Sheldon
Veteran Member
Since Mathew is a fictitious name added centuries later, and the text the name was assigned to is hearsay at best, this seems like an odd double standard, to demand "documented evidence"?
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Three Days and Three Nights
- Thread starter rstrats
- Start date
Since Mathew is a fictitious name added centuries later, and the text the name was assigned to is hearsay at best, this seems like an odd double standard, to demand "documented evidence"?
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
It was the greatest Sign that Yeshua was to show for which Yeshua being an Israelite himself referenced no original Greek NT Gospel but the Israelite Scripture, which mentioned it, and it is:
Yonah - Jonah - Chapter 2 (Jewish Bible)
1And the Lord appointed a huge fish to swallow up Jonah, and Jonah was in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights.
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16184/jewish/Chapter-2.htm
The essence of the Sign of Jonah was that Jonah entered the fish alive, he remained alive in the fish (though in a precarious condition), he came out of fish alive, and he went to the people to whom he was sent with a message from G-d, and they accepted the message; all along Jonah did not die for a moment, please. Right?
Yeshua did show this Sign of Jonah and went through all the above stages, and he did not dies in the event of Cross.
Since Hellenist Paul faked a vision, it transpires, and self-styled himself an Apostle so Paul came up with this notion that:
- Jesus died on the Cross
- rose from the dead the third day (dying rising Hellenist Deity)
- became Son of God rather a God himself
- ascended to heaven
- sat on the right hand of God
- assumed full power of God
Regards
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Jesus said that in the same way Jonah was three days and three nights in the fish, he would be three days and three nights in the tomb. No body claims that Jonah was only in the fish for a day and a half so why claim Jesus was only in the tomb for a day and a half? If Jesus was not in the tomb for three full days and three full nights then he was a liar and not someone we should worship. Do you believe Jesus was a liar? Yes? Right?
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
" If Jesus was not in the tomb for three full days and three full nights then he was a liar and not someone we should worship."
Did any of the believers here say that Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah was a liar, please? Right?
Why don't the Hellenist Paulines admit that:
- It was the Hellenist Paul who was a liar,
- who first of all faked a vision and
- then self styled himself an Apostle,
- then made false creeds of Hellenist Pauline Christianity
- that have nothing to do with Yeshua his teachings , his deeds and the path Yeshua followed, please?
Regards
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
I am asking what YOU believe. Not all the believers here. Jesus said he would be 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb. Did he lie? Was he only there parts of three days and nights? What do YOU say?
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
lostwanderingsoul said: ↑
Jesus said that in the same way Jonah was three days and three nights in the fish, he would be three days and three nights in the tomb. No body claims that Jonah was only in the fish for a day and a half so why claim Jesus was only in the tomb for a day and a half? If Jesus was not in the tomb for three full days and three full nights then he was a liar and not someone we should worship. Do you believe Jesus was a liar? Yes? Right?
The anonymous Gospel narratives:
As a thief would leave clues of the theft, so even if doctored, these gospels have clues that they have been doctored, one gets to know, please. Right?
Regards
________________
Jesus dies around AD 33
But despite this impossible timeline, many churches decided that Paul must have converted in CE 33 (36 A.D. #3, KenS timline
https://lightofword.org/images/stories/teachings/Acts/timeline4.pdf )
Paul then has a vision on the road to Damascus somewhere between 33 and 37 CE
Mark being the original (or the oldest we have), and the rest are just copies of Mark with embellishments. The first four books of the new testament are actually Mark with added stuff, Mark, Mark with added stuff, and Mark with a lot of added stuff. They were created toward the end of the first century to retro-fit prophesy, in order to benefit the Romans.
Paul never met Jesus. He specifically said so, and he also never talked to anyone that gave him information about Jesus
https://thespartanatheist.wordpress.com/2021/04/30/the-problem-of-paul/
That third point is important, because the letters explicitly present themselves internally as having been written in the 50s A.D.
