Fighting in Islam

InvestigateTruth said:

There is other possibilities:

Some Muslims misinterpreted the Quran, because they followed their own wishes, rather than what actually Quran says. In other words, they interpreted the Quran the way they want.

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No, that is not another possibility. It's just more of Allah being too incompetent to know his audience - you know - the audience that HE created, and whose "heart he knows", according to many verses. If Allah left it that open to being misused, then he FAILED. Period.

Some other Muslims, were not really believers in their heart, but rather they pretended to be believers because they could then use religion to control and conquer.

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But, enough about Mohamed ......

Then there are Muslims who believe and also know its interpretation but they did not act on it practically.

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Correct, and they are therefore in violation of verse 9:111, which says their end of the bargain in which Allah will grant them heaven, is to "fight in the cause of Allah. To kill and be killed".

stevecanuck said:

No, that is not another possibility. It's just more of Allah being too incompetent to know his audience - you know - the audience that HE created, and whose "heart he knows", according to many verses. If Allah left it that open to being misused, then he FAILED. Period.

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There is another possibility. Allah intentionally misguided them, so, They do not understand, or He put a seal on their heart, because they were arrogant.
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But, enough about Mohamed ......
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OK
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Correct, and they are therefore in violation of verse 9:111, which says their end of the bargain in which Allah will grant them heaven, is to "fight in the cause of Allah. To kill and be killed".

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Ok

InvestigateTruth said:

There is another possibility. Allah intentionally misguided them, so, They do not understand, or He put a seal on their heart, because they were arrogant.

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According to the Qur'an Allah causes the birth of every person. However, he makes some of those people so arrogant that he then feels the need to misguide them so that they will spend eternity being roasted in Hell, regenerated, and then roasted again. And this little game NEVER stops.

That's quite the god you have there. You can keep him.

stevecanuck said:

Verse 2:190? Ok, now read 2:191.

For Mohamed to order military action "in the cause of God", he was faced with being able to claim that a clearly offensive strike would be justified and in compliance with God's wishes. The Qur'an would therefore have to supply him with two revelations that were not so much as hinted at in all 86 Meccan surahs - a direct command to fight, and moral justification for taking lives. To that end, the following two verses were conveniently revealed:

- 190 "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors".
- 191 "And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression (fitnah) are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith".

Verse 190 provided the order to fight, but only in self defense, which by itself did not justify an attack against the pagans as there is no indication in the Qur'an that any Muslims had been killed. Therefore, Mohamed could not accuse them of being "those who fight you". He immediately solved that problem in 191 by providing a work-around that moves the goal posts in such a vague and open-end manner as to designate virtually any unbeliever an enemy. It breaks down as follows:

- "And slay them wherever ye catch them" removed any doubt that blood-letting had been introduced to Islam.
- "and turn them out from where they have turned you out" is a clear reference to Mohamed's claim that he was forced to flee Mecca.
- "for tumult and oppression (fitnah) are worse than slaughter" introduced 'fitnah' as a catch-all crime against Islam that, in the space of one verse, effectively dropped self defense to second place as a reason to make war.

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Not at all. The Muslims were hunted down in order to wipe them out entirely which caused them to flee to Abyssinia then Medina where the verse to fight was revealed. But there were conditions.

They were only to attack those who attacked them or secretly betrayed them and were assisting their enemies and anyone who offered peace to reciprocate with peace.

8:61

But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

Muhammad and the Quran taught freedom of religion, justice, peace and human rights. The Muslims very survival was threatened with genocide so they really had no choice at that time or their entire community would have been wiped out.

Good and evil are never equal. Repel evil with good, and your enemy will become like an intimate friend.(41:34)

stevecanuck said:

According to the Qur'an Allah causes the birth of every person. However, he makes some of those people so arrogant that he then feels the need to misguide them so that they will spend eternity being roasted in Hell, regenerated, and then roasted again. And this little game NEVER stops.

That's quite the god you have there. You can keep him.

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Yes, God creates both light and darkness. He creates good and evil. This world is a school. All of it is needed.

stevecanuck said:

Verse 8:39 is another that suggests on-going fighting to establish world-wide Islamic rule.

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It looks like I didn't read far enough in this surah. Rememeber when I mentioned that in my previous research, violence in the Quran is moderated by the surrounding verses? As one of the other posters mentioned, 8:61 can be understood to moderate 8:37-39. What are your thoughts on this?

dybmh said:

It looks like I didn't read far enough in this surah. Rememeber when I mentioned that in my previous research, violence in the Quran is moderated by the surrounding verses? As one of the other posters mentioned, 8:61 can be understood to moderate 8:37-39. What are your thoughts on this?

