Is Jesus God?

Soapy said:

Almighty God…

Jesus was GRANTED the position by almighty God FOR A PERIOD OF TIME - whence HE HANDS IT BACK TO HE WHO GRANTED IT TO HIM… indeed, He is not over He who granted it to him.

This is illustrated in two other stories:

• The book of Esther - Where Mordeciah is granted all powers by king Xerxes … Mordeciah is not over the king though
• Joseph in Egypt - Joseph is granted slm powers to act in place of Pharoah. Joseph us not over Pharoah though

In neither situation is he who granted the power able to usurp he who granted him the power. In fact not only is he who granted the power able to take it back but he who was granted the power does hand it back when the purpose it was granted him has been fulfilled.

In this case, it is AT THE END OF TIME - this is a different matter in that he is granted an everlasting kingdom OF HIS OWN: The physical realm of earth.

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I've already proven by the verse I gave he is NOT handing his kingdom back to anyone! Luke 1:33 So what you said originally is just not true.

He has ALL power in heaven and in earth. He is the head of All principality and power. Colossians 2:10 So there is no one over him.

Soapy said:

I’m not pretending you are trinitarian.

Do you believe Jesus is Almighty God? Yes you do since it is Jesus that died for the sins of mankind and you say he is YHWH (who is actually the Father!)

So, either The Father is also Jesus or Jesus is the Father!

Yes, I know that is only a conundrum of two persons pointing at one God but Trinitarians also say the same thing AS YOU!

So that’s why I asked what the other was doing while one was dying and shedding blood.

Of Course, it’s to your advantage NOT TO TRY TO ANSWER such questions as they expose the folly of your argument!!

And I can’t see post numbers so it’s pointless pointing them out to me.

Just copy them into one post and I’ll see what I can do about answering them (You are aware, though, that’s it’s a typical trinitarian trick to try to claim that an opponent has not answered a post question from way back!!!!)

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He was both Father and Son. Not two different persons, but flesh and Spirit. The Father is the eternal Spirit, and dwelt in the Son (the fleshly body the Father made to sacrifice for our sins).

The Spirit had overshadowed Mary, so the Spirit was the Father of the body, and could call it his Son. But the Son was not another person in the Godhead as Trinitarians claim. Nor was he just a man as you claim.

Soapy said:

These are not valid scriptures translations. But you are saying that ‘He was in the world that he created’ but the world didn’t recognise the great God who created all things?

And that ‘no one has seen God at any time’ but they have seen Jesus ‘Who is that same God’ (???) and is in closest intimacy with that same God… so who exactly IS GOD?

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That and many other scriptures say they didn't recognize him. (1 Corinthians 1:21 and 1 Corinthians 2:8 for instance.) You are denying it because it doesn't line up with your beliefs.

It is true no one can see the invisible God, because God is a Spirit. John 4:24 But once he took on a body (an image) then they could see that body. John 14:9 He was the image (the body) of the invisible God. Colossians 1:15 The fullness of the deity was in that body. Colossians 2:9-10

You ask, so who exactly IS GOD?
God is a Spirit, whose name is YHWH. No man could live a perfect life to bring redemption to mankind. So God said his arm wasn't shortened, he would bring about salvation himself. The Spirit of God didn't have blood, which was necessary, So he took on a body to redeem mankind. It was YHWH himself who shed blood for our sins. Acts 20:28

That's why every knee will bow and every tongue confess that YHWSH is YHWH. (I know our translations have Jesus is Lord) But if you put God's true name back in the scriptures much understanding can be gained. Philippians 2:10-11 Notice the similarity to what YHWH says in Isaiah 45:23

TrueBeliever37 said:

I've already proven by the verse I gave he is NOT handing his kingdom back to anyone! Luke 1:33 So what you said originally is just not true.

He has ALL power in heaven and in earth. He is the head of All principality and power. Colossians 2:10 So there is no one over him.

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YES… AT THE END OF TIME….!

You have joined two different time periods and aspect of Jesus’ rule.

One is NOT an eternal rule:

• “Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. (1 Cor 15:24)
• For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.“ (1 Cor 15:25-27)
• “When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.” (1 Cor 15:28)

So if he ‘HANDS BACK’ to the Father; To God, what GOD; what the Father, granted to him then how is that an ETERNAL RULERSHIP.

No!

