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More evidence as to non-humans just being the dumb, instinctive creatures they are

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
https://phys.org/news/2022-10-humans-intelligent-jays-greater-self-control.html

A study has found that Eurasian jays can pass a version of the 'marshmallow test' — and those with the greatest self-control also score the highest on intelligence tests. This is the first evidence of a link between self-control and intelligence in birds. Self-control — the ability to resist temptation in favor of a better but delayed reward — is a vital skill that underpins effective decision-making and future planning. Jays are members of the corvid family, often nicknamed the 'feathered apes' because they rival non-human primates in their cognitive abilities. Corvids hide, or 'cache', their food to save it for later. In other words, they need to delay immediate gratification to plan for future meals. The researchers think this may have driven the evolution of self-control in these birds. Self-control has been previously shown to be linked to intelligence in humans, chimpanzees and — in an earlier study by these researchers — in cuttlefish. The greater the intelligence, the greater the self-control. The new results show that the link between intelligence and self-control exists across distantly related animal groups, suggesting it has evolved independently several times. Of all the corvids, jays in particular are vulnerable to having their caches stolen by other birds. Self-control also enables them to wait for the right moment to hide their food without being seen or heard. The results are published today in the journal Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B. To test the self-control of ten Eurasian jays, Garrulus glandarius, researchers designed an experiment inspired by the 1972 Stanford Marshmallow test — in which children were offered a choice between one marshmallow immediately, or two if they waited for a period of time. Instead of marshmallows, the jays were presented with mealworms, bread and cheese. Mealworms are a common favorite; bread and cheese come second but individuals vary in their preference for one over the other. The birds had to choose between bread or cheese — available immediately, and mealworm that they could see but could only get to after a delay, when a Perspex screen was raised. Could they delay immediate gratification and wait for their favorite food?'

A range of delay times was tested, from five seconds to five and a half minutes, before the mealworm was made available if the bird had resisted the temptation to eat the bread or cheese. All the birds in the experiment managed to wait for the worm, but some could wait much longer than others. Top of the class was 'JayLo', who ignored a piece of cheese and waited five and a half minutes for a mealworm. The worst performers, 'Dolci' and 'Homer', could only wait a maximum of 20 seconds. "It's just mind-boggling that some jays can wait so long for their favorite food. In multiple trials, I sat there watching JayLo ignore a piece of cheese for over five minutes — I was getting bored, but she was just patiently waiting for the worm," said Dr. Alex Schnell at the University of Cambridge's Department of Psychology, first author of the report. The jays looked away from the bread or cheese when it was presented to them, as if to distract themselves from temptation. Similar behavior has been seen in chimpanzees and children. The researchers also presented the jays with five cognitive tasks that are commonly used to measure general intelligence. The birds that performed better in these tasks also managed to wait longer for the mealworm reward. This suggests that self-control is linked with intelligence in jays. "The birds' performance varied across individuals — some did really well in all the tasks and others were mediocre. What was most interesting was that if a bird was good at one of the tasks, it was good at all of them — which suggests that a general intelligence factor underlies their performance," said Schnell. The jays also adjusted their self-control behavior according to the circumstances: in another experiment where the worm was visible but always out of reach, the jays always ate the immediately available bread or cheese. And the length of time they were willing to wait for the worm fell if it was pitted against their second most preferred food as the immediate treat, compared to their third. This flexibility shows that jays only delay gratification when it is warranted. Research by other scientists has found that children taking the Stanford marshmallow test vary greatly in their self-control, and this ability is linked to their general intelligence. Children that can resist temptation for longer also get higher scores in a range of academic tasks.