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/7643
70CE, so Paul predates the Jesus narrative by a couple of decades, it was written after Paul died. #18 lukethethird,
"4-7 years
The narrative of the Book of Acts suggests Paul's conversion occurred 4-7 years after the crucifixion of Jesus.": Conversion of Paul the Apostle - Wikipedia
30 Crucifixion of Christ
31(?) A Pharisee (Phil 3:5)
c. 32 Present at Stephen's stoning (Acts 7:58; 8:1)
c.33-34 Persecutor of the church (Acts 8:1-3; Phil 3:6)
34 Conversion on the Road to Damascus (Acts 9:1-9)
(Adopted from the "Blue Letter Bible", upto Paul's "conversion"
Apostle Paul's Timeline - Study Resources
his Epistles appeared before the four Gospels - anonymous narrations #48 paarsurrey,
By then Hellenist-Paul's associates and Hellenist-Pauline Church got well established and when the four Gospels-narrations appeared they doctored them as per the Hellenist Pauline creeds #48
Jesus said that in the same way Jonah was three days and three nights in the fish, he would be three days and three nights in the tomb. No body claims that Jonah was only in the fish for a day and a half so why claim Jesus was only in the tomb for a day and a half? If Jesus was not in the tomb for three full days and three full nights then he was a liar and not someone we should worship. Do you believe Jesus was a liar? Yes? Right?
The anonymous Gospel narratives:
- (later named Matthew, Mark, Luke and John most certainly to deceive the simple minded followers of Yeshua),
- we are told were illiterate persons
- so they could not pen down the events of Cross as these happened, and none of them was eye-witness of the events most certainly
- their earliest narrative (fictious name "Mark") was written down in 70 AD
- and rest three even much later, in the Greek language
- and are said to be the original Gospels while these are not;
- how could the illiterate narrators of Hebrew/Aramaic do the translation job to Greek which in itself is an experts' job, please? Right?
As a thief would leave clues of the theft, so even if doctored, these gospels have clues that they have been doctored, one gets to know, please. Right?
Regards
________________
Jesus dies around AD 33
But despite this impossible timeline, many churches decided that Paul must have converted in CE 33 (36 A.D. #3, KenS timline
https://lightofword.org/images/stories/teachings/Acts/timeline4.pdf )
Paul then has a vision on the road to Damascus somewhere between 33 and 37 CE
Mark being the original (or the oldest we have), and the rest are just copies of Mark with embellishments. The first four books of the new testament are actually Mark with added stuff, Mark, Mark with added stuff, and Mark with a lot of added stuff. They were created toward the end of the first century to retro-fit prophesy, in order to benefit the Romans.
Paul never met Jesus. He specifically said so, and he also never talked to anyone that gave him information about Jesus
https://thespartanatheist.wordpress.com/2021/04/30/the-problem-of-paul/
That third point is important, because the letters explicitly present themselves internally as having been written in the 50s A.D.
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/7643
70CE, so Paul predates the Jesus narrative by a couple of decades, it was written after Paul died. #18 lukethethird,
"4-7 years
The narrative of the Book of Acts suggests Paul's conversion occurred 4-7 years after the crucifixion of Jesus.": Conversion of Paul the Apostle - Wikipedia
30 Crucifixion of Christ
31(?) A Pharisee (Phil 3:5)
c. 32 Present at Stephen's stoning (Acts 7:58; 8:1)
c.33-34 Persecutor of the church (Acts 8:1-3; Phil 3:6)
34 Conversion on the Road to Damascus (Acts 9:1-9)
(Adopted from the "Blue Letter Bible", upto Paul's "conversion"
Apostle Paul's Timeline - Study Resources
his Epistles appeared before the four Gospels - anonymous narrations #48 paarsurrey,
By then Hellenist-Paul's associates and Hellenist-Pauline Church got well established and when the four Gospels-narrations appeared they doctored them as per the Hellenist Pauline creeds #48
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Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
The Gospels indicate(Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:31) that the day Jesus was put in the tomb was the Preparation Day before the Sabbath. Since Sabbath begins at sunset on Friday, it would be safe to say he was crucified on a Friday.
