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Is Jesus God?

T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Soapy said:
All power and authority GRANTED TO Jesus was AFTER HE HAD ACCOMPLISHED the delivery of the word that God:YHWH, gave him to deliver to the people.

Having power and authority granted to him DOES NOT make him EQUAL to the Father. That’s a ridiculous idea. The P&A is only LOANED to him in order to carry out what was to come (The restoration of the world order AFTER he is taken up to Heaven). You will read that he ‘HANDS IT BACK TO GOD’ when his task is accomplished.

The scriptures always validated itself - if you care about the truth.
Click to expand...

If you are the head of all principality and power, then who is over you? Colossians 2:10

He is not handing his power or rule back to anyone! There is no end to his kingdom and he will rule forever. Luke 1:33

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. John 1:10-11 I ask you - who was that?
 
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T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
moorea944 said:
Bible doesnt say that. Every atom in the universe. We sometimes dont get to know all of God's ways. We can only guess. So what does "all authority" mean? We are not told. But what IS told... is that Jesus was given it by God. Simple to understand. Are you saying that God gave it to himself?... I hope not...
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All power is given unto me in heaven and on earth. Matthew 28:18 After the body was resurrected a glorified spiritual body that can never die, he had all power. Yes the Spirit gave that glorified body all power. Previous to the resurrection, the body was in a state of weakness.
 
Soapy

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
IndigoChild5559 said:
I'll let your fellow christians deal with you. What you just said is not considered orthodoxy. But I have no dog in the race.
Click to expand...
Exactly… like as if it’s coherent to say that:
  • ‘The spirit of God made a body for himself’
is that which scriptures states:
  • ‘A body YOU have made FOR ME’
Trinitarians will say anything no matter how inconsistent …, one claim here that contradicts another sane claim there….

Consider that ‘God’ to them is
  • ‘God’ is “Father, Son, and [holy] Spirit”
Hold that definition hard in mind!!

Now look at:
  • ‘Jesus’ is “SON of God”
Replace the definition of ‘God’ into the secondary claim:
  • ‘Jesus’ is ‘Son of “Father, Son, and [holy] Spirit”
Now, it could be argued that ‘of’ could be interpreted as ‘in’… that Jesus us the Son in the three of the persons of their’ God’ definition. Yes, true…. And that would apply to the Spirit IN the definition of ‘GOD’ for the same reason…..

I guess you can see what’s coming next….?!!

Yes, what about the ‘Father’… ‘Father of God’ (‘Father’ IN their definition of “God”)?

And, of course, ‘Jesus is also ‘Son of the Father’.

Have you noticed that Trinitarians never give a definition of ‘Father’ or ‘Son’ nor their relationship that sets out the reason for a heirachial difference - DESPITE the trinitarian claim that they are fully EQUAL with each other!

And you notice I don’t say much about the spirit of God; which is also the ‘spirit of the Father’!

All in all, what this exposes is a reason why they don’t explain any of these things - relying on INSULTING claims that everything is TOO COMPLEX FOR OUR TINY MINDS and trinity is INCOMPREHENSIBLE… (I think they probably regret making that last claim now!!)

But notice that Jesus claimed to have fully revealed the Father (why only the Father!!?) to mankind - Yet trinity claims that he did not… !!

Hmmm… Now if Satan wanted to discredit the message God (?) gave to Jesus to give to his servant(s) (Rev 1:1), what things could he do to those messages by way of the scriptures and those who are given to express the scriptures???

Join the circle and go back to the beginning of this response to you…! Cause them to be deluded!!
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Soapy said:
Exactly… like as if it’s coherent to say that:
  • ‘The spirit of God made a body for himself’
is that which scriptures states:
  • ‘A body YOU have made FOR ME’
Trinitarians will say anything no matter how inconsistent …, one claim here that contradicts another sane claim there….

Consider that ‘God’ to them is
  • ‘God’ is “Father, Son, and [holy] Spirit”
Hold that definition hard in mind!!

Now look at:
  • ‘Jesus’ is “SON of God”
Replace the definition of ‘God’ into the secondary claim:
  • ‘Jesus’ is ‘Son of “Father, Son, and [holy] Spirit”
Now, it could be argued that ‘of’ could be interpreted as ‘in’… that Jesus us the Son in the three of the persons of their’ God’ definition. Yes, true…. And that would apply to the Spirit IN the definition of ‘GOD’ for the same reason…..

I guess you can see what’s coming next….?!!

