With bafflement upon bafflement!

pearl said:

It is a Christian reading, as interpreted from the Septuagint most probably. But we also know that Jewish expectation of a messiah was not to be a divinity.

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This was not the expectation of all.

Simeon was a devout Jew, and God told him that he would not see death until he had seen the Messiah. When he did see the infant Jesus, he said, 'Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.'

Now, there are numerous passages in the Hebrew scriptures that indicate that the Christ, the Messiah, is not just a man. And in the passage from Luke 2, quoted above, it is clear that Simeon understood the Messiah to be the salvation of God. This creates a problem for those who think of the Christ as the son of David, but not as the son of God. For in lsaiah 43:11, and Hosea 13:4, it states categorically that there is only one Saviour, and that is God! The Saviour of mankind is not just a man.

This raises a very real and pertinent question at a time when Jews in lsrael are awaiting the arrival of the Messiah, and are preparing for the rebuilding of the temple. What kind of a Messiah are they expecting? If it's another son of David, born of human parentage, and without divine credentials, then l suggest we be very wary!

When Jesus ascended to heaven, the angels said, 'this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go up into heaven.' [Acts 1:11]

Well, it doesn't come plainer than that!

Redemptionsong said:

Once again, it's a tactic of the enemy to make me out to be anti-semitic. I am not.

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I did not accuse you of being an anti-Semite.

I stand by what I wrote, but It was certainly not my intent to imply that your position equates to a hatred of Jews just as if I were say that I disagree with your interpretations it would be inappropriate that one should infer that I hate Christians.

If It was not clear what I was saying then I regret any lack of clarity in what I wrote.

RabbiO said:

I did not accuse you of being an anti-Semite.

I stand by what I wrote, but It was certainly not my intent to imply that your position equates to a hatred of Jews just as if I were say that I disagree with your interpretations that it would mean that I hate Christians.

If It was not clear what I was saying then I regret any lack of clarity in what I wrote.

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Let me also say that the criticisms levelled by the prophets against false shepherds is as relevant to the Christian church as it is to Israel.

In Romans 10:1-4, Paul wrote: 'Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for lsrael is, that they might be saved.
For l bear them record that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.'

What do you make of these words?

Redemptionsong said:

The statements made about the blindness of the Jews are to be found in the Hebrew scriptures. I've already quoted one such passage from lsaiah. So, if the prophets say that you are spiritually blind, how come you argue so vehemently that you are not?

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Do you want Jewish people to reply to your threads or not?

Redemptionsong said:

For in lsaiah 43:11, and Hosea 13:4, it states categorically that there is only one Saviour, and that is God! The Saviour of mankind is not just a man.

This raises a very real and pertinent question at a time when Jews in lsrael are awaiting the arrival of the Messiah, and are preparing for the rebuilding of the temple. What kind of a Messiah are they expecting?

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Messiah != Savior
Messiah = Annointed Leader

Redemptionsong said:

Paul wrote: 'Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for lsrael is, that they might be saved.
For l bear them record that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.'

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It's nothing more than the serpent's temptation. "Don't follow the law given by God, I know better, and so will you once you take a little bite"

Redemptionsong said:

How, if you have no knowledge of the baptism in the Holy Spirit, can you claim to have made a conscientious enquiry?

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What makes you think that I have no such knowledge? I could make the same claim about you. You are working under an unsupported premise. You are assuming that your beliefs are correct. They may not be. You do not seem to have a proper way to test them.

dybmh said:

Do you want Jewish people to reply to your threads or not?

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Of course. It's an open invitation.

Please explain your understanding of lsaiah 29.

dybmh said:

Messiah != Savior
Messiah = Annointed Leader

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Yes, the Messiah, the one on whom the Spirit of God rests, speaks in first person in Isaiah 61:1,2. Is this not also the Saviour?

dybmh said:

It's nothing more than the serpent's temptation. "Don't follow the law given by God, I know better, and so will you once you take a little bite"

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The message is FOLLOW THE LAW! The question is, Why haven't you done as commanded? Why is your righteousness not the righteousness of God?

Subduction Zone said:

What makes you think that I have no such knowledge? I could make the same claim about you. You are working under an unsupported premise. You are assuming that your beliefs are correct. They may not be. You do not seem to have a proper way to test them.

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If you had knowledge of the Holy Spirit, it would be evident in your response to Jesus Christ.

As the proverb says, 'Thou art snared by the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth.' [Proverbs 6:2]

All along you have argued that the only evidence available to man is the visible evidence found in this world. To you, there is no reality outside of this world. This is a problem if you are to understand the things of God.

