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rosends · Nov 14, 2022

dybmh said:
OK, ok, but the prophecy says "call" not "know". Would they as secular atheists "call" Jesus "Mighty God" and "Wonderful Counselor" and "Prince of Peace? If you say yes, I guess I'll believe you. But it is hard to believe.

And then there's still the issue with "the government is on his shoulders" which isn't true. Notice that the entire prophecy is connected by "and". "The government will be on his shoulders" is first *and* he will be called ...

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One thing I saw in that image is that the word "Neetan" (correctly listed as a verb in Nif'al) is a past tense presentation so the "is given" should read "WAS given" and "yoolad" (also, correctly linked to Binyan Pu'al) is also in the past tense (WAS born).

metis · Nov 14, 2022

BilliardsBall said:
I would respond He fulfilled all the prophecies that are clearly about His life, death and resurrection, and prophecies about the church age, but none of the prophecies about His glorious Return and Armageddon, which is precisely HOW these things should work!

That's not correct, but I'm reluctant to post the evidence.

BilliardsBall · Nov 15, 2022

dybmh said:
OK, ok, but the prophecy says "call" not "know". Would they as secular atheists "call" Jesus "Mighty God" and "Wonderful Counselor" and "Prince of Peace? If you say yes, I guess I'll believe you. But it is hard to believe.

And then there's still the issue with "the government is on his shoulders" which isn't true. Notice that the entire prophecy is connected by "and". "The government will be on his shoulders" is first *and* he will be called ...

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The government of Heaven IS on His shoulders (NT) AND Messiah will shoulder the government when He reigns for the Millennium (Tanakh).

Of course, there are hundreds more prophecies we can look at.

BilliardsBall · Nov 15, 2022

metis said:
That's not correct, but I'm reluctant to post the evidence.

I would think so since your claim would invalidate our Christian faith!

BilliardsBall · Nov 15, 2022

rosends said:
Well, it would require a small group of people with an agenda to seek so that they find, as it were and then have loads of people subscribe to an authority without thinking for themselves. Gosh...that never happens.

Except that's not a prophecy, nor an aspect of the messianic identity. Talk about "extraordinary claims" -- that is an invention used to justify that agendized approach to the text.

Except that didn't happen. No peace during his time. Not a prince of peace. Any claim that this is about some nebulous future "second coming" is another extraordinary claim.

that second one (Joel 4:10) hasn't happened either.

Your first point stretches all credulity, that THOUSANDS of Bible expositors, working for two millennia, diligently studying Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek (including with rabbinical aid) are ALL subscribing to authority without care.

Useless to respond to the rest of what you wrote since your EXTREME bias is showing.

metis · Nov 15, 2022

BilliardsBall said:
I would think so since your claim would invalidate our Christian faith!

Only if you fell into the trap of literalism. Even Aquinas realized this as being a problem.

rosends · Nov 15, 2022

BilliardsBall said:
Your first point stretches all credulity, that THOUSANDS of Bible expositors, working for two millennia, diligently studying Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek (including with rabbinical aid) are ALL subscribing to authority without care.

It starts with a small group that innovates in search of a reason for a separation. Then followers follow, standing on the shoulders of the ones before them. Your claim is that Judaism, which does the same thing, is incorrect. Thousands of sages, scholars and students, dating back from before Jesus was born, understand the text differently but you see it all as a mass misconception and a reliance on earlier authorities which got it wrong before Jesus was born. All I'm saying is that I can trace your error to the (intentional) misunderstandings of text after Jesus was born.

BilliardsBall said:
Useless to respond to the rest of what you wrote since your EXTREME bias is showing.

Well, blinders seem to work for you as a way to avoid dealing with things, so go with that.

dybmh · Nov 15, 2022

BilliardsBall said:
The government of Heaven IS on His shoulders (NT) AND Messiah will shoulder the government when He reigns for the Millennium (Tanakh).

Of course, there are hundreds more prophecies we can look at.

OK, I'll give you that as a maybe since I'm optimistic. But do you think your secular professors "called" Jesus "Wonderful Counselor Mighty God Everlasting Father Prince of Peace" or would they just "call" him Jesus?

BilliardsBall · Nov 16, 2022

metis said:
Only if you fell into the trap of literalism. Even Aquinas realized this as being a problem.

The problem isn't literalism, the problem is Jesus would be a liar in what He says plainly.

BilliardsBall · Nov 16, 2022

rosends said:
It starts with a small group that innovates in search of a reason for a separation. Then followers follow, standing on the shoulders of the ones before them. Your claim is that Judaism, which does the same thing, is incorrect. Thousands of sages, scholars and students, dating back from before Jesus was born, understand the text differently but you see it all as a mass misconception and a reliance on earlier authorities which got it wrong before Jesus was born. All I'm saying is that I can trace your error to the (intentional) misunderstandings of text after Jesus was born.

Well, blinders seem to work for you as a way to avoid dealing with things, so go with that.

" . . . dating back from before Jesus was born . . . "

Absolute nonsense, there are hundreds of articles readily available at the touch of your fingertips and Google that the most ancient Jewish sources saw the prophecies as I see them. For example, THE ENTIRE SEPTUAGINT AS WRITTEN BY OUR JEWISH PEOPLE.

Most of the entire argument started with "BUT THE JEWISH NT WRITERS KEEP QUOTING SEPTUAGINT PROPHECIES".

