Five Solas
Active Member
You are a wolf in sheep's clothes.
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When did God tell the Israelites that He was three persons?
- Thread starter Soapy
- Start date
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Why do you say that?
Five Solas
Active Member
Oh, my word...
Five Solas
Active Member
Because you deny this:
We = all Christians, believe in one God who is both three and one (triune); the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one in essence and undivided. All three persons are consubstantial with each other, that is, they are of one essence and co-eternal. There never was a time when any of the persons of the Trinity did not exist. God is beyond and before time and yet acts within time, moving and speaking within history.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
It is God: YHWH that says: “Draw near… from the beginning I have not spoken in secret…”
God spoke these words several times in the Old Testament:
- “I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’” (Isaiah 46:10)
- “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.” (Acts 10:37-38)
- “As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.” (John 17:18)
The sending into the ‘World’ just means ‘facing adversity; unrighteousness; sin and temptation’.
After Jesus conquered these things he announced:
- “For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.… I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.… I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world… My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.“ (John 17: 8…16)
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
It is what YOU believe.
What is ESSENCE? So far over years I’ve asked this question and no trinitarian has ever given an answer…
Can you break the duck??
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Jesus gave the apostles the word God gave him to give to them - and they have accepted it. Anything that is incomprehensible does not come from God in that regard!
When I ask a trinitarian a question about trinity they inevitably cannot answer with intelligent answers. It’s quite plain and obvious why that is. You must have squirmed at your trinitarian protagonists even in this thread at their poor responses (oh no! You don’t need to admit it to me!)
Jesus rebuking the Jews in saying: ‘[I did not call myself God:] I only said that God is my Father’ is not saying that Jesus is not Almighty God??
You are saying that Jesus is ‘the humble suffering servant of God’ … and IS GOD?
So then he is the humble suffering servant of himself?
You say that almighty God is in a lesser position to Almighty God? How can an almighty entity be less than an almighty entity which is itself that self-same entity?
You say Jesus was LESS THAN GOD before becoming a man - ALMIGHTY GOD BECAME A MAN!! Isn’t that the stuff of Paganism??? Are we to believe in Odin and Thor or Zeus and Heracles?
You need to put down those mythology books before you go to bed!
Phil 2 does not say anything about a pre-existence of Jesus. It states that anyone who desires to be like Jesus should follow the example of Jesus - in that, though he was anointed with the spirit of God and could do great things, he nonetheless made himself humble and acted like a servant. The whole of Phil 2 is about setting Jesus as an example for the behaviour of those in Christ-like power: though you have the power to do great things do not throw it in peoples faces. Jesus emphasised this in speaking with Peter: ‘Unless I wash your feet…’ (washing someone’s feet was the most humblest of tasks after greeting someone in your home!) - Also: ‘Those wish to be first in the kingdom of God must set themselves last’… that’s what Phil 2 is about!
Woweee!! You say Jesus is almighty God but almighty God receives everything from his Father … Well, that’s an odd kind of almighty God entity!! The giver is greater than the receiver - but in your scenario the receiver is equal to the giver: what kind of illogical thing is that? What can an equal entity receive from another equal entity and yet while being equal is less than the equal but GREATER entity…
Brian2, an HEIR does not OWN the things his Father HAS IN STORE for him until it is given him. The all power and authority in Heaven and earth WAS ONLY UNTIL all things were set to rights…. Whereupon Jesus HANDS BACK the power and authority to his Father…
If Jesus is ‘Almighty God’ while he has all power and authority, what is Jesus after he hands it back to almighty God?
And you say trinity is not incomprehensible???
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I love this:
Fantastic nonsense…
The bit about the mathematics is the best part:
1 - I and the Father are one (That makes a trinity
2 - When we see God we see [the trinity] : ‘Stephen, looking up into Heaven saw GOD seated on his throne and Jesus STANDING next to him…
3 - The Father is greater than I… Jesus is equal God but lesser to his Father who IS GOD… notice that there is no comparison to a supposed third triune entity!!
You just couldn’t make it up!!! ……. Oh, but they did!!!
natasha levchenko
Member
Why, for thousands of years, did none of God’s prophets teach his people about the Trinity? At the latest, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the “central doctrine” of faith?
The idea of Trinity goes back to ancient times. Long before Christ
there were triads, or trinities, of gods in ancient Babylonia and Assyria .n Mesopotamian area it was believed that The universe was divided into three regions each of which became the domain of a god. Anu’s share was the sky. The earth was given to Enlil. Ea became the ruler of the waters. Together they constituted the triad of the Great Gods.