Josephus uses the idea of preparation day for Shabbat in Antiquities 16:6:2
"It seemed good to me and my counsellours, according to the sentence and oath of the people of Rome, that the Jews have liberty to make use of their own customs, according to the law of their fathers, as they made use of them under Hyrcanus the High Priest of Almighty God; and that their sacred money be not touched, but be sent to Jerusalem; and that it be committed to the care of the receivers at Jerusalem; and that they be not obliged to go before any judge on the Sabbath-day, nor on the day of the preparation to it, after the ninth hour:"
Josephus uses the idea of preparation day for Shabbat in Antiquities 16:6:2
"It seemed good to me and my counsellours, according to the sentence and oath of the people of Rome, that the Jews have liberty to make use of their own customs, according to the law of their fathers, as they made use of them under Hyrcanus the High Priest of Almighty God; and that their sacred money be not touched, but be sent to Jerusalem; and that it be committed to the care of the receivers at Jerusalem; and that they be not obliged to go before any judge on the Sabbath-day, nor on the day of the preparation to it, after the ninth hour:"
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
The Gospel of John says that the day after Jesus' crucifixion was a High Sabbath. This has been interpreted by many Christian scholars as referring to the first day of Unleavened Bread, that is Nissan 15. I can find NO contemporary or near-contemporary Jewish sources that use that term.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
The first day of unleavened bread is treated like a sabbath. No work, no traveling. It can occur on any day of the week. Jesus himself said there are 12 hours of light in a day and 12 hours of darkness in a night. And the Bible says Jonah was in the fish for 3 days and 3 nights. No one ever questions this or tries to say Jonah was only in the fish for parts of 3 days and nights.
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
I am well aware of all this. Josephus calls Friday, before sundown Preparation Day for the Sabbath.
Unleavened Bread is indeed a sabbath, but no Jewish source calls 14 Nisan a Preparation Day.
And that is to whom this topic is directed - those who think the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week. And who think that the "heart of the earth" refers to the tomb and tries to explain the lack of a third night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
" Jonah was three days and three nights in the fish, he (Jesus) would be three days and three nights in the tomb. "
Isn't our friend @lostwanderingsoul actually accusing Jesus as liar when Jesus did not live for " three days and three nights in the tomb ", please?
Time was not the essence of the Sign of Jonah, " not dying" was the essence of it, as Jonah entered the fish "alive", remained "alive" in the fish, came out of the fish " alive" so must Jesus be all along alive in every stage under the Earth or the tomb, please. Right?
Isn't it the time one should understand that Jesus did not and could not die on the Cross, not even for a moment, only then Jesus could and did fulfil the Sign of Jonah, please? Right?
Hope one understand now, please? Right?
Regards
Neither was 'not dying'. It is a didactic story with an important theological message.
It is a parable of mercy, showing that God's threatened punishments are but the expression of a merciful will which moves all men to repent and seek forgiveness. The universality of the story contrasts sharply with the particularistic spirit of many in the postexilic community. The book has also prepared the way for the gospel with its message of redemption for all, both Jew and Gentile.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
But if Unleavened Bread is treated as a sabbath wouldn't it make sense that the day before it would be treated as a day of preparation? It was the day the lambs were killed for the Passover celebration wasn't it?
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Do you believe Jonah was alive in the fish for 72 hours? Three full days and nights. Or is the Bible wrong?
rosends
Well-Known Member
Not exactly. The sacrifice was in the afternoon before the evenng feast because the holiday begins at night. The day before might be a day during which people prepare but people prepare before every holiday. We build the huts (sukkot) before that holiday. We perform particular rituals during the day before Yom Kippur begins. There is no formal or technial label for any day as a "day of preparation." In Judaism, we start preparing usually 30 days before a holiday. The sacrifice for Passover has to be set aside and guarded for (IIRC) 3 days before the holiday.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Thank you. So do you think the term "three days and three nights" could have meant only parts of three days and three nights. I mean, seriously, could a Jewish person 2000 years ago have used that way to express a period of time that was not really three full days and nights? For example the story of Jonah says he was in the fish for three days and nights. I have never heard anyone claim that maybe it was less than three full days and nights. Is it possible Jonah was only in the fish a day and a half? Was that a way Jewish people counted days and nights 2000 years ago? I really appreciate any light you can shed on this subject.
rosends
Well-Known Member
There is an idea in Jewish law that part of a day is (for certain ritual contexts) considered a full day but your question is about the specificity of language. The word day can mean a variety of times, from a 24 hour period to daylight to any part of a day. If the text specifies 3 days and 3 nights it would mean at least 48 hours plus a minute in the legal sense, but could easily mean 3 daylight periods and one full night and two partial -- if Jonah gets swallowed on Tuesday early morning (1AM) then the remainder of Tuesday 1AM-5AM is one night, then Tuesday daylight (now 1 [partial] night, 1 day), then Tuesday night and overnight to Wednesday. Then all Wed day light (2 days, 1 night 1 partial night) then Thursday daylight and into Thursday evening (3 daylights, 2 partial nights, 1 full night). It could mean more than that also.
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lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
I truly thank you. I have never had it explained in that detail before.