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Souls and Their Emergent Properties

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Well, there is. Take a stone again. Explain it using only natural science and you can. Take reason and you can't do the same. Now do the same with truth and again you can't.

Thought consists of the abstract systems we create to label, organize, reason upon, and communicate. Those abstract constructions reside in our CNS, the CNS that we do not yet fully understand. Abstract constructs like nationality, truth, fairness, are the complex product of our use of abstraction for millennia. All this has been built from very early beginnings of simply pointing and grunting. We take for granted how much of our complex abstract communication is learned through experience and demonstrated example as we develop from infancy through childhood. We not only label things, we label actions and ideas, and these are all learned over time. But all of it is imprinted on our physical brains which can then create relationships, rules of relation, and since it is all only abstraction, imagine the impossible by breaking the rules of relationship that govern the physical world. Just as the abstraction of a winged dragon can be drawn on paper medium, we can equally 'draw' the dragon on the neurochemical medium of the CNS.

Take an advanced robot as an example. It can receive input about its environment, make decisions about that input, and then react to it. All this is accomplished in the CPU or CPU's of the robots 'mind'. Would you not characterize a robots thinking process as purely physical? If so, why cannot our thinking process be considered physical in the same way?
 

MJ Bailey

Member
Emergent properties come into existence sub-atomically. Soul, body, spirit make one individual. Why is it that Humans always try+ to oversimplify complexities while complexing simplicity
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
From those that have experienced such things through their subtle body's senses including masters/clairvoyants of esoteric wisdom traditions like Vedic (Hindu),
How did they figure out how to detect a soul and demonstrate that souls are emergent properties? What is their methodology?

Theosophical and others. Clarification: they are undetectable by the physical senses but the subtle bodies have senses of their own that can detect it. Psychic sensing and in Near Death Experiences people encounter a world of things we cannot physically detect.Question answered above.
Well above, you said that souls are experienced by peoples' "subtle body senses".

How and when has anyone demonstrated that they have "subtle body senses' that other people don't have? They just say so, or ..... ?

Everybody must have a soul to function including your grandfather. At times of death-like trauma the astral body separates from the physical body. People and situations can vary the trigger moment. Everybody's astral body separates at permanent death. Leaving and returning to tell us about it is probably more the exception than the rule.
That doesn't appear to be the case in my grandfather's experience, which was the the reason I pointed it out.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't usually use the term "soul" in my tradition. Where used, I suppose it refers to a conceptual idea or essence that encompasses something's individual identity or nature. Put another way, the "soul" of a thing is the definition of that thing, but not like in a dictionary... in a way that actually encapsulates everything about its true essence and true identity.
 

MJ Bailey

Member
Ask an atom if it needs a neuron electron and proton to be what it is. Who said that being is anything different?
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Souls are required to make us 'alive' and conscious. Without the soul we can only have a comatose existence.

Atoms moving about cannot create consciousness. Consciousness is a fundamental component of reality and must incarnate matter for the physical body to appear conscious.
Two very, very profound statements of presumed fact. I would dearly love to see you provide something other than "pronouncement" to back those statements up.

I rather suspect I'll be waiting until long after I'm dead, and no longer conscious enough to understand it.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Two very, very profound statements of presumed fact. I would dearly love to see you provide something other than "pronouncement" to back those statements up.

I rather suspect I'll be waiting until long after I'm dead, and no longer conscious enough to understand it.
They are not pronouncements but my beliefs based on as I’ve discussed in other posts my analysis of various types of paranormal phenomena and the teachings of wisdom traditions like Vedic (Hindu) and Theosophical.

If you are waiting for me to give you physical proof then, yes, that may not occur before your unfortunate physical demise.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
... If so, why cannot our thinking process be considered physical in the same way?

You really have to learn to check all of your words as you have learned them as a part of culture. You can do it with word God. Now I will do it with the word physical.
The word psychical relates to human behavior. If you do something physical, you do something with your body in relation to some behaviour.
You then do the following. All human behavior can do done physically and answer doing for all other behavior with a mental answer: No, everything is physical! You mentally deny the mental and claim you can do it physically. But you don't. You make a mental model that all is physical and then ignore that the model is mental.
To see a stone and explain a stone is human physical behavior in part. You then claim in effect that you only have to do physical behavior for all of being a human. And the falsification is that you don't do that yourself. You can't do consider as physical. You do it as mental.

So here is your culture as it happens. You take for granted that for what the world is, there is a true dichotomy of physical or supernatural and that is the only way to do that. The world is physical or from God. The one is correct and the other fictional.
The problem is that I don't do any for these 2. I answer in a 3rd way for a different philosophical understanding of how to do it. I use a version of a cultural continental European tradition and answer not what the world is in itself, but what the world is to humans and how we live in the world as a part of the world. It comes in different words but it is a variant of phenomenology and humanistic science. And then you answer with your culture that there is only one science and that is natural science.

So here it is as a skeptic. I know nothing about God and I know nothing about objectively true. And I don't do those 2 variants. I do a 3rd variant, because I am from a different culture than you. And the falsification of your universal we for all humans is that I am not the same as you for how I do the world. And that is what is happening in a lot of threads.
You: I think in the universal correct way for all humans,
Me: I still do it differently and that is the falsification of that it is universal.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
If you believe in souls, what are the specific properties or qualities that you believe souls provide the organisms possessing them? For instance, is consciousness an emergent property of souls? What about emotions, sapience, etc.?

Where does biology stop being able to explain any specific quality we have and souls start doing so, in your view? Or are biology and the soul synonymous?
The material is the time shadow of the spiritual. Man is a spiritual being having a human experience. The soul is a counterpart that develops as a byproduct of doing the will of God.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
To discuss emergent properties of the "soul",
it would be most useful to know what its
fundamental properties are, ie from what
"laws of souls" do they arise?
For example, the 1st Law of thermodynamics
is an emergent property derived from statistical
mechanics (molecules bouncing around).

Emergence - Wikipedia
Excerpted...
The formation of complex symmetrical and fractal patterns in snowflakes exemplifies
emergence in a physical system.

A termite "cathedral" mound produced by a termite colony offers a classic example of emergence in nature
Complex systems
Topics

Self-organization
Collective behavior
Networks
Evolution and adaptation
Pattern formation
Systems theory and cybernetics
Nonlinear dynamics
Game theory
In philosophy, systems theory, science, and art, emergence occurs when an entity is observed to have properties its parts do not have on their own, properties or behaviors that emerge only when the parts interact in a wider whole.

Emergence plays a central role in theories of integrative levels and of complex systems. For instance, the phenomenon of life as studied in biology is an emergent property of chemistry.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Ah, souls. (Say it out loud).

When I was a small child I was told we had souls. For some reason I pictured a soul as being somewhat sausage shaped and located somewhere in my abdomen.

I think that adds as much to the discussion as many posts here.
 
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