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Pre-incarnate Jesus?

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Christians, Believers in Christ, I've found myself in another rabbit hole. :eek::confused::D

So I've been researching the answer to a scriptural question/contradiction relating to John 1:18 and John 6:46. The gist of it is, if no one has seen the Father except the Son, what about YHVH appearing to Abraham in Genesis 17:1. The answer I've found is that YHVH in Gen 17:1 is actually pre-incarnate Jesus. I'm trying to figure out if this makes sense, or is it just the best answer people could come up with.

Question #1: is this how you would resolve the conflict? YHVH isn't the Father it's the Son?

Question #2: if YHVH is the Son then did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob ever know the Father? if so, Jesus must have chosen to reveal it ( Matthew 11:27 ); is there any indication of this in scripture? if not, then the Father is an "other god which you didn't know" ( Deuteronomy 13:1-3 )?

Question #3: if YHVH is the Son, then all the dreadful things done by YHVH and the harsh laws come from the Son? Doesn't this diminish what a lot of people like about Christianity compared to Judaism. The Son in Christianity is supposed to be kind and gentle? If the Son is YHVH then the flood, the plagues, the death of the first born, death penalty for violating the Sabbath, etc... all become attributed to the Son?
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Christians, Believers in Christ, I've found myself in another rabbit hole. :eek::confused::D

So I've been researching the answer to a scriptural question/contradiction relating to John 1:18 and John 6:46. The gist of it is, if no one has seen the Father except the Son, what about YHVH appearing to Abraham in Genesis 17:1. The answer I've found is that YHVH in Gen 17:1 is actually pre-incarnate Jesus. I'm trying to figure out if this makes sense, or is it just the best answer people could come up with.

Question #1: is this how you would resolve the conflict? YHVH isn't the Father it's the Son?

Question #2: if YHVH is the Son then did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob ever know the Father? if so, Jesus must have chosen to reveal it ( Matthew 11:27 ); is there any indication of this in scripture? if not, then the Father is an "other god which you didn't know" ( Deuteronomy 13:1-3 )?

Question #3: if YHVH is the Son, then all the dreadful things done by YHVH and the harsh laws come from the Son? Doesn't this diminish what a lot of people like about Christianity compared to Judaism. The Son in Christianity is supposed to be kind and gentle? If the Son is YHVH then the flood, the plagues, the death of the first born, death penalty for violating the Sabbath, etc... all become attributed to the Son?

I'm also curious how Christians who don't believe Jesus is God attempt to resolve the contradiction.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Christians, Believers in Christ, I've found myself in another rabbit hole. :eek::confused::D

So I've been researching the answer to a scriptural question/contradiction relating to John 1:18 and John 6:46. The gist of it is, if no one has seen the Father except the Son, what about YHVH appearing to Abraham in Genesis 17:1. The answer I've found is that YHVH in Gen 17:1 is actually pre-incarnate Jesus.
Theologically speaking, the Genesis reference is what is known as a theophany, which is a temporary manifestation of the Divine in physical form. It appears and disappears. Whereas theologically speaking, Jesus was the human incarnation of the Divine, which meant is was not temporary, but a full normal human body from childhood to death.

Those who call that the "pre-incarnate" Jesus are stretching the matter, theologically speaking. If you go by the gospel of John, all those references within itself are to the Logos of John 1:1-14. The Logos, in the context of John's audience, is drawing from Philo of Alexandria's Logos, as the Manifesting Agent of the invisible, unmanifest Divine, or godhead. So technically speaking, the entire manifest universe is the "preincarnate Christ". So anything and everything is Christ, or the Logos in other words. "The heavens declare the glory of God." Ps. 19

But of course, the Logos never ceased being the Logos, as God has always been "manifesting". Logos is literally "God Manifesting". So when "the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us" Jn. 1:14, Jesus was simply a human incarnation of that eternal "manifestor of God", continuing that function or role in human form. It's all a metaphor to speak of Jesus as the full radiant unpolluted manifestation of that eternal Logos. That is what John intended for his audience to read from that.