It is the SECOND rulership - at the end of time after the judgement that Jesus is granted HIS RULERSHIP OVER THE CREATED WORLD and he takes his seat on the ethereal throne of King David, his ancestor!

• “Of the greatness of his [Jesus Christ] government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.” (Isaiah 9:7)
• “Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Matt 19:28)
• “Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.” (Rev 21:1)

So AFTER the great judgement ALMIGHTY GOD ‘makes all things new (vs. 2-3) and the new earth is the paradise world to be inhabited by the good and faithful and RULED OVER BY Jesus Christ.

TrueBeliever37 said:

He was both Father and Son. Not two different persons, but flesh and Spirit. The Father is the eternal Spirit, and dwelt in the Son (the fleshly body the Father made to sacrifice for our sins).

The Spirit had overshadowed Mary, so the Spirit was the Father of the body, and could call it his Son. But the Son was not another person in the Godhead as Trinitarians claim. Nor was he just a man as you claim.

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‘The spirit was the Father of the body…’

((How do you do laughing out loud emoji’s on here???))

The ‘body’ of a child is from the seed (egg) in the female. It is the spermicide that enlivens and begins the process of inspiriting it into an foetus and thence a baby and a living child at birth.

But since the siren of mankind represents sin, every egg fertilised thus gives rise to a human being who is INHERENTLY sinful. Thus, by the Spirit of God enlivening the SEED OF THE WOMAN, the child to be born is thus SINLESS, RIGHTEOUS, and HOLY!!

Soapy said:

YES… AT THE END OF TIME….!

You have joined two different time periods and aspect of Jesus’ rule.

One is NOT an eternal rule:

• “Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. (1 Cor 15:24)
• For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.“ (1 Cor 15:25-27)
• “When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.” (1 Cor 15:28)

So if he ‘HANDS BACK’ to the Father; To God, what GOD; what the Father, granted to him then how is that an ETERNAL RULERSHIP.

No!

It is the SECOND rulership - at the end of time after the judgement that Jesus is granted HIS RULERSHIP OVER THE CREATED WORLD and he takes his seat on the ethereal throne of King David, his ancestor!

• “Of the greatness of his [Jesus Christ] government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.” (Isaiah 9:7)
• “Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Matt 19:28)
• “Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.” (Rev 21:1)

So AFTER the great judgement ALMIGHTY GOD ‘makes all things new (vs. 2-3) and the new earth is the paradise world to be inhabited by the good and faithful and RULED OVER BY Jesus Christ.

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The problem is you don't understand the passages you are quoting. It does not have the word "Christ" in the Greek in that passage. Translators have assumed that the "he" in those verses is referring to the Messiah. So they paraphrase the verse using the word Christ, and they capitalize Son to make it look like it is referring to the Messiah. When in reality it is referring to man. (or mankind)

The "he" being referred to is Man. God put man and the son of man (descendants of man) in charge of this earthly kingdom. Genesis 1:28 God put everything under man's feet. (Psalms 8:3-8) Man has the power to do as he pleases now. He has free will. He can choose to do good or evil. But when the Messiah returns, man will relinquish all authority given to him. He will no longer be able to do as he pleases. Man will no longer have any say in the issues. There will be a judgement and we will be rewarded for our decisions - both good and bad.

It can't be referring to Messiah since he has already conquered all his enemies, including death. And also as I said before he is going to rule forever. He is not giving his kingdom back to anyone. Luke 1:33

Soapy said:

‘The spirit was the Father of the body…’

((How do you do laughing out loud emoji’s on here???))

The ‘body’ of a child is from the seed (egg) in the female. It is the spermicide that enlivens and begins the process of inspiriting it into an foetus and thence a baby and a living child at birth.

But since the siren of mankind represents sin, every egg fertilised thus gives rise to a human being who is INHERENTLY sinful. Thus, by the Spirit of God enlivening the SEED OF THE WOMAN, the child to be born is thus SINLESS, RIGHTEOUS, and HOLY!!

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That is not scripture. That sounds more like Soapy 3:1

Soapy said:

And I can’t see post numbers so it’s pointless pointing them out to me.

Just copy them into one post and I’ll see what I can do about answering them (You are aware, though, that’s it’s a typical trinitarian trick to try to claim that an opponent has not answered a post question from way back!!!!)

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Here are a few you missed.

1. Who sent the Comforter? (which is the Holy Spirit) John 14:26 says the Father will send the Holy Spirit. While in John 15:26 the Son says I will send the Comforter.

