Homosexuality and religious.

TransmutingSoul · Nov 23, 2022

Trailblazer said:
Gosh darn Tony. Will you look it up for me later?

This is one I remember. Abdul'baha has a talk in this, maybe some answered questions?

".. Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments. Consider the light of the lamp. Though an external object may interfere with its radiance, the light itself continueth to shine with undiminished power. In like manner, every malady afflicting the body of man is an impediment that preventeth the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When it leaveth the body, however, it will evince such ascendancy, and reveal such influence as no force on earth can equal. Every pure, every refined and sanctified soul will be endowed with tremendous power, and shall rejoice with exceeding gladness." – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 174.

Sorry been busy, still am

Regards Tony

F1fan · Nov 23, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
Or, it will be the choice of the majority in the future. Time has a way of changing our current perceptions.

Regards Tony

Will it change your prejudical attitudes against gays? Or will you choose your religion over your fellow humans?

Trailblazer · Nov 23, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
This is one I remember. Abdul'baha has a talk in this, maybe some answered questions?

".. Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments. Consider the light of the lamp. Though an external object may interfere with its radiance, the light itself continueth to shine with undiminished power. In like manner, every malady afflicting the body of man is an impediment that preventeth the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When it leaveth the body, however, it will evince such ascendancy, and reveal such influence as no force on earth can equal. Every pure, every refined and sanctified soul will be endowed with tremendous power, and shall rejoice with exceeding gladness." – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 174.

Sorry been busy, still am

Regards Tony

Thanks, I know that passage very well, but what I was hoping for was a passage that says that being sexually repressed does not affect the spirit (soul).

dybmh said: ↑
So, if someone is physically unhealthy ( sexually repressed ) it effects their spirit.

Secret Chief · Nov 24, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
Or, it will be the choice of the majority in the future. Time has a way of changing our current perceptions.

Regards Tony

I'd like there to be more respect and less arrogance in the future. But you're stuck with your script aren't you.

CG Didymus · Nov 24, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
There are explanations as to what those stories may mean, we can choose to ponder those explanations.

Then the rest is left up to us to explore. We know the story of Adam is not how man was created in the physical realm, it does not fit into the evolution of the species.

So we all get to decide, what can it mean?

Same as Noah, the material research and records do not show a flood as described in the Bible was a material flood.

Regards Tony

That's fine. No flood, but why then believe in some alternative story about a possibly fictional character in the Bible? If the stories aren't true, then they were fiction... including the characters. Baha'is get so carried away with inventing symbolic meanings. The obvious meaning for Adam and Eve and with Noah is... obey God or bad things are going to happen. But I know it makes Baha'is feel as if they have discovered something that was so profound and hidden in all their symbolic interpretations.

CG Didymus · Nov 24, 2022

dybmh said:
Always is not needed. All that's needed is one example to prove that the Baha'i writing is false on this matter.

Bingo! Sexual repression is one of those ailments which effects both psychological and spiritual.

Always isn't needed for my argument. Just one example of crossover supports my claim.

OK, good examples. Thank you.

Here's what one Christian did...

Origen devoted himself to study and self-denial. When he was continually plagued by lust for women, he had himself castrated, an act known as an orchiectomy. Eusebius, the first and greatest Early Church historian, says of this young man’s act:

“While Origen was teaching in Alexandria, he did something that gave proof enough of his young and immature mind, but also of his faith and self-control. He took the saying, ‘There are those who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake’ (Matthew 19:12) in too literal and absurd a sense and he was eager to fulfill the Savior’s words and also to forestall any slander on the part of unbelievers for despite his youth, he held forth on religious matters before women as well as men. So he quickly carried out the Savior’s words, trying to do so unnoticed by most of his students. But however much he wished it, he could not possibly hide such a deed. Demetrius learned of it later, since he presided over the community there. He was astonished at Origen’s rash act.” Church History 6.8

Surgical castration is bilateral orchiectomy (removal of both testes). It drastically reduces the production of testosterones.

I knew several Christians that beat themselves up (figuratively) about having sexual desires. But what is a person supposed to do with raging hormones? Get castrated?