Question #1: is this how you would resolve the conflict? YHVH isn't the Father it's the Son?
Technically speaking, there is no distinction. "Those that have seen me has seen the Father." Even a theophany, is a manifestation of God, and Jesus is the Manifestor. There is no real separation, only artificial distinctions for the mind to separate these into different things, like saying the mind and the body. In actual reality, the mind and the body are really "bodymind". We just talk about them as different things. Same thing applies to the Divine theologically speaking.

But if someone is trying to speak of Jesus as a separate being, that literally had a body before he was a human, I give that a bit of gentle facepalm.

Question #2: if YHVH is the Son then did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob ever know the Father? if so, Jesus must have chosen to reveal it ( Matthew 11:27 ); is there any indication of this in scripture? if not, then the Father is an "other god which you didn't know" ( Deuteronomy 13:1-3 )?
People have always known God. And people have also never seen God, as God is Spirit.

Question #3: if YHVH is the Son, then all the dreadful things done by YHVH and the harsh laws come from the Son? Doesn't this diminish what a lot of people like about Christianity compared to Judaism. The Son in Christianity is supposed to be kind and gentle? If the Son is YHVH then the flood, the plagues, the death of the first born, death penalty for violating the Sabbath, etc... all become attributed to the Son?
God spoken of in the OT books represents two different points of view about God. I don't read scripture as God dictating to man. I see it as man expressing his evolving, and contradictory views about the Divine reality. Some see God as Love, a Divine aspiration of their human hearts. Others see God as petty and vengeful and vindictive, a projection of their own human egos and fears. You see both faces in the OT books. But I believe Jesus taught the Love vision of the Divine, trying to speak to audiences who wrestled with these conflicting visions of God.

Proof of that? When Jesus said, "You have heard it say, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", he was quoting Deuteronomic author's idea of a God of retributive justice. He then overrides that, and say, "But I say unto you.... love your enemy, do good to those who harm you...", and so forth. He was showing the better way.

So there's my take on these things. Hope that helps some.
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Question #1: is this how you would resolve the conflict? YHVH isn't the Father it's the Son?
God is God

Jesus is God
God is not Jesus


The Divine incarnates as humans, animals and what not

God will respond to your prayer in the form and name that you address Him with

For me there is no conflict
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Christians, Believers in Christ, I've found myself in another rabbit hole. :eek::confused::D

So I've been researching the answer to a scriptural question/contradiction relating to John 1:18 and John 6:46. The gist of it is, if no one has seen the Father except the Son, what about YHVH appearing to Abraham in Genesis 17:1. The answer I've found is that YHVH in Gen 17:1 is actually pre-incarnate Jesus. I'm trying to figure out if this makes sense, or is it just the best answer people could come up with.

Question #1: is this how you would resolve the conflict? YHVH isn't the Father it's the Son?

Question #2: if YHVH is the Son then did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob ever know the Father? if so, Jesus must have chosen to reveal it ( Matthew 11:27 ); is there any indication of this in scripture? if not, then the Father is an "other god which you didn't know" ( Deuteronomy 13:1-3 )?

Question #3: if YHVH is the Son, then all the dreadful things done by YHVH and the harsh laws come from the Son? Doesn't this diminish what a lot of people like about Christianity compared to Judaism. The Son in Christianity is supposed to be kind and gentle? If the Son is YHVH then the flood, the plagues, the death of the first born, death penalty for violating the Sabbath, etc... all become attributed to the Son?
Its a great question. We should also recall: Exous 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

The UB reveals that it was actually Melchizedek that was the "visible representative of God" who made the agreement with Abram. Melchizedek was an incarnate celestial being on the earth for 90 years preaching Monotheism. His identity was NOT revealed to his followers. Centuries later when the story of Abraham was being written the authors no longer believed in the old story of Melchizedek, so they had God come down and meet directly with Abram which does contradict Exodus 33:20.

This may sound strange and too unbelievable but recall that (3) celestials met later with Abraham at the Oaks of Mamre.