This causes no problem for my position - After all he said I and my Father are one, and if you have seen me you have seen the Father.

2. You said previously the Holy Spirit is just the power of God. What about the following?

God is a Spirit. John 4:24
God is holy. 1 Peter 1:16

Why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Spirit...? Acts 5:3
Thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. Acts 5:4

Soapy said:

Do you believe Jesus is Almighty God? Yes you do since it is Jesus that died for the sins of mankind and you say he is YHWH (who is actually the Father!)

So, either The Father is also Jesus or Jesus is the Father!

Yes, I know that is only a conundrum of two persons pointing at one God but Trinitarians also say the same thing AS YOU!

So that’s why I asked what the other was doing while one was dying and shedding blood.

Of Course, it’s to your advantage NOT TO TRY TO ANSWER such questions as they expose the folly of your argument!!

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I have many proofs. Please try to answer the questions below:

1. The voice in the wilderness was supposed to prepare the way for YHWH. Isaiah 40:3
Say unto the cities of Judah - Behold your God. Isaiah 40:9
The voice is John the Baptist. Matthew 3:1-3 Mark 1:2-4
Question 1: Who was John supposed to prepare the way for according to Isaiah 40:3 above?
(Obviously it was YHWH.)
Question 2: Who showed up when John prepared the way???
(Obviously it was the Messiah, so he has to be YHWH)

2. We shall all stand before the judgement seat of Messiah. 2 Corinthians 5:10
Question 3: So who does that mean has to be sitting on the throne in Revelation 20:11-15 that is judging all mankind?

3. He who was seated on the throne said ... I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. He who overcomes will inherit all things , and I will be his God and he will be my son. Revelation 21:7
Question 4: Who do you say this is seated on the throne and saying he is the Alpha and the Omega?

Behold I am coming soon! My reward is with me....I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the end. Revelation 21:12
Question 5: Who is this coming soon and saying that he is the Alpha and the Omega and the beginning and the end? See Revelation 22:20 for a clue?

Question 6: Can you have more than one that is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the end?

IndigoChild5559 said:

And this is where I do step in--when someone claims that God took on flesh. Four times the Tanakh teaches that the nature of God is that he is not a man. So it is not some minor teaching, but a big deal.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man...nor a son of man.
1 Samuel 15:29 for he is not a man
Hosea 11:9 I am God and not a man
Job 9:32 For he is not a man

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I never said God is a man. God is NOT a man. God is a Spirit. God was dwelling in the body of the Messiah. But God could and did make himself a temporary fleshly body to dwell in and sacrifice for the sins of the world.

TrueBeliever37 said:

The problem is you don't understand the passages you are quoting. It does not have the word "Christ" in the Greek in that passage. Translators have assumed that the "he" in those verses is referring to the Messiah. So they paraphrase the verse using the word Christ, and they capitalize Son to make it look like it is referring to the Messiah. When in reality it is referring to man. (or mankind)

The "he" being referred to is Man. God put man and the son of man (descendants of man) in charge of this earthly kingdom. Genesis 1:28 God put everything under man's feet. (Psalms 8:3-8) Man has the power to do as he pleases now. He has free will. He can choose to do good or evil. But when the Messiah returns, man will relinquish all authority given to him. He will no longer be able to do as he pleases. Man will no longer have any say in the issues. There will be a judgement and we will be rewarded for our decisions - both good and bad.

It can't be referring to Messiah since he has already conquered all his enemies, including death. And also as I said before he is going to rule forever. He is not giving his kingdom back to anyone. Luke 1:33

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You want me to response to that load of desperate nonsense?

TrueBeliever37 said:

That is not scripture. That sounds more like Soapy 3:1

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You don’t even understand biology basics?

• TrueBeliever37 said:

  I have many proofs. Please try to answer the questions below:

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TrueBeliever37 said:

1. The voice in the wilderness was supposed to prepare the way for YHWH. Isaiah 40:3
Say unto the cities of Judah - Behold your God. Isaiah 40:9
The voice is John the Baptist. Matthew 3:1-3 Mark 1:2-4
Question 1: Who was John supposed to prepare the way for according to Isaiah 40:3 above?
(Obviously it was YHWH.)

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Idk g need to TRY TO ANSWER the questions. I WILL answer the questions.

The passage states that the way of the Lord was being prepared. Yes, through Jesus Christ: The servant God sent : Isaiah 42:1.