:D
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
https://phys.org/news/2022-10-humans-intelligent-jays-greater-self-control.html

A study has found that Eurasian jays can pass a version of the 'marshmallow test' — and those with the greatest self-control also score the highest on intelligence tests. This is the first evidence of a link between self-control and intelligence in birds. Self-control — the ability to resist temptation in favor of a better but delayed reward — is a vital skill that underpins effective decision-making and future planning. Jays are members of the corvid family, often nicknamed the 'feathered apes' because they rival non-human primates in their cognitive abilities. Corvids hide, or 'cache', their food to save it for later. In other words, they need to delay immediate gratification to plan for future meals. The researchers think this may have driven the evolution of self-control in these birds. Self-control has been previously shown to be linked to intelligence in humans, chimpanzees and — in an earlier study by these researchers — in cuttlefish. The greater the intelligence, the greater the self-control. The new results show that the link between intelligence and self-control exists across distantly related animal groups, suggesting it has evolved independently several times. Of all the corvids, jays in particular are vulnerable to having their caches stolen by other birds. Self-control also enables them to wait for the right moment to hide their food without being seen or heard. The results are published today in the journal Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B. To test the self-control of ten Eurasian jays, Garrulus glandarius, researchers designed an experiment inspired by the 1972 Stanford Marshmallow test — in which children were offered a choice between one marshmallow immediately, or two if they waited for a period of time. Instead of marshmallows, the jays were presented with mealworms, bread and cheese. Mealworms are a common favorite; bread and cheese come second but individuals vary in their preference for one over the other. The birds had to choose between bread or cheese — available immediately, and mealworm that they could see but could only get to after a delay, when a Perspex screen was raised. Could they delay immediate gratification and wait for their favorite food?'

A range of delay times was tested, from five seconds to five and a half minutes, before the mealworm was made available if the bird had resisted the temptation to eat the bread or cheese. All the birds in the experiment managed to wait for the worm, but some could wait much longer than others. Top of the class was 'JayLo', who ignored a piece of cheese and waited five and a half minutes for a mealworm. The worst performers, 'Dolci' and 'Homer', could only wait a maximum of 20 seconds. "It's just mind-boggling that some jays can wait so long for their favorite food. In multiple trials, I sat there watching JayLo ignore a piece of cheese for over five minutes — I was getting bored, but she was just patiently waiting for the worm," said Dr. Alex Schnell at the University of Cambridge's Department of Psychology, first author of the report. The jays looked away from the bread or cheese when it was presented to them, as if to distract themselves from temptation. Similar behavior has been seen in chimpanzees and children. The researchers also presented the jays with five cognitive tasks that are commonly used to measure general intelligence. The birds that performed better in these tasks also managed to wait longer for the mealworm reward. This suggests that self-control is linked with intelligence in jays. "The birds' performance varied across individuals — some did really well in all the tasks and others were mediocre. What was most interesting was that if a bird was good at one of the tasks, it was good at all of them — which suggests that a general intelligence factor underlies their performance," said Schnell. The jays also adjusted their self-control behavior according to the circumstances: in another experiment where the worm was visible but always out of reach, the jays always ate the immediately available bread or cheese. And the length of time they were willing to wait for the worm fell if it was pitted against their second most preferred food as the immediate treat, compared to their third. This flexibility shows that jays only delay gratification when it is warranted. Research by other scientists has found that children taking the Stanford marshmallow test vary greatly in their self-control, and this ability is linked to their general intelligence. Children that can resist temptation for longer also get higher scores in a range of academic tasks.

:D
Many non-human animals are just as dumb and instinctive as most human animals are.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Well, if these birds ever start believing in supernatural beings and developing a religion, then we will know for sure they are just as dumb as us human animals.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Oh no! I would pick the bread and cheese over the meal worm every time! How dumb does that make me?

More seriously, this result is not surprising. It is obvious to me that non-human animals have intelligence and feelings and I don't need studies to tell me that. What I find interesting is why some people cling to the idea that non-human animals are just driven by instinct and have no intelligence or feelings comparable to ours. A tempting answer is that if they were forced to admit that other animals have feelings too they would have to confront what we do to them on a daily basis. A situation that often puzzles me concerns a hunter with a deer in his sights. I would see it as thinking feeling creature that wants to live as much as I do and let it go. He just pulls the trigger.

