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With bafflement upon bafflement!

idea

Question Everything
The Bible is very clear that this world is a battleground for the souls of men and women. Satan appears early in scripture, and he does not depart until the very end.

In the meantime, each human soul is susceptible to deception and lies. There are counterfeit powers at work, and God is not ignorant of the need to provide his followers with a shield against evil. If you read 1 Corinthians 12:10, you will see that 'discerning of spirits' is a power given to the true Church.

Everyone believes they are the "true" church.

I could never love or follow such a "god", who only selects a few, and hates everyone else. Low student success rate, few followers, little flock = worthless god who doesn't save all humans, who doesn't protect, doesn't guide...

I call bs. Everyone who believes they are the only ones? the "real" authority? everyone else is led astray? BS. Prideful jerks who look down on others, believe in a little god with a little flock.

The Bible isn't clear on anything.

It's not about discerning spirits.

It's about being an honest, kind, hard-working person.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Convince me you will value what I say.

Nope the speaker in 61 is a prophet. The chapter is prophecy, no one is being saved.

You are being deceptive. How serpenty. The message is NOT follow the law. That's a lie. The message is believe in Jesus, in other words, bite the poison apple live enternally in Christ.

Christ *is* the end... of the law. You've been caught lying. You've made judgements about my righteousness, yet you're not keeping your own house in order.
Regarding lsaiah 61.

You say that the speaker is a prophet; yet, the role of the prophet is to deliver a message! The subject of prophecy cannot be the prophet himself.

The evidence that lsaiah 61:1,2 are about the Messiah comes from other passages in Isaiah, and from other prophets.

Let's take a look at lsaiah 11:1,2 first. Here we read that 'there shall come a rod out of the stem of Jesse...', which is universally accepted as referring to the Messiah, son of David. Then we read that 'the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him' and that 'with righteousness shall he judge the poor' (verse 4).

Next, we move to lsaiah 42. In verse 1 it says, 'Behold my servant, whom l uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; l have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.'

If one follows the consistency of phrase usage, then this is another reference to the anointed descendant of Jesse. In verses 6,7 lsaiah goes on to say, 'l the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.'

In lsaiah 49:6, it says, 'And he said, lt is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of lsrael: l will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the the end of the earth'.

To confirm the consistency of the subject, we find these things said about God's servant in chapter 49:8,9: 'ln an acceptable time have l heard thee, and in a day of salvation have l helped thee: and l will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.'

Finally, we come to lsaiah 61:1,2, where the revelation becomes 'first person'. This is the culmination of all previous references to the Spirit of God resting upon God's chosen one. Here we have words that should sound familiar:
'The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,...'

The same themes arise in each of these passages from lsaiah. They mention the anointing, the acceptable year, righteous judgement amongst the poor, a light amongst the Gentiles, and the delivering of souls from prison.

The role of the Suffering Servant is to deliver mankind from sin, for without deliverance from sin a man cannot fulfil the law of God. This is exactly what Jesus came to do.

Those who await the coming of the Messiah now, are awaiting the vengeance and judgement of God. For, if one rejects the mercy that is presently on offer, one is left with only the words of lsaiah 61:2 '..and the day of vengeance of our God;'

To my understanding, there remains one week in the prophetic calendar, when God renews his offer of salvation to the Jewish nation. If the people do not recognise the one who was pierced, and mourn, then they will not find salvation in the coming Messiah.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
What does that mean? "inspired by God" is a rather vague claim. We know that does not mean that it is true.

And you misunderstood the verse that you copied that from.

And now your playing silly word games with your holy book. That borders on blasphemy.
How can you talk about blasphemy, when you admit to knowing nothing about God?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Regarding lsaiah 61.

You say that the speaker is a prophet; yet, the role of the prophet is to deliver a message! The subject of prophecy cannot be the prophet himself.

The evidence that lsaiah 61:1,2 are about the Messiah comes from other passages in Isaiah, and from other prophets.