How many times in scriptures does Jesus say he was ‘SENT BY THE FATHER’?

In fact, if is vital that it is believed that he was SENT by the Father:

• ‘Father,… this means eternal life that they believe in YOU (Father), the only true God - AND IN JESUS CHRIST WHOM YOU (Father) SENT’
• ‘Then Jesus explained: “My nourishment comes from doing the will of God, who sent me, and from finishing his work.’ and when he finished the works:
  
• “I have brought you [Father] glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.”
• “For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.” (John 17:8)

Question 2: Who showed up when John prepared the way???
(Obviously it was the Messiah, so he has to be YHWH)

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• “I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me” (Malachi 3:1)

God sent his servant just as he said: his word is is bond… and his word is truth… and he delivered on the truth of his promise to send a saviour: HIS WORD CAME TRUE: his word BECAME FLESH (an idiom!!)

2. We shall all stand before the judgement seat of Messiah. 2 Corinthians 5:10
Question 3: So who does that mean has to be sitting on the throne in Revelation 20:11-15 that is judging all mankind?

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Jesus is GRANTED to be the judge of all: ‘

• “Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,” (John 5:22)

I think you had better read the rest of the chapter to get the context. Verse 4 says those doing the judging are sat on thrones awaiting their judgement of the resurrected ones…

But the great white throne and him who sat on it is a SEPARATE event and a separate throne to those doing the judging. You are mistaking WHO is doing the judging:

• “I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.” (Rev 20:4)
• Jesus Christ is one of those GIVEN AUTHORITY TO JUDGE (John 5:22)

3. He who was seated on the throne said ... I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. He who overcomes will inherit all things , and I will be his God and he will be my son. Revelation 21:7
Question 4: Who do you say this is seated on the throne and saying he is the Alpha and the Omega?

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Almighty God is on that throne. It’s quite obvious since He says that he who overcomes will inherit all things: and we already know that this means firstly Jesus Christ. And that Jesus claims the Father as his God! (‘I am going to my God … my Father…’)

But ‘Alpha and Omega’ is not an exclusive title. It simply means “THE ONLY ONE” - same as “First and Last”. ……. The only one…….!!!!

God is the only true God

Jesus is the only begotten Son

Behold I am coming soon! My reward is with me....I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the end. Revelation 21:12
Question 5: Who is this coming soon and saying that he is the Alpha and the Omega and the beginning and the end? See Revelation 22:20 for a clue?

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Search the scriptures: ALMIGHTY GOD is NEVER said to be ‘Coming’ anywhere. YHWH never leaves his (metaphorical) throne!!!

Scriptures only ever speaks of Jesus Christ ‘Coming’!!

Question 6: Can you have more than one that is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the end?

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Can you have more than ONE?

Yes! There is ONE ME … There is ONE YOU…. There is ONE Apple in my fruit bowl on my ONE Table in my ONE living room in my ONE House!!

‘Alpha and Omega’ - ‘First and Last’ - ‘Beginning and End’ …
All mean the ONE SAME THING expressed in different idioms: ‘Above all [things]’

TrueBeliever37 said:

I never said God is a man. God is NOT a man. God is a Spirit. God was dwelling in the body of the Messiah. But God could and did make himself a temporary fleshly body to dwell in and sacrifice for the sins of the world.

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You are expecting me to quibble with you over your claim that Jesus was a man husk that God's spirit filled. I'm not going to do that. The different ways of saying that Jesus was a man who was God are battles between Christians. I'm only here to state that the Tanakh teaches God is not a man, not in any way, shape, size or form, including your own husk that is filled version.

IndigoChild5559 said:

You said, "A person without the Holy Spirit has very little chance at all of recognizing voices." That is not an argument. That is a personal attack, and therefore fallacious in terms of logic.

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I believe I do not do personal attacks. I speak the truth and sometimes that hurts.

There is a basis for my belief: I Cor. 12:7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. I Cor. 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues

Muffled said:

I believe I do not do personal attacks. I speak the truth and sometimes that hurts.

There is a basis for my belief: I Cor. 12:7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. I Cor. 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues

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If someone is ugly, is it okay to tell them that they are ugly? "Telling the truth" is not adequate reason for being rude and mean.

By personal attack, I am referring to the fact that you are avoiding dealing with the issue being discussed and not replying to the comments of others, but instead attack them personally. Saying "A person without the Holy Spirit has very little chance at all of recognizing voices" is an example of doing this.