It seems as though we were created to have a strong desire to go out and have sex. Repressing those feelings wrecked the lives of those friends of mine. When one of them "gave in" to temptation, he felt so dirty and evil for having betrayed God and Jesus.

TransmutingSoul · Nov 24, 2022

Trailblazer said:
dybmh said: ↑
So, if someone is physically unhealthy ( sexually repressed ) it effects their spirit.

OK, most likely will not find that. I see "sexually repressed" is not a physical issue, by a psychological issue that may contribute to neglect of our physical condition.

CG Didymus said:
That's fine. No flood, but why then believe in some alternative story about a possibly fictional character in the Bible? If the stories aren't true, then they were fiction... including the characters. Baha'is get so carried away with inventing symbolic meanings. The obvious meaning for Adam and Eve and with Noah is... obey God or bad things are going to happen. But I know it makes Baha'is feel as if they have discovered something that was so profound and hidden in all their symbolic interpretations.

There is always floods CG look at Australia and other recent floods across the globe, we are again in the time of our judgement.

All the Biblical warnings are visiting us and it is all relative to those that are facing these events. Floods, fires, famine, earthquakes, plagues, pestilence.

I see if one person suffers, the whole body of humanity suffers, we are yet to become united, yet to come to this realisation. Nature shows we can live for many years, thinking we are healthy, unaware of the cancer eating away inside of us, but the time will come when we have to face our mortality.

There is so much we can learn from those stories, we just need to consider what they are saying to all humanity. All the stories are for a global audience, even if only told to a few the truth in those stories are applicable across all creations, both material and spiritual. There are many worlds of God where the story of Noah is applicable.

Regards Tony

CG Didymus · Nov 24, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
Or, it will be the choice of the majority in the future. Time has a way of changing our current perceptions.

Well, right now, strict religious moral codes that forbid homosexuality are losing out. More and more people and countries are becoming tolerant and accepting of them. So, you believe this is a negative thing for society? And that one-day religious rules banning homosexuality will be brought back?

TransmutingSoul · Nov 24, 2022

CG Didymus said:
I knew several Christians that beat themselves up (figuratively) about having sexual desires. But what is a person supposed to do with raging hormones? Get castrated?

A better education would help. When our desire to know and Love God becomes a dominant aspect of our lives, pleasures of the flesh become less desirable.

When we take all this projection of self pleasure out of focus, out of entertainment and the arts, things can change.

Much to discuss on all that, we have be warned about this in previous scriptures, the Baha'i Writings have the warnings also.

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Nov 24, 2022

CG Didymus said:
Well, right now, strict religious moral codes that forbid homosexuality are losing out. More and more people and countries are becoming tolerant and accepting of them. So, you believe this is a negative thing for society? And that one-day religious rules banning homosexuality will be brought back?

I see people will choose to embrace God's laws, no matter what challenges that subsequently gives them.

Then, we one and all, can and will work together to help each other face those challenges.

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Nov 24, 2022

Trailblazer said:
Thanks, I know that passage very well, but what I was hoping for was a passage that says that being sexually repressed does not affect the spirit (soul).

dybmh said: ↑
So, if someone is physically unhealthy ( sexually repressed ) it effects their spirit.

I was addressing the physically unhealthy side of the statement. To me sexually repressed is mainly a mental condition, not physical, but it can have physical triggers, chemical imbalances.

So I do not think we would find a passage that says it does not effect the soul, as mental conditions can cross over to aspects of healing.

Sexually repressed could require both spiritual means and physical means to address the issue, as there may be either a chemical imbalance, or a mental issue to address, or both.

Regards Tony

SkepticThinker · Nov 24, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
A better education would help. When our desire to know and Love God becomes a dominant aspect of our lives, pleasures of the flesh become less desirable.

When we take all this projection of self pleasure out of focus, out of entertainment and the arts, things can change.

Much to discuss on all that, we have be warned about this in previous scriptures, the Baha'i Writings have the warnings also.

Regards Tony

Why? "Self-pleasure," as you call it, is an enjoyable part of life.