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It says, "If they (the unbelievers) incline towards peace, then incline to it also". Again, we have a passage that, if taken out of context, could easily be used to claim that Muslims only fight in self defense. However, we already know that the Muslims initiated hostilities against the pagans for the 'crime' of committing 'fitnah' (2:191). It would make no sense to launch an attack predicated on differences of belief, only to stop fighting without resolving those differences. Therefore, to "incline towards peace" must mean that the pagans would have had to agree to cease the activity for which they were attacked in the first place - their rejection of Mohamed and Islam.

The words 'islam', 'muslim', and 'salaam' predate the religion of Islam. They mean 'submission/surrender', 'one who submits/surrenders', and 'peace (of having surrendered)' respectively. For the last 1400 years they are assumed to relate to the religion of Islam unless otherwise stated.

In Arabic, words that contain the same 3 consonants in the same order are related. For example, 'Islam', 'muslim', and 'salaam' are related by the letters seen, lam and meem ( س ل م - read from right to left). That gives Islamopropagandists a perfect opening to commit some very clever sophistry. Given that the words are indeed derivations of the same root, they tell us that saying 'Islam' is the same as saying 'peace'. If we accept that basic truth on its surface meaning, we will conclude that any act of violence is therefore directly opposed to the very meaning of the word 'islam'. Mission accomplished.

What they don't want you to realize is that it works both ways. If Islam, by definition, means peace, then it must follow that peace, also by definition, means Islam. In other words, no Islam - no peace.

loverofhumanity said:

Not at all. The Muslims were hunted down in order to wipe them out entirely which caused them to flee to Abyssinia ........

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That is a big fat lie. Muslims were sent to Abyssinia because Mohamed was afraid for their safety, but to say they were hunted down is pure fabrication.

stevecanuck said:

It says, "If they (the unbelievers) incline towards peace, then incline to it also". Again, we have a passage that, if taken out of context, could easily be used to claim that Muslims only fight in self defense. However, we already know that the Muslims initiated hostilities against the pagans for the 'crime' of committing 'fitnah' (2:191). It would make no sense to launch an attack predicated on differences of belief, only to stop fighting without resolving those differences. Therefore, to "incline towards peace" must mean that the pagans would have had to agree to cease the activity for which they were attacked in the first place - their rejection of Mohamed and Islam.

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I see that fitnah has several meanings. I don't know arabic, so I cannot argue which meaning is appropriate here. Wikipedia indicates in 191, al-fitnatu is oppression. I don't know why, but that's what they say. I looked it up on corpus.quran and of their digest of translations, a few leave fitnah untranslated, yusuf ali has it as oppression, there are a couple that call it persecution, and one translation uses your catch-all definition as "disbelief". So it really hinges on a minority opinion of the definition of fitnah?

stevecanuck said:

The words 'islam', 'muslim', and 'salaam' predate the religion of Islam. They mean 'submission/surrender', 'one who submits/surrenders', and 'peace (of having surrendered)' respectively. For the last 1400 years they are assumed to relate to the religion of Islam unless otherwise stated.

In Arabic, words that contain the same 3 consonants in the same order are related. For example, 'Islam', 'muslim', and 'salaam' are related by the letters seen, lam and meem ( س ل م - read from right to left). That gives Islamopropagandists a perfect opening to commit some very clever sophistry. Given that the words are indeed derivations of the same root, they tell us that saying 'Islam' is the same as saying 'peace'. If we accept that basic truth on its surface meaning, we will conclude that any act of violence is therefore directly opposed to the very meaning of the word 'islam'. Mission accomplished.

What they don't want you to realize is that it works both ways. If Islam, by definition, means peace, then it must follow that peace, also by definition, means Islam. In other words, no Islam - no peace.

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Sure, why not? But that ^^ could be an inner peace. No submission, no inner peace? No problem, not a violent directive.

stevecanuck said:

That is a big fat lie. Muslims were sent to Abyssinia because Mohamed was afraid for their safety, but to say they were hunted down is pure fabrication.

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As both you and I weren’t there at the time the only first hand record of the reason they migrated to Abyssinia is in the Quran. When they arrived the Meccans sent emissaries to king Nagus to demand they be handed over. Muslims were killed and tortured in Mecca.