Let's take a look at lsaiah 11:1,2 first. Here we read that 'there shall come a rod out of the stem of Jesse...', which is universally accepted as referring to the Messiah, son of David. Then we read that 'the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him' and that 'with righteousness shall he judge the poor' (verse 4).

Next, we move to lsaiah 42. In verse 1 it says, 'Behold my servant, whom l uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; l have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.'

If one follows the consistency of phrase usage, then this is another reference to the anointed descendant of Jesse. In verses 6,7 lsaiah goes on to say, 'l the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.'

In lsaiah 49:6, it says, 'And he said, lt is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of lsrael: l will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the the end of the earth'.

To confirm the consistency of the subject, we find these things said about God's servant in chapter 49:8,9: 'ln an acceptable time have l heard thee, and in a day of salvation have l helped thee: and l will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.'

Finally, we come to lsaiah 61:1,2, where the revelation becomes 'first person'. This is the culmination of all previous references to the Spirit of God resting upon God's chosen one. Here we have words that should sound familiar:
'The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,...'

The same themes arise in each of these passages from lsaiah. They mention the anointing, the acceptable year, righteous judgement amongst the poor, a light amongst the Gentiles, and the delivering of souls from prison.

The role of the Suffering Servant is to deliver mankind from sin, for without deliverance from sin a man cannot fulfil the law of God. This is exactly what Jesus came to do.

Those who await the coming of the Messiah now, are awaiting the vengeance and judgement of God. For, if one rejects the mercy that is presently on offer, one is left with only the words of lsaiah 61:2 '..and the day of vengeance of our God;'

To my understanding, there remains one week in the prophetic calendar, when God renews his offer of salvation to the Jewish nation. If the people do not recognise the one who was pierced, and mourn, then they will not find salvation in the coming Messiah.

You should study the history of Isaiah. You appear to be getting quite a bit of it wrong. There were at least three different authors for the book.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
How can you talk about blasphemy, when you admit to knowing nothing about God?
What? I never admitted to any such thing. One thing that you will learn is that if you do a proper study of the Bible there is a huge chance that you will no longer believe it. Many that do not believe it do so because they have a superior understanding of it, not an inferior one.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Everyone believes they are the "true" church.

I could never love or follow such a "god", who only selects a few, and hates everyone else. Low student success rate, few followers, little flock = worthless god who doesn't save all humans, who doesn't protect, doesn't guide...

I call bs. Everyone who believes they are the only ones? the "real" authority? everyone else is led astray? BS. Prideful jerks who look down on others, believe in a little god with a little flock.

The Bible isn't clear on anything.

It's not about discerning spirits.

It's about being an honest, kind, hard-working person.
Well, you've just made your position very clear. You reject the life of Jesus Christ, and the reason he came to earth.

Matthew 20:28. 'Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many'.

I can understand your anger, but in all honesty l have nothing to boast but Christ. He gave his life for me, he sent his Holy Spirit to lead me, and all l do is follow in faith. Any works done by me are done in his name and with his blessing.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The blind lead the blind.
Now you are talking about yourself. As the saying goes "The truth shall set you free". Studying the Bible leads to the truth and one will quite often be free from it.

I first learned of this a good thirty years ago. Even then people that went to seminary often ended up being atheists. When one studies the history of the Bible and learns the language so that one can interpret it more exactly its flaws can become overpowering. And if you claim not to see any you have only told us that you are not a student of the Bible.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Now you are talking about yourself. As the saying goes "The truth shall set you free". Studying the Bible leads to the truth and one will quite often be free from it.

I first learned of this a good thirty years ago. Even then people that went to seminary often ended up being atheists. When one studies the history of the Bible and learns the language so that one can interpret it more exactly its flaws can become overpowering. And if you claim not to see any you have only told us that you are not a student of the Bible.
You're good for a laugh!

So, the greatest scholars must all be atheists! It's a good thing Jesus never went to your seminary! And Paul, what a novice!!
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Not what I said or implied. But to be an honest scholar being an atheist seems to help.
You say that God does not exist. Once you get locked into such logic, there is no room for the supernatural.