Genesis 18

The Three Visitors

18 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Christians, Believers in Christ, I've found myself in another rabbit hole. :eek::confused::D

So I've been researching the answer to a scriptural question/contradiction relating to John 1:18 and John 6:46. The gist of it is, if no one has seen the Father except the Son, what about YHVH appearing to Abraham in Genesis 17:1. The answer I've found is that YHVH in Gen 17:1 is actually pre-incarnate Jesus. I'm trying to figure out if this makes sense, or is it just the best answer people could come up with.

Question #1: is this how you would resolve the conflict? YHVH isn't the Father it's the Son?

Yes... this is quite a conundrum and I am sure that we will have a full spectrum of answers.

My personal belief is too many time we apply today's word understanding to a language that has completely different applications and meanings.

For an example, the English language definition "love" has multiple Greek words that completely change the understanding of the word. For an example, when Jesus asked Peter three times, "Do you love me" - there are actually two words in those questions. If one doesn't know that, the full meaning is lost.

Or, we are trying to fit it through a personal lens of belief.

Obviously that cut both ways and it could be said of me too.

If the context is "no one has seen the Father" - then he is specifically talking about a certain portion of the Godhead. If I believe I have a spirit, I could say, "no one has seen my spirit" - yet visibly they have seen my body.

So, it could be said that no one has seen the Father in His fulness and yet has seen the son who is the image of His glory even as my body is the image of my spirit and yet no one has seen my spirit.

Question #2: if YHVH is the Son then did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob ever know the Father? if so, Jesus must have chosen to reveal it ( Matthew 11:27 ); is there any indication of this in scripture? if not, then the Father is an "other god which you didn't know" ( Deuteronomy 13:1-3 )?

This one is isn't that difficult. John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

They are so one, if you know one you know the fulness of God.

Question #3: if YHVH is the Son, then all the dreadful things done by YHVH and the harsh laws come from the Son? Doesn't this diminish what a lot of people like about Christianity compared to Judaism. The Son in Christianity is supposed to be kind and gentle? If the Son is YHVH then the flood, the plagues, the death of the first born, death penalty for violating the Sabbath, etc... all become attributed to the Son?

Here we may have a bone to pick? :) "Kind and gentle" as he makes a whip an cleanses a Temple?

This would probably fill another thread. I don't think A = C here.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Christians, Believers in Christ, I've found myself in another rabbit hole. :eek::confused::D

So I've been researching the answer to a scriptural question/contradiction relating to John 1:18 and John 6:46. The gist of it is, if no one has seen the Father except the Son, what about YHVH appearing to Abraham in Genesis 17:1. The answer I've found is that YHVH in Gen 17:1 is actually pre-incarnate Jesus. I'm trying to figure out if this makes sense, or is it just the best answer people could come up with.

Question #1: is this how you would resolve the conflict? YHVH isn't the Father it's the Son?

Question #2: if YHVH is the Son then did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob ever know the Father? if so, Jesus must have chosen to reveal it ( Matthew 11:27 ); is there any indication of this in scripture? if not, then the Father is an "other god which you didn't know" ( Deuteronomy 13:1-3 )?

Question #3: if YHVH is the Son, then all the dreadful things done by YHVH and the harsh laws come from the Son? Doesn't this diminish what a lot of people like about Christianity compared to Judaism. The Son in Christianity is supposed to be kind and gentle? If the Son is YHVH then the flood, the plagues, the death of the first born, death penalty for violating the Sabbath, etc... all become attributed to the Son?
Ephesians 4:6: 'One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.'

These are the words spoken by Paul to the Church at Ephesus.

The Father's Spirit was in Jesus reconciling the world unto himself.
2 Corinthians 5:19. 'To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation'.

Jesus as a man (body, soul and spirit) did not pre-exist. God had never before come to dwell on earth as a man. The pre-existent Spirit in Jesus (which he received at baptism) is the eternal Holy Spirit, which in the OT had appeared in the guise of 'the angel of the LORD'.

The Father 'above' is pure Holy Spirit, or love without form. When this Spirit of love is turned into 'form', through creation, it happens by the Word. The Word of God becomes evident to mankind not just in creation, but through the prophecy of angels and of men. The Word is most evident when it dwells fully amongst us as a man! That man is the Christ of scripture.