Those who migrate for the sake of Allah after having been wronged, We will surely settle them in a good place in the world, and the rewards of the Hereafter is surely greater, had they known. Those who are patient and put their trust in their Lord. (16:41-42)

The Persecution, Torture And Murder Of Muslims In The Makkan Period

dybmh said:

I see that fitnah has several meanings. I don't know arabic, so I cannot argue which meaning is appropriate here. Wikipedia indicates in 191, al-fitnatu is oppression. I don't know why, but that's what they say. I looked it up on corpus.quran and of their digest of translations, a few leave fitnah untranslated, yusuf ali has it as oppression, there are a couple that call it persecution, and one translation uses your catch-all definition as "disbelief". So it really hinges on a minority opinion of the definition of fitnah?

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Fitnah appears 60 times in the Qur'an according to one site I found. Basically, IMO, it covers anything that does not promote the practice and/or spread of Islam.

Sure, why not? But that ^^ could be an inner peace. No submission, no inner peace? No problem, not a violent directive.

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Allah states several times in the Qur'an that he requires action as proof of faith. Verse 9:111 (one of the final verses) states the bargain in no uncertain terms.

loverofhumanity said:

As both you and I weren’t there at the time the only first hand record of the reason they migrated to Abyssinia is in the Quran. When they arrived the Meccans sent emissaries to king Nagus to demand they be handed over. Muslims were killed and tortured in Mecca.

Those who migrate for the sake of Allah after having been wronged, We will surely settle them in a good place in the world, and the rewards of the Hereafter is surely greater, had they known. Those who are patient and put their trust in their Lord. (16:41-42)

The Persecution, Torture And Murder Of Muslims In The Makkan Period

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Those are a lot of claims that can be neither verified nor disproved. So, I have a question for you. If the Meccans were so bent on killing people who converted, why didn't they just go to the source of the problem and kill Mohamed? After all, they had 12 years to do it.

stevecanuck said:

Those are a lot of claims that can be neither verified nor disproved. So, I have a question for you. If the Meccans were so bent on killing people who converted, why didn't they just go to the source of the problem and kill Mohamed? After all, they had 12 years to do it.

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Yes true. We can only refer to sources which we believe are reliable but apart the Quran there are stories of many various attempts on Muhammad’s life. This is one of the main ones.

Stories of the Prophets | Alim.org

stevecanuck said:

Those are a lot of claims that can be neither verified nor disproved..

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Mmm .. but that does not include your claim that the Qur'an teaches conquest of disbelievers without provocation.

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
Qur'an 2:190

Of course, the problem always arise as to what constitutes "hostilities" .. nevertheless..

Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
Qur'an 4:90

Naturally, you would rather ignore these verses, as it doesn't suit your agenda of spreading misinformation.

muhammad_isa said:

..... your agenda of spreading misinformation.

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Yet you're the one quoting 2:190 while refusing to acknowledge 2:191's additional directives.

muhammad_isa said:

Mmm .. but that does not include your claim that the Qur'an teaches conquest of disbelievers without provocation.

Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
Qur'an 2:190

Of course, the problem always arise as to what constitutes "hostilities" .. nevertheless..

Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
Qur'an 4:90

Naturally, you would rather ignore these verses, as it doesn't suit your agenda of spreading misinformation.

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I praise and commend you for telling the truth. I sometimes wish I was born in an Arabic speaking country as even in English the Quran is so incredible. People sadly, seeking to defame Islam, will spread misinformation. It’s the same with any religion. The Holy Books teach love, justice and mercy but then the followers act contrary and bring the entire religion a bad name.

To be fair, people expect the purest and noblest of deeds from those who claim to have the truth otherwise they have every right to level the charge of hypocrisy at us.

So those claiming to have truth must prove it in their deeds. People do not trust words alone.

loverofhumanity said:

