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Creationist Sentenced to 8,658 Years

Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Quintessence said:
In other words, you are drawing attention to a criminal conviction who happens to be a Turkish creationist for the expressed purpose of undermining creationism in the eyes of others, even though their "nonsense" doesn't actually have much to do with the crimes or convictions.

Yup, classic smear agenda... thanks for making that transparent for everyone. :thumbsup:
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But it does have quite a bit to do with it. Once again he would have have his wealth if it were not for spreading lies and nonsense. If a crime takes some money to pull off the source of the money becomes an issue. A homeless person would not have been able to accomplish the same crimes that Oktar did.
 
Jose Fly

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Quintessence said:
In other words, you are drawing attention to a criminal conviction who happens to be a Turkish creationist for the expressed purpose of undermining creationism in the eyes of others, even though their "nonsense" doesn't actually have much to do with the crimes or convictions.

Yup, classic smear agenda... thanks for making that transparent for everyone. :thumbsup:
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If I can draw your attention to the part you quoted from me..."a potential deterrent against future proliferation of his nonsense".

So it's about undermining his creationist arguments and material, no different than a prosecutor using a defendant's lies in previous testimony to undermine their credibility in other areas.

Please be more careful next time.
 
Twilight Hue

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Jose Fly said:
Adnan Oktar: TV cult preacher jailed for 8,658 years in Turkey

A court in Turkey has sentenced a televangelist, who surrounded himself with young women he referred to as his "kittens", to 8,658 years in prison.

Adnan Oktar, who has been described as a cult leader, was convicted of sexual assault and abuse of minors.

Oktar, 66, fronted his own television channel, through which he delivered religious sermons.

He is a fierce opponent of the theory of evolution, and wrote a widely mocked book on creationism.

He was originally given a jail sentence of 1,075 years but an appeal court ordered a retrial involving 215 defendants.

Ten of them were also given 8,658 years in prison by the court in Istanbul. Many of the other defendants were given shorter terms.​

In EvC circles he was known as "Harun Yahya", author of the "Atlas of Creation" and often referred to as the Islamic Kent Hovind. I guess the two now have something else in common....prison time.
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That must be some awful good construction material to have a prison building last for 8656 years.
 
Evangelicalhumanist

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Revoltingest said:
That "creationist" isn't the most salient
feature in the context of his crimes.
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It is, however, what he is best known for in our part of the world. I've been aware of him (and chuckling at much of his writing) for years. But I really had little idea that he was leader of a sex cult (why didn't I ever try that? :p), or his preaching of his version of "true Islam," but that's because I don't watch any Turkish television.
 
Quintessence

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Subduction Zone said:
But it does have quite a bit to do with it. Once again he would have have his wealth if it were not for spreading lies and nonsense. If a crime takes some money to pull off the source of the money becomes an issue. A homeless person would not have been able to accomplish the same crimes that Oktar did.
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Sure, being a criminal mastermind with money helps. What does that have to do with creationism, exactly? Why are we smearing creationism instead of the accumulation of wealth or fame and using it in the wrong ways?

To be blunt, what the $#@% is the point of brining creationism, specifically, into this at all? Does creationism make you rich? Does it make you a rapist? No? Then why the $#@% is it relevant?
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Quintessence said:
Sure, being a criminal mastermind with money helps. What does that have to do with creationism, exactly? Why are we smearing creationism instead of the accumulation of wealth or fame and using it in the wrong ways?

To be blunt, what the $#@% is the point of brining creationism, specifically, into this at all? Does creationism make you rich? Does it make you a rapist? No? Then why the $#@% is it relevant?
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No. It is not smearing creationism any more than it would be smearing baseball if the man guilty of a crime was an ex-baseball player. and one said "baseball all-star convicted of running brothels.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Evangelicalhumanist said:
It is, however, what he is best known for in our part of the world. I've been aware of him (and chuckling at much of his writing) for years. But I really had little idea that he was leader of a sex cult (why didn't I ever try that? :p), or his preaching of his version of "true Islam," but that's because I don't watch any Turkish television.
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So in Canuckistan, he's known for the
most minor of his shortcomings, eh.
 