But to know God for oneself, one must be 'born again' of the Spirit that was in Christ. Only by such a baptism can one hope to attain personal knowledge of the Saviour.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Christians, Believers in Christ, I've found myself in another rabbit hole. :eek::confused::D

So I've been researching the answer to a scriptural question/contradiction relating to John 1:18 and John 6:46. The gist of it is, if no one has seen the Father except the Son, what about YHVH appearing to Abraham in Genesis 17:1. The answer I've found is that YHVH in Gen 17:1 is actually pre-incarnate Jesus. I'm trying to figure out if this makes sense, or is it just the best answer people could come up with.

Question #1: is this how you would resolve the conflict? YHVH isn't the Father it's the Son?

Question #2: if YHVH is the Son then did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob ever know the Father? if so, Jesus must have chosen to reveal it ( Matthew 11:27 ); is there any indication of this in scripture? if not, then the Father is an "other god which you didn't know" ( Deuteronomy 13:1-3 )?

Question #3: if YHVH is the Son, then all the dreadful things done by YHVH and the harsh laws come from the Son? Doesn't this diminish what a lot of people like about Christianity compared to Judaism. The Son in Christianity is supposed to be kind and gentle? If the Son is YHVH then the flood, the plagues, the death of the first born, death penalty for violating the Sabbath, etc... all become attributed to the Son?
Hello, how are you? it's so typical for me to talk about myself. i'm sorry. -hello - adele - revelation 11:15


I am not exclusively christian but monist, a begotten. I will speak only to the genesis 17:1 and later to the begotten/becoming


melchizedek = yeshua = joshua = et al.






Melchizedek was the “king of Salem” and “priest of the most high God” who shares bread and wine with Abraham in Genesis 14: 18-20.) He is also mentioned both in the Dead Sea Scrolls (11QMelch) and the Melchizedek in the Nag Hammadi codex where he appears as a cosmic angelic figure, the risen Christ. Hebrews 5:8-10 calls Jesus “a high priest after the order of Melchizedek,” which explains how Jesus was a priestly Messiah without being a Levite. According to Cayce, Melchizedek wrote the Book of Job, which contains many mysterious passages that Cayce liked. Cayce once said, “For, as the sons of God came together to reason, as recorded by Job, “WHO recorded same? The Son of Man! Melchizedek wrote Job!.”



The Hermetic Teachings concerning the process of the Mental Creation of the Universe, are that at the beginning of the Creative Cycle, THE ALL, in its aspect of "Being," projects its Will toward its aspect of "Becoming," and the process of creation begins. It is taught that the process consists of the lowering of Vibration until a very low degree of vibratory energy is reached, at which point the grossest possible form of Matter is manifested. This process is called the stage of Involution, in which THE ALL becomes "involved," or "wrapped up," in its creation. This process is believed by the Hermetists to have a Correspondence to the mental process of an artist, writer, or inventor, who becomes so wrapped up in his mental creation as to almost forget his own existence and who, for the time being, almost "lives in his creation." If instead of "wrapped" we use the word "rapt," perhaps we will give a better idea of what is meant.
 
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Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Question #1: is this how you would resolve the conflict? YHVH isn't the Father it's the Son?
One can resolve the conflict by removing assumptions. This creates more questions but is better I think. John 1:18 says that the Son is "In the bosom of the Father," which implies Abraham is the Father referred to literally. What John appears to be saying is that Christianity is of Abraham.

The gist of it is, if no one has seen the Father except the Son
That is a partial quote which creates an unnecessary contradiction. The argument Matthew is trying to make in 11:27 I think is "...and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." He is arguing for catholic inclusion of all people, Jesus being the first of them after his repentance (figuratively his death and resurrection). Jesus says "All things have been committed to me" does not make Jesus the only one who has seen the Father, because it is only part of a phrase. The end of the sentence is "and to those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." This is along the lines of "The spirit goes where it wills" which Jesus says in John chapter 3.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Christians, Believers in Christ, I've found myself in another rabbit hole. :eek::confused::D

So I've been researching the answer to a scriptural question/contradiction relating to John 1:18 and John 6:46. The gist of it is, if no one has seen the Father except the Son, what about YHVH appearing to Abraham in Genesis 17:1. The answer I've found is that YHVH in Gen 17:1 is actually pre-incarnate Jesus. I'm trying to figure out if this makes sense, or is it just the best answer people could come up with.