The Holy Books teach love, justice and mercy

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- 2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah".
- 2:191 "And slay them ... slay them".
- 2:193 "Fight with them".
- 2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you".
- 2:218 "those who ... fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah".
- 2:224 "So fight in God's way".
- 2:264 "give us victory over the disbelieving people".
- 8:12 "Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them".
- 8:17 "And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them".
- 8:39 "fight them".
- 8:65 "O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight".
- 3:143 "And certainly you desired death [martyrdom in battle]".
- 3:145 "in their fight for the cause of God".
- 3:146 "grant us victory over the unbelievers".
- 3:152 "when you slew them by His permission".
- 3:157 "And if you are slain in the way of Allah or you die, certainly forgiveness comes from Allah".
- 3:158 "Whether you die or are killed, unto Allah you will be gathered".
- 3:167 "Come now, fight in the way of God".
- 3:169 "Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead".
- 33:16 "Flight will not avail you if ye flee from death or killing".
- 33:18 "Allah knows those among you who come not to the fight".
- 33:20 "They [Hypocrites] would not fight except for a little".
- 33:26 "some you [Mohamed] killed"
- 33:61 "wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering".
- 4:71 "Believers, march [to battle] in small groups or all together".
- 4:74 "Those who want to buy the life hereafter with this life should fight for the cause of God".
- 4:75 "And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah".
- 4:76 "Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of Satan".
- 4:77 "when the fighting was ordained for them ... they say: 'Our Lord! Why have you ordained for us fighting?'".
- 4:84 "Then fight in Allah's cause ... and rouse the believers".
- 4:89 "seize them and slay them wherever ye find them".
- 4:91 "seize them and slay them".
- 4:94 "go forth [to fight] in the cause of Allah".
- 4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) ... to those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah".
" Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight".
"Those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home)".
- 4:110 "Forsake your home in the cause of Allah".
- 4:104 "Relent not in pursuit of the enemy".

continued ....

- 47:4 "So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike their necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them ...".
"God could have taken vengeance upon them, but (He ordered armed struggle) to test some of you ...".
"Those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds".
- 47:20 through 47:23 "when a precise surah is revealed and fighting is mentioned therein, you see those in whose hearts is hypocrisy looking at you with a look of one overcome by death... when the matter (preparation for Jihad) is resolved, then if they had been true to Allah [by fighting], it would have been better for them".
- 47:31 "We will surely test you until We make evident those who strive [wage jihad]".
- 47:35 "So do not weaken and call for peace while you are superior".
- 22:58 "Those who emigrated for the cause of Allah and then were killed or died - Allah will surely provide for them a good provision".
- 49:15 "The believers ... strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah".
- 66:9 "O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them".
- 61:4 "Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure".
- 61:10 through 61:13 "Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty? You shall believe in Allah and His Messenger, and struggle hard in Allah's way with your property and your lives. He will admit you to Gardens. and other things you love, help from God and a nigh victory".
- 48:16 "You shall be called against a people possessed of great might to fight them".
- 48:29 "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers".
- 5:33 "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified".
- 5:35 - "O ye who believe! ... strive in His way".
- 5:54 "mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way".
- 9;5, "kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush".
- 9:13 "Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first".
- 9:14 "Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands".
- 9:16 "Do you think that you will be left (as you are) while Allah has not yet made evident those among you who strive (for His cause)".
- 9:19 "strives in the cause of Allah".
- 9:20 "The ones who have believed, emigrated and striven in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives".
- 9:29 "Fight against those who have been given the Scripture [Jews and Christians]".
- 9:30 "The Christians say the Messiah is the son of Allah ... May Allah destroy them".
- 9:36 "Fight against the disbelievers".
- 9:38 "What is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth?".
- 9:39 "If you do not go forth, He will punish you".
- 9:41 "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah".
- 9:44 "Those who believe in God and the Day of Judgment do not ask you whether they should fight for the cause of God".
- 9:45 "It is only those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and whose hearts are in doubt that ask your leave (to be exempted from Jihad)" [clarification added by Mohsin Khan translation].
- 9:52 "Can you expect for us (any fate) other than one of two glorious things- (Martyrdom or victory)?".
- 9:73 "O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them".
- 9:81 "they hated to strive and fight with their properties and their lives in the Cause of Allah''.
- 9:86 "Believe in Allah and strive hard along with His Messenger".
- 9:88 "But the messenger and those who believe with him strive with their wealth and their lives".
- 9:93 "The blameworthy ones are those who ask for exemption [from fighting] despite their ability".
- 9:111 "Surely Allah has bought from the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain".
- 9:123 "Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you"

@stevecanuck

yeah, we get the picture. Muslims are ordered to fight.

Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.
- Winston Churchill -

Defence .. it is part of faith.

muhammad_isa said:

@stevecanuck

Defence .. it is part of faith.

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Muslim armies 'defended' themselves throughout the ME, north Africa, and Iberia in the first wave of conquests. They then turned their attentions east. Currently they are 'defending' themselves across the entire Sahel.