Another answer is that we have a kind of overcompensated inferiority complex, where we have to consider ourselves superior to others.

I don't have any firm answers, what do others think?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I wonder how the Western Scrub Jays here would fair? They're notoriously and atrociously aggressive, bully even larger Corvids, and they're cannibals so eat things they can't hide.
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
Cats can resist cat food. They sit there and look at you like "You're going to need to offer something better than this."
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I don't have any firm answers, what do others think?
I see it as ethnocentrism to think other critters we share this planet with don't have emotions and feelings and thought processes and intelligence. The crow and octopus, for example, are both highly intelligent and known problem solvers. Those like elephants even mourn their dead like we do.
And, of course we can't demonstrate we are anything more than automated biological machines doing nothing more than going on instinct and reacting to a world that is largely outside of our control.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Cats can resist cat food. They sit there and look at you like "You're going to need to offer something better than this."

My dog will beg at the table while having food in her dish. I can't decide if it's because she likes our food better, or that she knows the opportunity to get food from the table will go away but the food in her dish won't.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Two anecdotes to support the OP:

- We have a Pacific Parrotlet. He looks a lot like a parrokeet, but parrokeets aren't true parrots, and parrotlets are true parrots. He's amazingly smart, and he's learned that he can't "mob" me when it's meal time. He has to look away before I'll give him his food. I minor form of delayed gratification, but he's tiny, he weighs about an ounce.

- In her not-so-small way, my wife is upending the world of horse training. She and hundreds of her students are demonstrating that you can be hugely successful training a horse if all you use is their innate "play drive". No steel shoes, no bits in the mouth, no whips, no halters or ropes, just "let's play". And her horses (and her students' horses), can do all the fancy moves that top dressage horses do. As long as it's fun for the horse :)
 

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
Self control, and impulse control. This, along with a long-range outlook, with current action influenced by that long-range outlook……these are what distinguish the best of humanity from other animals.

 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Two anecdotes to support the OP:

- We have a Pacific Parrotlet. He looks a lot like a parrokeet, but parrokeets aren't true parrots, and parrotlets are true parrots. He's amazingly smart, and he's learned that he can't "mob" me when it's meal time. He has to look away before I'll give him his food. I minor form of delayed gratification, but he's tiny, he weighs about an ounce.

- In her not-so-small way, my wife is upending the world of horse training. She and hundreds of her students are demonstrating that you can be hugely successful training a horse if all you use is their innate "play drive". No steel shoes, no bits in the mouth, no whips, no halters or ropes, just "let's play". And her horses (and her students' horses), can do all the fancy moves that top dressage horses do. As long as it's fun for the horse :)
"Fun" in case of my exe's horse meant intimidating people (and other animals). He was never trained as a western horse but one of his hobbies was to gallop at people and perform a "stop" right in front of them.
When he and his colleagues were paired with cows they put them in a corner and didn't let them leave.
I wouldn't say that all intelligent animals are jerks but there seems to be a correlation.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
"Fun" in case of my exe's horse meant intimidating people (and other animals). He was never trained as a western horse but one of his hobbies was to gallop at people and perform a "stop" right in front of them.
When he and his colleagues were paired with cows they put them in a corner and didn't let them leave.
I wouldn't say that all intelligent animals are jerks but there seems to be a correlation.

haha!

Well in our case, we offer specific fun activities to the horse, and the horse is free to participate or not. And we've found that once the horse understands that they can say "no, not interested", the more often they accept the offer to play - even though the play might be of a very specific sort. For example, one activity might be: "stay beside me as I jog down this hill, and bend your neck towards me".
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Another piece of relevant info?