Yet, in contrast, the Bible begins with the statement that God exists, and creates. This immediately opens up two realms to exploration. The first is the material and visible world, and the second is the invisible, or spiritual realm.

What good does it do to have an atheist study the Bible, when he openly admits to denying the very premise on which the Bible is founded? An agnostic is at least showing signs of open-mindedness!
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You say that God does not exist. Once you get locked into such logic, there is no room for the supernatural.

Where did I claim that?

Yet, in contrast, the Bible begins with the statement that God exists, and creates. This immediately opens up two realms to exploration. The first is the material and visible world, and the second is the invisible, or spiritual realm.

What good does it do to have an atheist study the Bible, when he openly admits to denying the very premise on which the Bible is founded? An agnostic is at least showing signs of open-mindedness!

But an atheist does not do that. Plus many, in fact probably most Bible scholars started out as Christians. Why are you not curious as to what they found that changed their minds?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Where did I claim that?



But an atheist does not do that. Plus many, in fact probably most Bible scholars started out as Christians. Why are you not curious as to what they found that changed their minds?
If you do not claim to be an atheist, then your posts certainly convey the beliefs of an atheist.

Tell me, in plain speech, what you do believe.

Then, maybe, you could give me one specific reason why you believe some students lose faith in the Bible.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
If you do not claim to be an atheist, then your posts certainly convey the beliefs of an atheist.

Tell me, in plain speech, what you do believe.

Then, maybe, you could give me one specific reason why you believe some students lose faith in the Bible.
OK, why didn't you admit that you do not know what an atheist is?

Can you please try to debate properly?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
ok

The law is finished.

Faith not law.

Grace not law.
Proverbs 19:9
New International Version
A false witness will not go unpunished, and whoever pours out lies will perish.

New Living Translation
A false witness will not go unpunished, and a liar will be destroyed.

English Standard Version
A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will perish.

Berean Standard Bible
A false witness will not go unpunished, and one who pours out lies will perish.

King James Bible
A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.

New King James Version
A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who speaks lies shall perish.

New American Standard Bible
A false witness will not go unpunished, And one who declares lies will perish.

NASB 1995
A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who tells lies will perish.

NASB 1977
A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who tells lies will perish.

Amplified Bible
A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who breathes lies will perish.

Christian Standard Bible
A false witness will not go unpunished, and one who utters lies perishes.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
A false witness will not go unpunished, and one who utters lies perishes.

American Standard Version
A false witness shall not be unpunished; And he that uttereth lies shall perish.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
A false witness will not be spared, and he that speaks lies will be destroyed.

Contemporary English Version
Dishonest witnesses and liars will be destroyed.

Douay-Rheims Bible
A false witness shall not be unpunished: and he that speaketh lies, shall perish.

Good News Translation
No one who tells lies in court can escape punishment; he is doomed.

International Standard Version
A witness to lies will not go unpunished; the teller of falsehoods will perish.

JPS Tanakh 1917
A false witness shall not be unpunished; And he that breatheth forth lies shall perish.

Literal Standard Version
A false witness is not acquitted, And whoever breathes out lies perishes.

New American Bible
The false witness will not go unpunished, and whoever utters lies will perish.

NET Bible
A false witness will not go unpunished, and the one who spouts out lies will perish.

New Revised Standard Version
A false witness will not go unpunished, and the liar will perish.

New Heart English Bible
A false witness shall not be unpunished. He who utters lies shall perish.

World English Bible
A false witness shall not be unpunished. He who utters lies shall perish.

Young's Literal Translation
A false witness is not acquitted, And whoso breatheth out lies perisheth.
What your long list of quotations fails to address is the question of whether living by grace means breaking the law of Moses.

The reason that Jesus summarised the law in just two commandments was to demonstrate what lay at the heart of the law.

Can you tell me which of the 613 commandments are broken when we love God and our neighbour?
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
OK, why didn't you admit that you do not know what an atheist is?