Question #1: is this how you would resolve the conflict? YHVH isn't the Father it's the Son?

Question #2: if YHVH is the Son then did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob ever know the Father? if so, Jesus must have chosen to reveal it ( Matthew 11:27 ); is there any indication of this in scripture? if not, then the Father is an "other god which you didn't know" ( Deuteronomy 13:1-3 )?

Question #3: if YHVH is the Son, then all the dreadful things done by YHVH and the harsh laws come from the Son? Doesn't this diminish what a lot of people like about Christianity compared to Judaism. The Son in Christianity is supposed to be kind and gentle? If the Son is YHVH then the flood, the plagues, the death of the first born, death penalty for violating the Sabbath, etc... all become attributed to the Son?

God the Father is the one who created the universe. The smaller job of dealing with the humans was assigned to others, so God could deal with the bigger picture.

The Father is like the Chairman of the Board of a larger multifaceted company; God Inc. The person that Abraham saw has was one of God's CEO's, in charge of the humans and earth; Satan.

When Jesus began is ministry he was approach by Satan who promised him all the wealth and power of the kingdoms of the earth if he would bow down and serve him. Satan had this authority. But Jess does not accept the offer since he knows the Chairman of the Board and he knows he is in line for a large promotion. He will take over Satan's job.

Satan as the CEO in charge of humans explains the dual natural of the God of the Old Testament; good and evil like the tree of good and evil. This behavior was connected to Satan's tree, and was chosen by Eve and Adam; part of a master plan, set up in advance.

Only the Son has seen the Father; Chairman, as well as whomever the Son takes along to staff meetings. The staff meeting with the Chairman Father are closed to the public, since it involves propriety information. The Holy Spirit is like a key the city, so you can see some of the action. The son holds this keys and give them to out as need arises.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
So I've been researching the answer to a scriptural question/contradiction relating to John 1:18

* [1:18] The only Son, God: while the vast majority of later textual witnesses have another reading, “the Son, the only one” or “the only Son,” the translation above follows the best and earliest manuscripts, monogenēs theos, but takes the first term to mean not just “Only One” but to include a filial relationship with the Father, as at Lk 9:38 (“only child”) or Heb 11:17 (“only son”) and as translated at Jn 1:14. The Logos is thus “only Son” and God but not Father/God.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So I've been researching the answer to a scriptural question/contradiction relating to John 1:18 and John 6:46. The gist of it is, if no one has seen the Father except the Son, what about YHVH appearing to Abraham in Genesis 17:1. The answer I've found is that YHVH in Gen 17:1 is actually pre-incarnate Jesus. I'm trying to figure out if this makes sense, or is it just the best answer people could come up with.

Yes please. Hopefully you won't send me to read an entire book, tho :)

Actually I will give it a go without quoting the source of my thoughts, that way it is better explored if you wish to find the source of my thoughts. I am yet to cement my thoughts into a clear picture, as you have picked up on quite a deep subject that is contained within the Baha'i Writings, a subject I would offer many Baha'i have not even yet considered, or like me have come upon it, which is the very question you ask.

The first consideration in answering this questions I see, is for us to deepen on our own concept of what is "G_d". A name so holy that Jews in the past would not mention it.

For a Baha'i we are told that God is above all Names and Attributes, and I see that is reflected both in the Quran and the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. As such any concept we have of God is only what the Messengers have shown and told us about, or are a product of our own imagination. All the Names and Attributes that emanate from that Most Great Spirit are the Essence of the Messengers, as the Essence of G_d is forever unknown and unaccessible.

That being the case, then the 'Greatest Name of God' can only also be an Attribute given to the Messenger/s from God and that Messenger will reveal that Attribute to Humanity, as Humanity does not see or hear God at anytime.

So do your thoughts make sense, 100% so and is confirmed in the Baha'i Writings when both the Bab and Baha'u'llah have identified that it was they that conversed with Moses from the burning bush. I will offer, that in this respect, that was also Jesus Christ and go further that it was all the Messengers, even Moses own Self!