TransmutingSoul · Nov 24, 2022

Secret Chief said:
I'd like there to be more respect and less arrogance in the future. But you're stuck with your script aren't you.

I see what Baha'u'llah gave us is from God.

I see It is not arrogance to share a God given Message that was for all humanity.

If you choose to see it is arrogance, then I am happy to receive your accusation, it is a bounty to me from you.

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Nov 24, 2022

SkepticThinker said:
Why? "Self-pleasure," as you call it, is an enjoyable part of life.

Self says it all.

Regards Tony

SkepticThinker · Nov 24, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
Self says it all.

Regards Tony

It really doesn't.

CG Didymus · Nov 24, 2022

SkepticThinker said:
It really doesn't.

I knew Christians and Baha'is that self-pleasured, so I was told, and also engaged in the enjoyment of fooling around with others. I'm sure there was a little bit of cognitive dissonance. But not enough that couldn't be ignored until they finished the job at hand. Religious rules don't work. They don't stop the behavior.

CG Didymus · Nov 24, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
There is so much we can learn from those stories, we just need to consider what they are saying to all humanity. All the stories are for a global audience, even if only told to a few the truth in those stories are applicable across all creations, both material and spiritual. There are many worlds of God where the story of Noah is applicable.

Yes, don't listen to God and God will get you. But if you want to invent your "symbolic" meanings, go ahead. It's like when people invent meanings to a song, and then the singer says that the song has nothing to do with what that person said. The simple, literal meaning of the flood was very meaningful and important to a lot of Jews and Christians. Why not to Baha'is? Because it doesn't fit into the Baha'i interpretation of how God does things. So, Baha'is make up something. And yes, meaningful to you, but two thousand or more years ago? The simple and literal meaning was good enough. Only recently did that meaning become impossible for many in modern society to believe.

TransmutingSoul · Nov 24, 2022

CG Didymus said:
I knew Christians and Baha'is that self-pleasured, so I was told, and also engaged in the enjoyment of fooling around with others. I'm sure there was a little bit of cognitive dissonance. But not enough that couldn't be ignored until they finished the job at hand. Religious rules don't work. They don't stop the behavior.

Only ones own self can.

Regards Tony

TransmutingSoul · Nov 24, 2022

CG Didymus said:
Yes, don't listen to God and God will get you. But if you want to invent your "symbolic" meanings, go ahead. It's like when people invent meanings to a song, and then the singer says that the song has nothing to do with what that person said. The simple, literal meaning of the flood was very meaningful and important to a lot of Jews and Christians. Why not to Baha'is? Because it doesn't fit into the Baha'i interpretation of how God does things. So, Baha'is make up something. And yes, meaningful to you, but two thousand or more years ago? The simple and literal meaning was good enough. Only recently did that meaning become impossible for many in modern society to believe.

We do not know what they thought.

Luckily God has given us more explanation to consider.

Regards Tony

Trailblazer · Nov 24, 2022

CG Didymus said:
The obvious meaning for Adam and Eve and with Noah is... obey God or bad things are going to happen. But I know it makes Baha'is feel as if they have discovered something that was so profound and hidden in all their symbolic interpretations.

No, Baha'is do not believe they have discovered anything profound or hidden that nobody else knows about.
Most liberal Christians discovered the same thing and thus believe these stories have symbolic meanings:

In previous centuries, almost all Christians believed in miracles as described in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). These included creation, the story of Adam and Eve, a talking serpent, the great flood of Noah, the drying up of the Red/Reed sea, a prophet riding on a talking ***, the sun stopping in the sky, etc. From the Christian Scriptures (New Testament), they believed in the virgin birth, the Christmas star, angels appearing to the shepherds, Jesus healing the sick, etc. Many, perhaps most, liberal Christians now believe that these stories are not to be interpreted literally as real events. Their faith has not been damaged by losing faith in the reality of these events. A growing number of liberals are now taking the final step by interpreting the stories of Jesus' resurrection and his appearances to his followers and to Paul as other than real events.

Beliefs of progressive Christians, secularists, etc. about Jesus' resurrection

Homosexuality and religious.

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