Yes, what about the ‘Father’… ‘Father of God’ (‘Father’ IN their definition of “God”)?

And, of course, ‘Jesus is also ‘Son of the Father’.

Have you noticed that Trinitarians never give a definition of ‘Father’ or ‘Son’ nor their relationship that sets out the reason for a heirachial difference - DESPITE the trinitarian claim that they are fully EQUAL with each other!

And you notice I don’t say much about the spirit of God; which is also the ‘spirit of the Father’!

All in all, what this exposes is a reason why they don’t explain any of these things - relying on INSULTING claims that everything is TOO COMPLEX FOR OUR TINY MINDS and trinity is INCOMPREHENSIBLE… (I think they probably regret making that last claim now!!)

But notice that Jesus claimed to have fully revealed the Father (why only the Father!!?) to mankind - Yet trinity claims that he did not… !!

Hmmm… Now if Satan wanted to discredit the message God (?) gave to Jesus to give to his servant(s) (Rev 1:1), what things could he do to those messages by way of the scriptures and those who are given to express the scriptures???

Join the circle and go back to the beginning of this response to you…! Cause them to be deluded!!
Click to expand...
Like I said, as a Jew, I have no dog in this race. To me Jesus is just a nice Jewish man who tried and failed to be the messiah. If you want to argue about teh difference between Son of God and God the Son, you'll have to find a Christian to debate.
 
Soapy

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
IndigoChild5559 said:
Like I said, as a Jew, I have no dog in this race. To me Jesus is just a nice Jewish man who tried and failed to be the messiah. If you want to argue about teh difference between Son of God and God the Son, you'll have to find a Christian to debate.
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Oh, ok!

So what is your purpose in these debates?
 
T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
I'll let your fellow christians deal with you. What you just said is not considered orthodoxy. But I have no dog in the race.
Click to expand...

Except that it is YHWH, the one and only God that took on flesh and shed his blood for man's sin.

It wasn't another person like the Trinitarians believe.
 
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T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Soapy said:
So what were the other two greater and lesser Gods doing while the middle God was shedding his blood?
Click to expand...

We have discussed things before, so you know I am not a Trinitarian. Even though you like to pretend like I am. So your question doesn't even apply to me.

WHY did you AVOID answering ANY of the questions I just asked you in the above posts 2457, 2459, 2461, and 2463?
 
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Soapy

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
TrueBeliever37 said:
We have discussed things before, so you know I am not a Trinitarian. Even though you like to pretend like I am. So your question doesn't even apply to me.

WHY did you AVOID answering ANY of the questions I just asked you in the above posts 2457, 2459, 2461, and 2463?
Click to expand...
I’m not pretending you are trinitarian.

Do you believe Jesus is Almighty God? Yes you do since it is Jesus that died for the sins of mankind and you say he is YHWH (who is actually the Father!)

So, either The Father is also Jesus or Jesus is the Father!

Yes, I know that is only a conundrum of two persons pointing at one God but Trinitarians also say the same thing AS YOU!

So that’s why I asked what the other was doing while one was dying and shedding blood.

Of Course, it’s to your advantage NOT TO TRY TO ANSWER such questions as they expose the folly of your argument!!

And I can’t see post numbers so it’s pointless pointing them out to me.

Just copy them into one post and I’ll see what I can do about answering them (You are aware, though, that’s it’s a typical trinitarian trick to try to claim that an opponent has not answered a post question from way back!!!!)
 
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T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Soapy said:
I’m not pretending you are trinitarian.
Click to expand...

Really? Then why did you say this in your post to Indigo? Regarding a post I had made to Indigo.

Exactly… like as if it’s coherent to say that:
  • ‘The spirit of God made a body for himself’
is that which scriptures states:
  • ‘A body YOU have made FOR ME’
Trinitarians will say anything no matter how inconsistent …, one claim here that contradicts another sane claim there….
 
T

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Soapy said:
I’m not pretending you are trinitarian.

(You are aware, though, that’s it’s a typical trinitarian trick to try to claim that an opponent has not answered a post question from way back!!!!)
Click to expand...

Even in this very post you are insinuating I am a trinitarian. And It wasn't a trick, you did NOT answer the questions.

Look back through just the last couple of pages of posts and you should find them.
 
Soapy

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
TrueBeliever37 said:
If you are the head of all principality and power, then who is over you? Colossians 2:10
Click to expand...
Almighty God…

Jesus was GRANTED the position by almighty God FOR A PERIOD OF TIME - whence HE HANDS IT BACK TO HE WHO GRANTED IT TO HIM… indeed, He is not over He who granted it to him.