Regarding the timing of the “great tribulation,” Matthew 24:36 reads, “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. “For how could the Son not know things the Father knows—if they are coequal?
My take is that ,before I start believing in something I find it relevant to answer the question “am I interested in the origin of the teaching?”
If my answer is “no” that might mean I’m ready to be deceived
The idea of Trinity goes back to ancient times. Long before Christ
there were triads, or trinities, of gods in ancient Babylonia and Assyria .n Mesopotamian area it was believed that The universe was divided into three regions each of which became the domain of a god. Anu’s share was the sky. The earth was given to Enlil. Ea became the ruler of the waters. Together they constituted the triad of the Great Gods.
Regarding the timing of the “great tribulation,” Matthew 24:36 reads, “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. “For how could the Son not know things the Father knows—if they are coequal?
My take is that ,before I start believing in something I find it relevant to answer the question “am I interested in the origin of the teaching?”
If my answer is “no” that might mean I’m ready to be deceived
Brian2
Veteran Member
We do have a mind, body and spirit according to the scriptures (Gen 2:26 speaks of our body and spirit for example, and other places speak of our mind, even if the Watch Tower likes to say that "remember man that you are dust" tells us the full story of what a human being is).
So yes we can be seen to be made in the image of God in that way even though the passage is probably referring to other ways we are made in the image of God.
It is interesting that we are not complete without one of those elements and each one communicates with the others and is in charge at times, but the spirit is the highest part of man.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Jesus was a man on earth who left His Godly powers behind to be humble Himself and become man and servant of God, which He was before He became a man. (see Phil 2:6-9)
The fullness of the trinity teaching is one of those things that His disciples could not accept while He was with them. That was left to the Holy Spirit to guide them into all the truth. His disciples were struggling with whom He was, that is clear but it is also clear that in the end they knew the truth, that He was their Lord and God, just as Thomas said.
There are plenty of places in the NT that point back to the OT and where it is speaking about Jesus while using the word YHWH. But in the OT the main thing for the Jews was to know that there is just one God. It was hard enough for them to know that, imagine the confusion that would have been wreaked if they have to try to understand how one God could be 3 in some way. People still have difficulty with that and it seems some refuse to believe it for that reason.
When it comes to the origins of the trinity doctrine you and the Watch Tower sound like those who claim that the gospel story of Jesus was copied from other religions that predate the gospels.
The truth is that having your ears tickled by the Watch Tower and their take on the origins of the trinity teaching has probably helped lead you into believing their deceptions.
cataway
Well-Known Member
not surprised you used that analogy
the spirit of man (and even animal) is not the same as the spirit which is God. sure, the same spelling, yet two different things
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Brian2 says the OT used the named YHWH for Jesus … but yet Jesus says that the name above all names was given to him AFTER he, Jesus, had fulfilled what the Father taught him, and then sent him, to say and do …!:
- “All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.“ (John 17:10-11)
- “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,” (Phil 2:9)
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
You mean that the Jews were right and Jesus tried to lie to them saying ‘I did not call myself God!’
You mean that Jesus doing the works of the Father - the works that God sent him to do - means that Jesus is God - doing what God taught him to do?
And you mean that God was sent to die to save mankind? God, who can turn even stones into children of Abraham?
And you mean that God be and the heir to God? And became ruler over creation that he created for himself through himself?
I’m not understanding this gibberish!
Why did your God to save his image from sin?
Five Solas
Active Member
Do you think Lucifer, or the devil, is another son of God?
There are, in fact, other possibilities.
cataway
Well-Known Member
john 17
11 “I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that " they may be one " just as we are one."
have you wondered why it is that Jesus wanted the 12 to morph in to one person?? oh! that's not what he was asking/saying was it ! ?? what he was saying is that they work together even as God and Jesus work together.
that BTW is not a trinity. it's just two different spirit beings working to accomplish some thing
Five Solas
Active Member
I am familiar with that view as well.
Being specific and being worthwhile is not at all the same thing, while being dismissive of the Gospel of John does not upset me in the least.
The primary meaning of the term (as a noun) is breath or wind. I take the reference as poetic, but it may have had an idiomatic connotation about which we can only guess.
As I've noted elsewhere, Joel S. Burnett's A Reassessment of Biblical Elohim does an excellent job of noting this as an example of an Ancient Near East grammatical form he calls the "concretized abstract plural" where a thing" is conveyed as a plurality of forms and qualities. Other examples in Hebrew would be mayim (water) and panim (face).