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Psychology behind America's gun culture.

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Father Heathen

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Wu Wei said:
first, fixed that for you

you have no idea if I even own a gun...what I take offense to is your approach...the attack.... butthurt..far from it.....
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Butthurt is a compound word, and I caught my typo before your reply, but nonetheless thanks for looking out! :thumbsup:
 
Estro Felino

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
It's a merely cultural thing, that has to do with the fact that newly American citizens used weapons to defend themselves from the army of the British Empire.

In my opinion it's a vicious cycle: law enforcement distrusts American citizens because they are potentially armed, according to the second amendment.
European law enforcement trusts European citizens because they know they are unarmed and harmless.

I am against the second amendment to be implemented in Europe because I believe in revolutions.
Revolutions are doable whenever the law enforcement and the armies stop obeying the élites and join the raging populace.
And the élites must not possess any weapon. They are unarmed.
 
Sand Dancer

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Estro Felino said:
It's a merely cultural thing, that has to do with the fact that newly American citizens used weapons to defend themselves from the army of the British Empire.

In my opinion it's a vicious cycle: law enforcement distrusts American citizens because they are potentially armed, according to the second amendment.
European law enforcement trusts European citizens because they know they are unarmed and harmless.

I am against the second amendment to be implemented in Europe because I believe in revolutions.
Revolutions are doable whenever the law enforcement and the armies stop obeying the élites and join the raging populace.
And the élites must not possess any weapon. They are unarmed.
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The word "harmless" stands out to me. It's not an insult, but I wonder if Americans are okay being described that way. Are Europeans okay being harmless?
 
Father Heathen

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Estro Felino said:
I am against the second amendment to be implemented in Europe because I believe in revolutions.
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Many Americans see it the other way around, that potential revolution is a reason to be armed. That guns give power to the people. Of course that is an illusion, and everytime someone in power posed a threat to our democracy and liberty, the gun crowd supported them rather than opposed.
 
Sand Dancer

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Father Heathen said:
Many Americans see it the other way around, that potential revolution is a reason to be armed. That guns give power to the people. Of course that is an illusion, and everytime someone in power posed a threat to our democracy and liberty, the gun crowd supported them rather than opposed.
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I wonder if those who feel least empowered in general want to use guns to feel powerful. Most gun owners are white males, so maybe they don't take kindly to sharing their historical pedestal with minorities and women, and those that don't have a positive sense of self, as opposed to ego, are angry and want to fight back. Just musing...
 
Orbit

Orbit

I'm a planet
In talking to gun owners, I find they hold some pretty strange beliefs. For example, the belief that they need to protect themselves against the government, which is itching to disarm them. I've said "do you really think you're going to win if they send the Army after you? With tanks, and drones?". The scenario is paranoid, and totally unrealistic. I think it has to do with some feeling of powerlessness, and guns make them feel more powerful.

Toxic masculinity is also at play, and that is often intertwined with domestic violence (often perpetrated by cops themselves), with guns being the phallic symbol of masculine power. In this case, it's like a dominance display. The fetishization of guns is tied up with this power/masculinity nexus, imo.

I've also spoken to hobbyists, and the bottom line for them is also really power and pleasure. They enjoy firing their guns because it gives them a sense of competence and power in an uncertain world. They seem oblivious to the obvious social problems that readily available assault weapon availability causes in America. I see it as profound lack of empathy and refusal to see an obvious cause and effect between easy availability and mass shootings.
 
Father Heathen

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Sand Dancer said:
I wonder if those who feel least empowered in general want to use guns to feel powerful. Most gun owners are white males, so maybe they don't take kindly to sharing their historical pedestal with minorities and women, and those that don't have a positive sense of self, as opposed to ego, are angry and want to fight back. Just musing...
Click to expand...
I'm sure insecurity, inadequacy, and paranoia have a lot to do with it.
 
Father Heathen

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Orbit said:
In talking to gun owners, I find they hold some pretty strange beliefs. For example, the belief that they need to protect themselves against the government, which is itching to disarm them. I've said "do you really think you're going to win if they send the Army after you? With tanks, and drones?". The scenario is paranoid, and totally unrealistic. I think it has to do with some feeling of powerlessness, and guns make them feel more powerful.

Toxic masculinity is also at play, and that is often intertwined with domestic violence (often perpetrated by cops themselves), with guns being the phallic symbol of masculine power. In this case, it's like a dominance display. The fetishization of guns is tied up with this power/masculinity nexus, imo.

I've also spoken to hobbyists, and the bottom line for them is also really power and pleasure. They enjoy firing their guns because it gives them a sense of competence and power in an uncertain world. They seem oblivious to the obvious social problems that readily available assault weapon availability causes in America. I see it as profound lack of empathy and refusal to see an obvious cause and effect between easy availability and mass shootings.
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I remember asking on here a few years back how civilians could expect to take on law enforcement or military that's better equipped, armed, and trained? "They'll be on our side!", which of course defeats their own argument.
 
Curious George

Curious George

Veteran Member
Father Heathen said:
Let's play armchair psychologists.

I suspect that many enthusiasts see guns as an extension/representation of their masculinity, and thus consider restrictions to be emasculating.
Perhaps even silently considering dead school children to be an acceptable cost.

What say you?
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let’s have a case study, you can share your analysis.