This is illustrated in two other stories:
  • The book of Esther - Where Mordeciah is granted all powers by king Xerxes … Mordeciah is not over the king though
  • Joseph in Egypt - Joseph is granted slm powers to act in place of Pharoah. Joseph us not over Pharoah though
In neither situation is he who granted the power able to usurp he who granted him the power. In fact not only is he who granted the power able to take it back but he who was granted the power does hand it back when the purpose it was granted him has been fulfilled.
He is not handing his power or rule back to anyone! There is no end to his kingdom and he will rule forever. Luke 1:33
Click to expand...
In this case, it is AT THE END OF TIME - this is a different matter in that he is granted an everlasting kingdom OF HIS OWN: The physical realm of earth.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. John 1:10-11 I ask you - who was that?
Click to expand...
These are not valid scriptures translations. But you are saying that ‘He was in the world that he created’ but the world didn’t recognise the great God who created all things?

And that ‘no one has seen God at any time’ but they have seen Jesus ‘Who is that same God’ (???) and is in closest intimacy with that same God… so who exactly IS GOD?
 
Soapy

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
TrueBeliever37 said:
Even in this very post you are insinuating I am a trinitarian. And It wasn't a trick, you did NOT answer the questions.

Look back through just the last couple of pages of posts and you should find them.
Click to expand...
I have loads of things to do in my daily life. I’m on several forum threads so it’s likely I might have missed a few posts here and there.

repost the ones you feel are most relevant if you feel you really need an answer!

The posts about John 1:1….x - These have been done to death for millenia. John 1:1 etc., has been discredited so much that only Trinitarians that desire falsehood as their doctrine continue to quote these verses as evidence of a pre-existent Christ. It doesn’t occur to them (you) that John the apostle did not know how the world was created nor alluded to it at any other time: Can you believe that the greatest event in the totality of history is an unquantified aspect of a pre-existent GOD person!

Plus, nothing is written concerning a pre-existent Jesus and not even that there were THREE PERSONS as ONE GOD… but then John the apostle wrote the words of Jesus wherein he quotes Jesus saying that:
  • THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD
How do you go from DISBELIEVING Jesus Christ that the Father is the only true God, to saying that Jesus is THE ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD who is in closest intimacy WITH GOD!

And you claim you have truth???
 
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Soapy

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
TrueBeliever37 said:
Luke 24:51-52 - and they worshipped him...
Click to expand...
The word is mistranslated. It should be ‘obeisance’ not ‘Worship’.

You must be new to debates on the truth of scripture translation from Greek -> Latin -> English.

The Jews were seeking ways to get Jesus arrested and certainly being ‘Worshipped’ is a way to do it. Yet no one made a claim that ‘Only God must be worshipped - and you aren’t God’.

And, of course, those ‘worshipping’ a man would be arrested as well.

Come in, don’t dream up nonsense to try to force a fallacy. Was king David ‘worshipped’ by Bathsheba at his bedside? You’d say no - the word wasn’t ‘Worship’! But it’s the same word (in Hebrew) - but Trinitarians sag that it’s ok because king David was a man so the word can’t be ‘Worship’.

Bowing down to a person of high authority and power is a completely acceptable practice. A judge, a master, a high priest, a king…

Jesus bowed down to wash his disciples feet. Peter tried to stop him but Jesus reprimanded him saying it was necessary for him to do so…

No, shove that silly trinitarian claim where the sun don’t shine and don’t bow down in worship to ridiculous trinitarian desperado claims.
 
Soapy

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
TrueBeliever37 said:
Even in this very post you are insinuating I am a trinitarian. And It wasn't a trick, you did NOT answer the questions.

Look back through just the last couple of pages of posts and you should find them.
Click to expand...
It’s also a trinitarian trick to try to force responses from an opponent if you think you have them on the ropes… well not this one.

It’s simply a way for you to avoid answering to whatever impossible idolatrous claims that get pointed out against you.
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
TrueBeliever37 said:
Except that it is YHWH, the one and only God that took on flesh and shed his blood for man's sin.

It wasn't another person like the Trinitarians believe.
Click to expand...
And this is where I do step in--when someone claims that God took on flesh. Four times the Tanakh teaches that the nature of God is that he is not a man. So it is not some minor teaching, but a big deal.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man...nor a son of man.
1 Samuel 15:29 for he is not a man
Hosea 11:9 I am God and not a man
Job 9:32 For he is not a man
 
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