There is some great reading where Baha'i have written on this topic, that ask the question, is it the Messengers that send themselves!

In the Baha'i Writings, this is the day of Jehovah and the 'YHVH' has been manifested in the name Baha'u'llah. The translation of Baha’u’llah is "Glory of God" or "Glory of the Lord".

If one then reads the Bible about future prophecy, on can consider how often it talks about the day when the "Glory of God", or the "Glory of the Lord", does lighten that day of God!

Happy to explore and provide the sources of those thoughts. I know I have much more to learn and consider on this topic as well.

Regards Tony
 
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PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Question #1: is this how you would resolve the conflict? YHVH isn't the Father it's the Son?

Question #2: if YHVH is the Son then did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob ever know the Father? if so, Jesus must have chosen to reveal it ( Matthew 11:27 ); is there any indication of this in scripture? if not, then the Father is an "other god which you didn't know" ( Deuteronomy 13:1-3 )?

Question #3: if YHVH is the Son, then all the dreadful things done by YHVH and the harsh laws come from the Son? Doesn't this diminish what a lot of people like about Christianity compared to Judaism. The Son in Christianity is supposed to be kind and gentle? If the Son is YHVH then the flood, the plagues, the death of the first born, death penalty for violating the Sabbath, etc... all become attributed to the Son?
Answering as an ex-Christian.

YHVH is God. Father, Son and HS are the same one God. Jesus is Logos (the creative principle/agent) in fully human (incarnated) form. In OT YHVH only appeared and disappeared in human and other forms. He wasn't born and fully living as a human among humans yet.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Answering as an ex-Christian.

YHVH is God. Father, Son and HS are the same one God. Jesus is Logos (the creative principle/agent) in fully human (incarnated) form. In OT YHVH only appeared and disappeared in human and other forms. He wasn't born and fully living as a human among humans yet.

That's the best explanation I have seen from a Christian perspective and is much in harmony with a Baha'i perspective, with a few added thoughts to consider.

The aspect mostly to be considered with your explanation is that God does not descend into creation and that is reconciled by the consideration that it is the Attributes of God given via the Holy Spirit, that does descend and become manifest in the Logos.

This is like the rays of the sun giving life to the earth yet the sun does not come to the earth.

Now what we can consider, is that when jesus promised he would return, it was the Logos aspect that would return and not the flesh body. That the Logos will become manifested again in the human body in the Station of the Father as promised by the Son, all the Same Attributes of the One God.

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

We only see God via the Logos, the Messengers.

Exodus 33:20 "But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”

Much like looking directly at the sun without a filter for our eyes.

All the best, Regards Tony
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@Soapy, @DNB, @nPeace ,

Hello, there weren't any non-trinitarian replies to this thread ( that I recall ). Would any of you be kind enough to comment on the contradiction described in the OP? Here it is quoted:

I've been researching the answer to a scriptural question/contradiction relating to John 1:18 and John 6:46. The gist of it is, if no one has seen the Father except the Son, what about YHVH appearing to Abraham in Genesis 17:1. The answer I've found is that YHVH in Gen 17:1 is actually pre-incarnate Jesus. I'm trying to figure out if this makes sense, or is it just the best answer people could come up with.

Is this how you would resolve the conflict? YHVH isn't the Father it's the Son?
 

DNB

Christian
@Soapy, @DNB, @nPeace ,

Hello, there weren't any non-trinitarian replies to this thread ( that I recall ). Would any of you be kind enough to comment on the contradiction described in the OP? Here it is quoted:
Any deification of any other person or being, other than the Father, is blasphemy. So, any Biblical interpretation that exegetes Jesus, or anyone else, as God or divine, is heretical and subversive.
Often in the Tanakh when God speaks or shows Himself directly to a human, within the pericope, the one that is described to be the Lord variously changes from an angel, to God , or visa versa.

The passage of the burning bush declares that it is both an angel and God having a discussion with Moses. In the book of Acts, Stephen says that it was an angel.
In the Book of Judges, Manoa, Samson's father, spoke to an angel, but stated that he had seen God.