BilliardsBall · Nov 16, 2022

dybmh said:
OK, I'll give you that as a maybe since I'm optimistic. But do you think your secular professors "called" Jesus "Wonderful Counselor Mighty God Everlasting Father Prince of Peace" or would they just "call" him Jesus?

YES--since almost ALL my Judeo/Christian teachers at a secular university were hateful, atheist liberals who grew up in church.

rosends · Nov 16, 2022

BilliardsBall said:
" . . . dating back from before Jesus was born . . . "

Absolute nonsense,

No, not non-sense, but thanks for the empty claim.

BilliardsBall said:
there are hundreds of articles readily available at the touch of your fingertips and Google that the most ancient Jewish sources saw the prophecies as I see them. For example, THE ENTIRE SEPTUAGINT AS WRITTEN BY OUR JEWISH PEOPLE.

You should look up the definition of "non-sequitur". The existence of the Septuagint is not related to the interpretation of prophecies. The existence of the Septuagint is also unrelated to the present text called "septuagint".

BilliardsBall said:
Most of the entire argument started with "BUT THE JEWISH NT WRITERS KEEP QUOTING SEPTUAGINT PROPHECIES".

The writers of the gospels (who might have been Jewish but the authorship is subject to much debate) were the ones operating according to a schismatic agenda so they found what they wanted to find and built on that, even if it was divergent and erroneous.

metis · Nov 16, 2022

BilliardsBall said:
The problem isn't literalism, the problem is Jesus would be a liar in what He says plainly.

If you take the literalistic approach, yes.

Ancient Asian approaches to history were generally not objective but subjective. And since the Gospels were written decades after Jesus was executed, there was plenty of time for elaboration and enhancement. These are not lies but are ways to show love for he who they adored. After Gandhi was assassinated, we saw much the same begin to take place.

BilliardsBall · Nov 18, 2022

rosends said:
No, not non-sense, but thanks for the empty claim.

You should look up the definition of "non-sequitur". The existence of the Septuagint is not related to the interpretation of prophecies. The existence of the Septuagint is also unrelated to the present text called "septuagint".

The writers of the gospels (who might have been Jewish but the authorship is subject to much debate) were the ones operating according to a schismatic agenda so they found what they wanted to find and built on that, even if it was divergent and erroneous.

Explain their schismatic agenda in the context of persecution from both Rome and the Jewish people down to friends and family and exclusion from Jewish life.

BilliardsBall · Nov 18, 2022

metis said:
If you take the literalistic approach, yes.

Ancient Asian approaches to history were generally not objective but subjective. And since the Gospels were written decades after Jesus was executed, there was plenty of time for elaboration and enhancement. These are not lies but are ways to show love for he who they adored. After Gandhi was assassinated, we saw much the same begin to take place.

If there's much "elaboration and enhancement", how can I know for certain Jesus is Savior or God or the guarantor of eternal life?

rosends · Nov 18, 2022

BilliardsBall said:
Explain their schismatic agenda in the context of persecution from both Rome and the Jewish people down to friends and family and exclusion from Jewish life.

they looked for instant gratification, embraced extreme reform which absolved them of traditional observance and wished for a messianic figure though none had come who satisfied the obligations. Therefore, they invented a theology that epitomized those ideals. All Jews were being oppressed so crying victim because of Rome is a red herring as they were no different from anyone. And the persecution by Jews was because not only were they publicly working to undermine Judaism, but they were trying to draw others into their error by means of their misinterpreattions and agenda.

Hope this helps.

rosends · Nov 18, 2022

BilliardsBall said:
If there's much "elaboration and enhancement", how can I know for certain Jesus is Savior or God or the guarantor of eternal life?

exactly!

pearl · Nov 18, 2022

metis said:
And since the Gospels were written decades after Jesus was executed, there was plenty of time for elaboration and enhancement. These are not lies but are ways to show love for he who they adored.

One way to look at it, first we have the 'confession' of faith by the earliest communities, with Paul
'handing' on what was 'given to him', that Jesus lives, at least 20 years after the D/R. By the time anything is penned, narrative is added to the that confession. And until we accept the theology and christology at work in those who finally wrote we will continue to miss the whole by cherry picking the details.

metis · Nov 18, 2022

BilliardsBall said:
If there's much "elaboration and enhancement", how can I know for certain Jesus is Savior or God or the guarantor of eternal life?

In the area of theology, certainty is very hard to determine.

IMO, the main thing I am certain of is that Jesus' message of the "law of love" resonates with me as it makes so much sense.

BilliardsBall · Nov 21, 2022

rosends said:
they looked for instant gratification, embraced extreme reform which absolved them of traditional observance and wished for a messianic figure though none had come who satisfied the obligations. Therefore, they invented a theology that epitomized those ideals. All Jews were being oppressed so crying victim because of Rome is a red herring as they were no different from anyone. And the persecution by Jews was because not only were they publicly working to undermine Judaism, but they were trying to draw others into their error by means of their misinterpreattions and agenda.

Hope this helps.

Where were they absolved of traditional observance? Paul went to Rome after rushing back to Jerusalem to take a vow while observing a high holy day.

As important or even more important, I find your claim bizarre that these people risked martyrdom for "extreme reform which absolved them of traditional observance". We live by Torah, but we usually don't die by [avoiding] Torah as Jews!

Of course, the "they" in your "they invented a theology" is a DOZEN teams of writers, apostles and scribal teams, who are usually criticized for offering differing accounts, therefore avoiding (to my way of thinking) collusion.

Also, they claimed to have seen the resurrected Yeshua, not merely "we invented new theology".

I must disagree with you.

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