1 John 2:15. 'If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.'

Redemptionsong said:

If you had knowledge of the Holy Spirit, it would be evident in your response to Jesus Christ.

As the proverb says, 'Thou art snared by the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth.' [Proverbs 6:2]

All along you have argued that the only evidence available to man is the visible evidence found in this world. To you, there is no reality outside of this world. This is a problem if you are to understand the things of God.

1 John 2:15. 'If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.'

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It is rather clear that you do not have "knowledge". You only have mere belief. You are using faulty reasoning. You try to use the Bible as evidence, but when it says things that you do not like or refutes your beliefs you have to try to change it. Those actions make the book unreliable. You may believe really really hard but that still does not make a belief knowledge.

Redemptionsong said:

This raises a very real and pertinent question at a time when Jews in lsrael are awaiting the arrival of the Messiah, and are preparing for the rebuilding of the temple. What kind of a Messiah are they expecting? If it's another son of David, born of human parentage, and without divine credentials, then l suggest we be very wary!

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It is my understanding that the awaited messiah would be a man along the lines of king David and would restore Israel to be once again a kingdom as the time of David.

Subduction Zone said:

It is rather clear that you do not have "knowledge". You only have mere belief. You are using faulty reasoning. You try to use the Bible as evidence, but when it says things that you do not like or refutes your beliefs you have to try to change it. Those actions make the book unreliable. You may believe really really hard but that still does not make a belief knowledge.

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There is nothing written in the Bible that l do not like!

If you believe that my understanding of scripture is erroneous then it is with scripture that you should correct me! So far, l haven't even seen you try!

Redemptionsong said:

There is nothing written in the Bible that l do not like!

If you believe that my understanding of scripture is erroneous then it is with scripture that you should correct me! So far, l haven't even seen you try!

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Then why do you find it necessary to reinterpret some verses? And do you like the countless errors in the Bible? The stories that never happened, the bad morals, the endless self contradictions. the list goes on and on. I am betting that there is a quite a bit of the Bible that you do not like.

pearl said:

It is my understanding that the awaited messiah would be a man along the lines of king David and would restore Israel to be once again a kingdom as the time of David.

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Yes, the majority of Jewish websites that l have viewed state that the Messiah will be a son of David, born of human parentage.

To me, this raises a very real problem of verification. In Jeremiah 22:30, a curse is placed on the seed of Jeconiah, and, to my understanding, this curse was never lifted. How, therefore, can a male descendent of Jeconiah ever sit upon the throne of David?

The everlasting nature of the Messianic throne is itself an issue. David's kingdom was temporary, and David himself acknowledged the existence of a mediator, or Lord, between himself and God the Father [see Psalm 110:1]. So, the Lord that David saw seated at the right hand of the Father appears to have greater authority than the greatest of all Jewish kings. But, why was he seen seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven? If the Messiah is born on earth, as Jews expect, then what is he doing in heaven?

Redemptionsong said:

Of course. It's an open invitation.

Please explain your understanding of lsaiah 29.

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Convince me you will value what I say.

Redemptionsong said:

Yes, the Messiah, the one on whom the Spirit of God rests, speaks in first person in Isaiah 61:1,2. Is this not also the Saviour?

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Nope the speaker in 61 is a prophet. The chapter is prophecy, no one is being saved.

Redemptionsong said:

The message is FOLLOW THE LAW! The question is, Why haven't you done as commanded? Why is your righteousness not the righteousness of God?

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You are being deceptive. How serpenty. The message is NOT follow the law. That's a lie. The message is believe in Jesus, in other words, bite the poison apple live enternally in Christ.

Redemptionsong said:

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

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Christ *is* the end... of the law. You've been caught lying. You've made judgements about my righteousness, yet you're not keeping your own house in order.

Subduction Zone said:

Then why do you find it necessary to reinterpret some verses? And do you like the countless errors in the Bible? The stories that never happened, the bad morals, the endless self contradictions. the list goes on and on. I am betting that there is a quite a bit of the Bible that you do not like.

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There is nothing in the Bible l 'do not like'. I happen to believe that all scripture is inspired by God.

What exactly do you mean by 'reinterpret'?

It states in lsaiah 29:11 that the prophetic book is 'sealed' and not understood fully by any man's intellect. Yet, in Revelation 5:9, we are told about the one person who is 'worthy' to open the seals. And, it is none other than Jesus Christ. He is worthy because his heart is perfectly righteous and he came from God! The perfect Son walks by the Spirit of the perfect Father.

If one is 'born again' of the Holy Spirit, one is given insights into the mind of Christ, and into the Word of God.

dybmh said:

Convince me you will value what I say.

Nope the speaker in 61 is a prophet. The chapter is prophecy, no one is being saved.