In Gen 17:1 , or Exodus 24:9-10, or Elijah: God is spirit, is omnipresent and transcendent - how in the world can anyone see Him - what colour are His eyes, how big are His hands, does He have a yiddish accent, does He need to cut His hair or fingernails, etc.... No one, has ever seen God, He simply manipulates the earth's elements in order to make His presence known (pillar of fire & pillar of cloud).
Messengers, ambassadors or angels, who are sent by God and speak on His behalf, may be referred to as God, or speak in His name as though it's God talking Himself.

John 1:16 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. This is true, God cannot be seen
compare with
John 6:46, No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
compare with
John 14:9 Jesus said unto him, “Have I been so long a time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, ‘Show us the Father’?

Thus, to see the Father is figurative - for there is not a trinitarian out there that will ever call the Father the son (John 14:9) - for the only thing that separates the three is there name, obviously.

Jesus' words are often hard to understand, but for every passage that seemingly appears to state that he's God, there are a hundred others that affirm the opposite. And that, plus common sense - no such thing as a god-man, precludes any option to call Jesus Christ of Nazareth YHVH.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
@Soapy, @DNB, @nPeace ,

Hello, there weren't any non-trinitarian replies to this thread ( that I recall ).

dybmh said:
I've been researching the answer to a scriptural question/contradiction relating to John 1:18 and John 6:46. The gist of it is, if no one has seen the Father except the Son, what about YHVH appearing to Abraham in Genesis 17:1. The answer I've found is that YHVH in Gen 17:1 is actually pre-incarnate Jesus. I'm trying to figure out if this makes sense, or is it just the best answer people could come up with.

Is this how you would resolve the conflict? YHVH isn't the Father it's the Son?
Would any of you be kind enough to comment on the contradiction described in the OP? Here it is quoted:
Hi dybmh.
The simple answer is, God was represented by angels... always.
So when the Bible says, God appeared to..., it was by an angel, or angels.

Some examples are...
The one you mentioned - Genesis 17:1-3 1 When Aʹbram was 99 years old, Jehovah appeared to Aʹbram and said to him: “I am God Almighty. Walk before me and prove yourself faultless. 2 I will establish my covenant between me and you, and I will multiply you very, very much.” 3 At this Aʹbram fell facedown, and God continued to speak with him, saying. . .
Genesis 17:22 . . .When God finished speaking with him, he went up from Abraham. 

Compare
(Genesis 18:1-3) 1 Afterward, Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mamʹre while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent during the hottest part of the day. 2 He looked up and saw three men standing some distance from him. When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them, and he bowed down to the ground. 3 Then he said: “Jehovah, if I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant.

(Genesis 18:22) . . .Then the men left from there and went toward Sodʹom, but Jehovah remained with Abraham.
(Genesis 18:33) . . .When Jehovah finished speaking to Abraham, he went his way and Abraham returned to his place.

(Genesis 22:11, 12) 11 But Jehovah’s angel called to him from the heavens and said: “Abraham, Abraham!” to which he answered: “Here I am!” 12 Then he said: “Do not harm the boy, and do not do anything at all to him, for now I do know that you are God-fearing because you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”
Notice the angel speaks as Jehovah in the first person.

Exodus 3
2 . . .Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. . .
4 . . .God called to him out of the thornbush and said: “Moses! Moses!” to which he said: “Here I am.. . .

It's just a matter of the writer's perspective, but the reader need not be confused once he does not remove the foundation, but rather, builds on it.
The foundation -
God dwells in heaven.
God cannot be seen by humans.
God cannot dwell on earth.
Isaiah 66:1 ; Matthew 5:34-35

We build on that, as it's intact. We cannot 'uproot' it, or replace it with something else.
Think of it this way...

a-Throne.jpg


Think of the throne as the heavens, and the footstool as the earth. Now put Jehovah - the king - on it.
It's not as accurate a picture, but illustrates how Jehovah is, in relation to heaven and earth.
(1 Kings 8:27)  “But will God really dwell on the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!

Hope you see the bigggggggggggggggggg picture. ;)
 
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