Can you please try to debate properly?
In your post #61, you said that there does not appear to be any such thing as the Holy Spirit. This, to me, is a clear admission that you do not believe in God, for God is Holy Spirit.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
In your post #61, you said that there does not appear to be any such thing as the Holy Spirit. This, to me, is a clear admission that you do not believe in God, for God is Holy Spirit.
No, your version of God is the Holy Spirit. That is not even the version of God of all Christians. And I do not believe in any God.

As to why so many Christian scholars become atheists you would probably have to ask them. One likely reason would be the endless self contradictions in the Bible.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Regarding lsaiah 61.

You say that the speaker is a prophet; yet, the role of the prophet is to deliver a message! The subject of prophecy cannot be the prophet himself.

The evidence that lsaiah 61:1,2 are about the Messiah comes from other passages in Isaiah, and from other prophets.

Let's take a look at lsaiah 11:1,2 first. Here we read that 'there shall come a rod out of the stem of Jesse...', which is universally accepted as referring to the Messiah, son of David. Then we read that 'the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him' and that 'with righteousness shall he judge the poor' (verse 4).
Completely 100% false conclusion.

Judges 3:9-10 - Osneil "the savior" had the spirit of the Lord on him
Judges 6:34 - Gideon had the spirit of the Lord on him
Judges 11:29 - Yiftach had the spirit of the Lord on him
Judges 14:6 - Shimshon had the spirit of the Lord on him
1 Samuel 10:1 & 1 Samuel 10:10 - Saul is annointed and the spirit of God was on him
Ezekiel 11:5 - The spirit of the Lord was on him
2 Chronicles 15:11 - Azariah had the spirit of God on him
2 Chronicles 20:14 - Yahaziel had the spirit of the Lord on him
2 Chronicles 24:20 - Zecharia had the spirit of God on him

The spirit of the Lord resting on or coming to, in, an individual is a prophet.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
What your long list of quotations fails to address is the question of whether living by grace means breaking the law of Moses.

The reason that Jesus summarised the law in just two commandments was to demonstrate what lay at the heart of the law.

Can you tell me which of the 613 commandments are broken when we love God and our neighbour?
Well that's easy. Idol worship done in love breaks the law of Moses. Exodus 20:4, Deuteronomy 5:8-9.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Completely 100% false conclusion.

Judges 3:9-10 - Osneil "the savior" had the spirit of the Lord on him
Judges 6:34 - Gideon had the spirit of the Lord on him
Judges 11:29 - Yiftach had the spirit of the Lord on him
Judges 14:6 - Shimshon had the spirit of the Lord on him
1 Samuel 10:1 & 1 Samuel 10:10 - Saul is annointed and the spirit of God was on him
Ezekiel 11:5 - The spirit of the Lord was on him
2 Chronicles 15:11 - Azariah had the spirit of God on him
2 Chronicles 20:14 - Yahaziel had the spirit of the Lord on him
2 Chronicles 24:20 - Zecharia had the spirit of God on him

The spirit of the Lord resting on or coming to, in, an individual is a prophet.
Yes, the Spirit of God rests on all prophets, and Jesus was a prophet. The difference between the prophets of the OT and the Messiah is that the Holy Spirit, in full measure, rests upon the Messiah. This is only possible if the faith of the individual is not corrupted by sin.

What are the prophets looking forward to, if not the Messianic era? The prophets you mention all prophesy of a future time, when an extraordinary individual is anointed as king over Israel. None of the prophets you mention can, for example, claim to be a light to the Gentiles. None of the prophets you mention have the power to deliver prisoners from their (sinful) prisons.

Ezekiel 37:24 is a prophecy that Jews use as evidence of the future Messiah. The verse speaks of 'David my servant' being king over Judah and Israel, 'and they shall all have one shepherd'.

Can you not see the link between the prophecies of Isaiah and those of Ezekiel? They each speak of the same Messiah, as do all the prophets.

Who is your shepherd?
 
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