Quintessence

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Subduction Zone said:
No. It is not smearing creationism any more than it would be smearing baseball if the man guilty of a crime was an ex-baseball player. and one said "baseball all-star convicted of running brothels.
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It's possible you're genuinely not aware that precisely this strategy is routinely used in smear campaigns. Not everybody grew up with a media specialist.

For some basics, see for example - https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/youll-cry-when-you-realize-how-easily-media-can-manipulate-you-180953183/

See also - How Headlines Change the Way We Think | YaleGlobal Online
And perhaps especially - First impressions are lasting impressions: A primacy effect in memory for repetitions - Psychonomic Bulletin & Review
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Quintessence said:
It's possible you're genuinely not aware that precisely this strategy is routinely used in smear campaigns. Not everybody grew up with a media specialist.

For some basics, see for example - https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/youll-cry-when-you-realize-how-easily-media-can-manipulate-you-180953183/

See also - How Headlines Change the Way We Think | YaleGlobal Online
And perhaps especially - First impressions are lasting impressions: A primacy effect in memory for repetitions - Psychonomic Bulletin & Review
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That may be, but it is still hardly a "smear campaign". The fact is that the man earned his money by lying to others and when one is dishonest in one area one is often dishonest in others. I will have to admit to a fair amount of schadenfreude when someone that abused others gets a bit of justice in the end.
 
Left Coast

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Quintessence said:
Because someone decided to add superfluous information to the story, a practice that is routinely done by those who attempt to smear particular groups for other agendas.

"[Insert racial minority here] robs gas station on 5th Street."

What did their race have to do with their crimes? Probably nothing, but let's draw attention to it anyway because racism.

"[insert (ir)religious group here] found guilty of tax evasion."

What did their (ir)religion have to do with it? Probably nothing, but let's draw attention to it anyway because prejudice.

Not saying the OP did this on purpose or to push an agenda, but this is done and it is done often. I don't blame anyone for calling them out for it on the suspicion.
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What would you have titled it? Fundamentalist gets convicted? Cult leader gets convicted? Are you glad he was convicted?

Instead of focusing on the title, let's focus on a child predator being behind bars.
 
RestlessSoul

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone said:
That may be, but it is still hardly a "smear campaign". The fact is that the man earned his money by lying to others and when one is dishonest in one area one is often dishonest in others. I will have to admit to a fair amount of schadenfreude when someone that abused others gets a bit of justice in the end.
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You miss the point. It’s not the subject himself who’s being smeared, it’s creationists in general, by association with him.

Aren’t there strong enough arguments against creationism, without having to imply a link between that archaic doctrine and criminality?
 
RestlessSoul

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Left Coast said:
What would you have titled it? Fundamentalist gets convicted? Cult leader gets convicted? Are you glad he was convicted?

Instead of focusing on the title, let's focus on a child predator being behind bars.
Click to expand...


The title is the very reason the focus is on something other than the guy’s criminality. And I imagine that’s no accident on the part of the headline writer.
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
RestlessSoul said:
You miss the point. It’s not the subject himself who’s being smeared, it’s creationists in general, by association with him.

Aren’t there strong enough arguments against creationism, without having to imply a link between that archaic doctrine and criminality?
Click to expand...

No, it is more about seeing a purveyor of lies brought to justice. I would be even happier if it was Trump. There are a lot of people that we al know should be in prison. There was no smear of creationists there. To be honest none is needed.
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Heyo said:
Assault or at least insult. They are insulting my intelligence and assaulting everybody's education.

And as the punishment should fit the crime, they'd have to sit through evolution 101 until they get at least a "D" in the final test.
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The same with in effect with strong naturalists, who claim it is an objective fact that the world is natural.
But that is not all.
For education everybody should learn in effect the limits of critical thinking, skepticism, objective reason, logic and truth/proof/evidence and learn that all worldviews are in effect cultural narratives for in effect limited cognitive, cultural and moral relativism.
Further they should all learn the limits of intelligence, rationality and be critical of words like real, reality, normal and a lot of other words, which have no objective referent.

So all of those humans, which cover both some religious and some non-religious humans are insulting to my intelligence and what can be learn through education.

See, I can do that too.
 
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