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Trying to understand the mechanism/purpose of the soul... a braindump.

JDMS

JDMS

Academic Workhorse
I'm hoping to understand peoples' perspectives better, as the non-physical soul is a concept I struggle to grasp. This post is a kind of brain dump with all sorts of semi-related things I've always wondered about the soul.

For those who believe in a non-physical soul, especially anyone who views it as separate from the body, what do you believe its purpose is? What does it accomplish that the physical body does not, and how?

I have met a lot of people that believe the soul is responsible for consciousness, morality, etc... but to me, it seems as though physical brain and body activity are responsible for these things... And we can observe the physical impacts of thought on the brain. So the brain is certainly involved, no argument about that.

From the perspective of those who believe in an afterlife (at least many of those I've spoken to), the soul is still capable of thought after it has departed from the body. If the soul was capable of conscious thought on its own the whole time, then why does the brain do that same thing when we're alive? On that note... how does the soul do anything without a physical body? If the soul can exist on its own, why do bodies exist at all, and why would the soul be tethered to them?

For those who believe the full extent of morality, love, etc. are beyond the capabilities of the brain and are the result of the soul, how does the soul produce these feelings? Why?

Do you believe the physical world creates the non-physical soul, or do you believe the non-physical soul has non-physical origins? If it does have non-physical origins, then why/how does it attach/relate to the physical world?

If each person has an individual soul, when do we get it, and how is it formed/made? The creation of a human involves a complex physical process in the womb. When/how does the soul come into the picture?

I'm curious about what you guys think about this. And really, anyone can chime in, even those who don't necessarily believe in the clauses I'm presenting. Feel free to answer just parts of this post, because its all kind of a mess anyways... :oops:
 
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R

rational experiences

Veteran Member
rational experiences said:
As no human owns in thinking the same answer it is the answer. A belief.
Click to expand...
Not having it written small.

Men of science claim crop circle is God soul falling out...humans loss of spirit.

In science it's not giant to small.

Heavens as mass is the giant body.

Small is a crop circle....incorrect lying theist as no human is God. And you claiming by machine mechanics that you now own my soul ludicrous.

Why you edited the writing into small.
 
Ella S.

Ella S.

*temp banned*
What we call a soul in the West used to be called a spirit. A soul used to be considered an embodied spirit.

"Spirit" comes from the Latin "spiritus." Interestingly, "spiritus" can be translated as either soul or mind. So can the Greek "psyche" which we use in the word "psychology." The reason for this is that the mind and the spirit were considered the same thing.

"Soul" is merely a name for the mind that implies mind-body dualism. Its existence was debunked through the findings of neuroscience and psychiatry.
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
JDMS said:
I'm hoping to understand peoples' perspectives better, as the non-physical soul is a concept I struggle to grasp. This post is a kind of brain dump with all sorts of semi-related things I've always wondered about the soul.
...
clip_image001.png
Click to expand...


I will do a variant of metaphysical idealism. The world is from God and what you call physical is from God.

It is not physical; it is objective as independent of your soul and controlled/done by God. You are nothing but a soul among many souls and the rest is from God.
 
Heyo

Heyo

Veteran Member
JDMS said:
I'm hoping to understand peoples' perspectives better, as the non-physical soul is a concept I struggle to grasp. This post is a kind of brain dump with all sorts of semi-related things I've always wondered about the soul.

For those who believe in a non-physical soul, especially anyone who views it as separate from the body, what do you believe its purpose is? What does it accomplish that the physical body does not, and how?

I have met a lot of people that believe the soul is responsible for consciousness, morality, etc... but to me, it seems as though physical brain and body activity are responsible for these things... And we can observe the physical impacts of thought on the brain. So the brain is certainly involved, no argument about that.

From the perspective of those who believe in an afterlife (at least many of those I've spoken to), the soul is still capable of thought after it has departed from the body. If the soul was capable of conscious thought on its own the whole time, then why does the brain do that same thing when we're alive? On that note... how does the soul do anything without a physical body? If the soul can exist on its own, why do bodies exist at all, and why would the soul be tethered to them?