 
F

F1fan

Veteran Member
Wu Wei said:
nice, another that has no idea if I own a gun or not...or for that matter what my actual view is on gun laws and ownership....but, if you think that is a reason to use a gun...I pray to God you don't have one.....not a reason to use a gun now is it

see.... pro vs anti gun ownership posts and calling it a discussion makes about as much sense as saying let's have a Republican vs Democrat post and see if we can reach an understanding....to much emotion, and extremism on both sides of that...and not enough real discussion in a real attempt to actually fix anything
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Wu Wei said:
nice, another that has no idea if I own a gun or not...or for that matter what my actual view is on gun laws and ownership....but, if you think that is a reason to use a gun...I pray to God you don't have one.....not a reason to use a gun now is it

see.... pro vs anti gun ownership posts and calling it a discussion makes about as much sense as saying let's have a Republican vs Democrat post and see if we can reach an understanding....to much emotion, and extremism on both sides of that...and not enough real discussion in a real attempt to actually fix anything
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I didn’t say you had guns or not.

I did find your hysterical post emotional and reactionary. An attack post? How dare anyone be critical of America’s attitudes towards guns and gun regulations.

As a former gun dealer myself, I know firsthand that some of my clients committed federal crimes. The worst offender was a coworker of my best friend who bought five AR fifteens. Three of these guns were strawman purchases for three of his friends. The two he kept he converted to full automatic with kits that he bought online. I know this is a fact because we invited this guy to go shooting with us one day And we did not know that he had converted his gun to full automatic. We are at the field where we shoot for five minutes and he pulls out a gun and opens fire full automatic. Since there is a shooting range about a half a mile away and is often used by county and local police departments. I said we need to get the hell out of here right now because if someone heard this gun and the cops show up, we are all going to prison , so that was it for the day. I asked this guy what he did, and he said he admitted that he bought kits and converted both guns to full automatic, which is a federal crime. Buying guns for other people, called strawman, purchases, or also federal crimes. So do I call the BATF? hell no. I don’t trust these guys and I sure as hell don’t want to **** them off because you can bet they would want payback. Most gun owners are responsible. But many don’t want gun access reform which means unstable people still get them snd murder innocent people. Stricter gun laws won’t affect good citizens. But the gun lobby has been successful in pushing disinformation and fear of laws.
 
Sand Dancer

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Father Heathen said:
I'm sure insecurity, inadequacy, and paranoia have a lot to do with it.
Click to expand...

I try to look at things by how they help others. I am a gun owner but I
am fine with restrictions if it keeps more people safe. So many vote and act in ways that show they only care how something affects them. Screw others. Again, that uber individualism gets in the way. It feels good to help others. They should really love their neighbors as themselves.
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
Erebus said:
Based on my outsider's perspective, it seems like two of the biggest factors in some people's love of guns are fear and binary thinking.

One of the most common arguments against gun control is that you might need a gun to protect yourself and others. People cite the possibility of encountering home invaders, muggers or mass shooters (ironically IMO). I actually have a bit of sympathy for this argument if I'm honest. It's a scary world out there after all. Statistics aren't especially comforting either. Yes, you have a much lower chance of being killed by a home invader than you do by your own gun but the home invader is a far more terrifying prospect.

Another argument is that guns are a right and it's always dangerous to let the government take your rights away. Again, there is actually something to that as the US government has a long history of human rights abuses. I think the argument falls apart pretty quickly (do you think your militia can take on the government and win?) but there's at least some justification for it.

As for binary thinking. Whenever the gun debate comes up, the staunch pro-gun crowd will make a couple of similar claims. Firstly that, "If you take away legal guns, criminals will just get them illegally." and secondly that, "Even if there were no guns at all, people would still murder each other." I struggled to wrap my head around this for a long time but I think I comprehend it better now. They're essentially arguing that bad things happening is just a fact of life and there's nothing you can do about it. Reducing the probability of people dying is irrelevant as even a single gun death means that the country still has gun deaths. It also divides the world roughly into "good people" and "bad people." Since it's only the bad people who use guns to kill, why should the good people be punished for it?

I've tried to be as fair as I can here but ultimately I find some Americans' insistence of keeping their guns difficult to defend. The pro-gun arguments strike me as significantly weaker than the anti-gun arguments.
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It's not really a "pro-gun vs. no-gun" argument. It's a "real, effective gun regulation vs. ineffective pretend regulation" argument. You would think this would be a no-brainer but guns have become such a powerful macho/control fetish that no amount of reason, and no number of murdered school children will have any effect on it.
 
Heyo

Heyo

Veteran Member
Father Heathen said:
Let's play armchair psychologists.

I suspect that many enthusiasts see guns as an extension/representation of their masculinity, and thus consider restrictions to be emasculating.
Perhaps even silently considering dead school children to be an acceptable cost.

What say you?
Click to expand...
I already gave my armchair psychologist answer in the other thread: Yet another mass shooting...

And I like to add another observation. Very few here or the other thread (or the many previous threads) are willing to see any grey. You are either pro or contra guns. The gun lobby somehow managed to hammer that into so many people.
The "anti gun" crowd usually isn't. We want reasonable regulations without loopholes. But there seems to be no compromising with the gun nuts. I think that alone is worth to psycho analyse.
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Audie said:
I agree.

My admittedly very limited exposure to gun
owners in the USA was nothing like what
these would- be psychologists think.

Their words only say something about themselves and what looks to be a desire
to find omeone they can pose as being
superior to.


The gun owner were essentially hobhiests / collectors
much as someone with an enthusiasm for horses or cars or musical instruments.
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I suggest watching Red Dawn if you want a glimpse into American gun culture. It's a solid reflection of how tons of Americans believe that with no training, no experience, no organization a ragtag group of civilians with their guns can defend an entire town from an invading professional army (that too is a part of American gun culture, which is a pervasive and unrealistic fear of being attacked).
 
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