You are being deceptive. How serpenty. The message is NOT follow the law. That's a lie. The message is believe in Jesus, in other words, bite the poison apple live enternally in Christ.

Christ *is* the end... of the law. You've been caught lying.

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Let's begin by taking some direct quotes from scripture.

This is what Jesus said to a Jewish audience:
'Think not that l am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: l am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.' [Matthew 5:17]

'Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.'' [Matthew 5:19]

Now, let's see what Paul says.
Romans 7:12: 'Wherefore the law is holy , and the commandment holy, and just, and good.'

So, Jesus came to do everything required by the law of Moses. When he died on the cross, Jesus exclaimed 'lt is finished (completed)'

Paul, writing to the believers after Pentecost, tells them that the law is good, but that living under the law is not the new covenant. The new covenant is to live by faith in the one righteous individual who has fulfilled the law.

The Spirit in Jesus had conquered the desires of the flesh, and with that same Holy Spirit inside, Paul says that believers, Jews and Gentiles in Christ, are also able to overcome the sins of the flesh.

The difference between living under the law, the written word, and living under grace, the Holy Spirit, is a matter of heart. In other words, if a tree is not good, it will not bear good fruit. The goodness must come directly from God, and it starts with the Holy Spirit (at the heart).

Redemptionsong said:

Let's begin by taking some direct quotes from scripture.

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ok

Redemptionsong said:

So, Jesus came to do everything required by the law of Moses. When he died on the cross, Jesus exclaimed 'lt is finished (completed)'

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The law is finished.

Redemptionsong said:

living under the law is not the new covenant. The new covenant is to live by faith

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Faith not law.

Redemptionsong said:

The difference between living under the law, the written word, and living under grace, the Holy Spirit, is a matter of heart.

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Grace not law.

Redemptionsong said:

The message is FOLLOW THE LAW!

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Proverbs 19:9
New International Version
A false witness will not go unpunished, and whoever pours out lies will perish.

New Living Translation
A false witness will not go unpunished, and a liar will be destroyed.

English Standard Version
A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will perish.

Berean Standard Bible
A false witness will not go unpunished, and one who pours out lies will perish.

King James Bible
A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.

New King James Version
A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who speaks lies shall perish.

New American Standard Bible
A false witness will not go unpunished, And one who declares lies will perish.

NASB 1995
A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who tells lies will perish.

NASB 1977
A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who tells lies will perish.

Amplified Bible
A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who breathes lies will perish.

Christian Standard Bible
A false witness will not go unpunished, and one who utters lies perishes.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
A false witness will not go unpunished, and one who utters lies perishes.

American Standard Version
A false witness shall not be unpunished; And he that uttereth lies shall perish.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
A false witness will not be spared, and he that speaks lies will be destroyed.

Contemporary English Version
Dishonest witnesses and liars will be destroyed.

Douay-Rheims Bible
A false witness shall not be unpunished: and he that speaketh lies, shall perish.

Good News Translation
No one who tells lies in court can escape punishment; he is doomed.

International Standard Version
A witness to lies will not go unpunished; the teller of falsehoods will perish.

JPS Tanakh 1917
A false witness shall not be unpunished; And he that breatheth forth lies shall perish.

Literal Standard Version
A false witness is not acquitted, And whoever breathes out lies perishes.

New American Bible
The false witness will not go unpunished, and whoever utters lies will perish.

NET Bible
A false witness will not go unpunished, and the one who spouts out lies will perish.

New Revised Standard Version
A false witness will not go unpunished, and the liar will perish.

New Heart English Bible
A false witness shall not be unpunished. He who utters lies shall perish.

World English Bible
A false witness shall not be unpunished. He who utters lies shall perish.

Young's Literal Translation
A false witness is not acquitted, And whoso breatheth out lies perisheth.

Redemptionsong said:

There is nothing in the Bible l 'do not like'. I happen to believe that all scripture is inspired by God.

What exactly do you mean by 'reinterpret'?

It states in lsaiah 29:11 that the prophetic book is 'sealed' and not understood fully by any man's intellect. Yet, in Revelation 5:9, we are told about the one person who is 'worthy' to open the seals. And, it is none other than Jesus Christ. He is worthy because his heart is perfectly righteous and he came from God! The perfect Son walks by the Spirit of the perfect Father.

If one is 'born again' of the Holy Spirit, one is given insights into the mind of Christ, and into the Word of God.

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What does that mean? "inspired by God" is a rather vague claim. We know that does not mean that it is true.

And you misunderstood the verse that you copied that from.

And now your playing silly word games with your holy book. That borders on blasphemy.