For those who believe the full extent of morality, love, etc. are beyond the capabilities of the brain and are the result of the soul, how does the soul produce these feelings? Why?

Do you believe the physical world creates the non-physical soul, or do you believe the non-physical soul has non-physical origins? If it does have non-physical origins, then why/how does it attach/relate to the physical world, and why?

If each person has an individual soul, when do we get it, and how is it formed/made? The creation of a human involves a complex physical process in the womb. When/how does the soul come into the picture?

I'm curious about what you guys think about this. And really, anyone can chime in, even those who don't necessarily believe in the clauses I'm presenting. Feel free to answer just parts of this post, because its all kind of a mess anyways... :oops:
Click to expand...
I like the idea of the simulation hypothesis to illustrate some points. E.g. the simulation hypothesis can be a stand-in for an intelligently designed universe.
To explain souls we need to expand the idea. In a simulation everything is created on a computer and follows the rules of the program. When add the possibility to interact with the simulation, we get a game. The Matrix is a popular example of a game. The computer provides the environment and the people act through their avatars. There are still NPCs, "played" by the computer and sometimes a player character can be overtaken by the program.
Now imagine our world as the game. The "soul" is an external player who moves you. The players actions are limited by the rules of the game.
 
JDMS

JDMS

Academic Workhorse
Ella S. said:
What we call a soul in the West used to be called a spirit. A soul used to be considered an embodied spirit.

"Spirit" comes from the Latin "spiritus." Interestingly, "spiritus" can be translated as either soul or mind. So can the Greek "psyche" which we use in the word "psychology." The reason for this is that the mind and the spirit were considered the same thing.

"Soul" is merely a name for the mind that implies mind-body dualism. Its existence was debunked through the findings of neuroscience and psychiatry.
Click to expand...

I think in the creation of this thread I realized that my ideas more closely align with naturalism than with animism. My attachment to animism was my belief that everything in the universe is animated through physical forces. These physical forces create physical 3D structures, which then go on to create the "personality" we see in objects, animals, etc... So I imagined that these physical forces are the "spirit" of all things. But in the end, that makes the "spirit" a natural phenomenon in my view... not the thing that most people are imagining when they use the word.

I'm now realizing that this view of the spirit or soul is stretching so far past the original definition of the word that it's pointless to use it.

Anyway... :oops:
 
Ella S.

Ella S.

*temp banned*
mikkel_the_dane said:
I will do a variant of metaphysical idealism. The world is from God and what you call physical is from God.

It is not physical; it is objective as independent of your soul and controlled/done by God. You are nothing but a soul among many souls and the rest is from God.
Click to expand...

Sort of like what George Berkeley proposed, where God is the mind which sustains objects which have existed our phaneron?
 
JDMS

JDMS

Academic Workhorse
Heyo said:
I like the idea of the simulation hypothesis to illustrate some points. E.g. the simulation hypothesis can be a stand-in for an intelligently designed universe.
To explain souls we need to expand the idea. In a simulation everything is created on a computer and follows the rules of the program. When add the possibility to interact with the simulation, we get a game. The Matrix is a popular example of a game. The computer provides the environment and the people act through their avatars. There are still NPCs, "played" by the computer and sometimes a player character can be overtaken by the program.
Now imagine our world as the game. The "soul" is an external player who moves you. The players actions are limited by the rules of the game.
Click to expand...

Hm... I guess I am still confused by this idea since the external character in this scenario is still a physical human with a brain (or a computer) playing the game. In the end, the choices and value judgments made by the external controlling force are still physical in nature. So assuming this is all the souls doing, I'm confused by the mechanics of such. How does the non-physical soul make decisions? Why does it play the game? We know why humans play games. It releases endorphins. But what motivates a soul?

Such an interesting topic!
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
JDMS said:
I think in the creation of this thread I realized that my ideas more closely align with naturalism than with animism. My attachment to animism was my belief that everything in the universe is animated through physical forces. These physical forces create physical 3D structures, which then go on to create the "personality" we see in objects, animals, etc... So I imagined that these physical forces are the "spirit" of all things. But in the end, that makes the "spirit" a natural phenomenon in my view... not the thing that most people are imagining when they use the word.

I'm now realizing that this view of the spirit or soul is stretching so far past the original definition of the word that it's pointless to use it.

Anyway... :oops:
Click to expand...

Here is one way to do it as natural/physical. Accept that, but then understand the world is not just objective, since all cases of cases of cause and effect are not independent of your brain. Your "soul" is the cause and effect, which is you.
 
Heyo

Heyo

Veteran Member
JDMS said:
Hm... I guess I am still confused by this idea since the external character in this scenario is still a physical human with a brain (or a computer) playing the game.
Click to expand...
But the game isn't. It is a reversal of the idea that reality is real and the soul non-physical. In the game, the player is real but the game is non-physical, thus preserving the duality.
 
Ella S.

Ella S.

*temp banned*
JDMS said:
I think in the creation of this thread I realized that my ideas more closely align with naturalism than with animism. My attachment to animism was my belief that everything in the universe is animated through physical forces. These physical forces create physical 3D structures, which then go on to create the "personality" we see in objects, animals, etc... So I imagined that these physical forces are the "spirit" of all things. But in the end, that makes the "spirit" a natural phenomenon in my view... not the thing that most people are imagining when they use the word.

I'm now realizing that this view of the spirit or soul is stretching so far past the original definition of the word that it's pointless to use it.

Anyway... :oops:
Click to expand...

I can relate to naturalizing your spiritual beliefs until it seems odd to continue describing them with supernatural language.
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Ella S. said:
I can relate to naturalizing your spiritual beliefs until it seems odd to continue describing them with supernatural language.
Click to expand...

As a former atheist and still a sort of naturalist, yet also a sort of religious, the soul in naturalistic terms is to me subjectivity, because I can't in effect reduce all of the everyday world down to being objective.
 
osgart

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
To me the soul is that which gives a person personal identity and selfhood. Personal identity is not something that can be detached from. You can deny that self exists, but it's still there.

The soul cannot be grasped physically. Of what stuff it's made of I cannot tell. The inner experience is elusive as to what exactly it is.

People always claim the brain but it's never demonstrated. Some people claim the self doesn't exist or is an hallucination, but that's all talk.
 
mikkel_the_dane

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
osgart said:
To me the soul is that which gives a person personal identity and selfhood. Personal identity is not something that can be detached from. You can deny that self exists, but it's still there.

The soul cannot be grasped physically. Of what stuff it's made of I cannot tell. The inner experience is elusive as to what exactly it is.

People always claim the brain but it's never demonstrated. Some people claim the self doesn't exist or is an hallucination, but that's all talk.
Click to expand...

Well, the self can be understood with or without ontology. That is also a part of it.
 
Quintessence

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
To explore this idea, think for a moment about who you are, as an individual. What you really are. The sum total of everything you were, are, and will be. The past you, the present you the future you. The you that is a walking, talking body. The you that is in the memory and knowledge of others. The you that is interconnected with everything else around you. All of that, rolled together, into the essence of everything of who and what you are from all times, spaces, and perspectives. It is the unbound, immortal, gestalt of everything that is you, bits of which trickle into day-to-day perception but never all at once or in their entirety.

That's soul. Or spirit. Or ideal. Or whatever fancy word you want to use. The word doesn't matter - the idea is it is a placeholder that represents the everything of you, the meta-you, not just the now-you, the physical-you, the thoughts-you, and so forth. You can contemplate what that means (or not) from there as you wish.
 
JDMS

JDMS

Academic Workhorse
I appreciate all the replies. I have read and thought about all of them, even the ones I haven't replied to :)
 
Heyo

Heyo

Veteran Member
PearlSeeker said:
What if the player is also a program (a part of the Matrix)?
Click to expand...
Heyo said:
There are still NPCs, "played" by the computer and sometimes a player character can be overtaken by the program.
Click to expand...
A character not played by a player is an "NPC" (non playing character). It has no soul.
When your character is temporarily not played, the computer takes over (to preserve contingency). The program is usually just "playing" "unconscious character". When the character is forcefully awoken, the player gets an alert to take over again. That can take some time. That's why, from the moment you get out of bed until you had your first coffee, you also have no soul.
 
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