Sorry, prey. Black widows have surprisingly good memory

The result, they wrote in the journal Ethology, shows that black widows have better memories than previously known. When their prey is spirited away, the spiders search for it repeatedly in the right place. In some cases, they appear to recall the prey’s size — searching more for the biggest stolen snacks. “They're not just reacting to a particular stimulus using set patterns of behavior,” says Sergi. “They have the capacity to make decisions.” This work serves as a reminder that complex cognitive computations are widespread in the animal kingdom — that internal navigation systems turn up in both big and minuscule brains, including ones that depend on vastly different sensory inputs. “It shows that arthropods are capable of encoding complex memories that people oftentimes associate with vertebrates,” says Andrew Gordus, a behavioral neuroscientist with Johns Hopkins University who was not involved in the work. “Invertebrates are a lot more sophisticated than we give them credit for.” Sergi's results add to mounting evidence that insects and spiders form — and act on — detailed memories, similarly to the way humans do, but with very different machinery. We orient ourselves with “place cells” in the hippocampus, which arthropods lack. Yet, Gordus says, “they have brain regions that evolved to perform the same function.”

Your central nervous system contains a spinal cord and a 3-pound brain. Spiders have two clusters of neurons called ganglia: one above the esophagus, one below it. This brain’s critical input comes from thousands of sensors along the spider’s exoskeleton called slit sensilla. Each looks like a tiny crack, which deforms as vibrations sweep through the spider’s body. (Some evidence suggests that widows can tune into different frequencies by adjusting their posture.) Spiders are so well-wired to sense vibrations that there is even a debate about whether the spiderweb is part of its brain. Compared with humanity’s giant lump of gray matter, this might seem like a radically different computer for processing memories. But to Sergi, what an animal’s brain looks like matters less than the behaviors it produces. For example, birds, as a biological class, have a common brain structure. Yet some excel at cognitive tasks that others don’t. Crows count and use zero. Cockatoos solve logic puzzles. Blue jays hide food in the summer and fall, then remember where to find it in the winter. Even among mammals, another class with similarities in brain structure, some animals are better than others at locating stashed food. Squirrels, of course, are great at it. “They have a standard mammal brain, but they're way better than even humans at remembering where they've stuck things,” says Sergi. “But you wouldn't necessarily pick up on that from just looking at the brain anatomy or watching what they do in an MRI.”
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Even among mammals, another class with similarities in brain structure, some animals are better than others at locating stashed food. Squirrels, of course, are great at it. “They have a standard mammal brain, but they're way better than even humans at remembering where they've stuck things,” says Sergi. “But you wouldn't necessarily pick up on that from just looking at the brain anatomy or watching what they do in an MRI.”
Squirrels have notoriously bad memory. They only recover about 30% of buried nuts. Which is an evolutionary benefit as they are great foresters.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
https://phys.org/news/2022-10-humans-intelligent-jays-greater-self-control.html

A study has found that Eurasian jays can pass a version of the 'marshmallow test' — and those with the greatest self-control also score the highest on intelligence tests. This is the first evidence of a link between self-control and intelligence in birds. Self-control — the ability to resist temptation in favor of a better but delayed reward — is a vital skill that underpins effective decision-making and future planning. Jays are members of the corvid family, often nicknamed the 'feathered apes' because they rival non-human primates in their cognitive abilities. Corvids hide, or 'cache', their food to save it for later. In other words, they need to delay immediate gratification to plan for future meals. The researchers think this may have driven the evolution of self-control in these birds. Self-control has been previously shown to be linked to intelligence in humans, chimpanzees and — in an earlier study by these researchers — in cuttlefish. The greater the intelligence, the greater the self-control. The new results show that the link between intelligence and self-control exists across distantly related animal groups, suggesting it has evolved independently several times. Of all the corvids, jays in particular are vulnerable to having their caches stolen by other birds. Self-control also enables them to wait for the right moment to hide their food without being seen or heard. The results are published today in the journal Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B. To test the self-control of ten Eurasian jays, Garrulus glandarius, researchers designed an experiment inspired by the 1972 Stanford Marshmallow test — in which children were offered a choice between one marshmallow immediately, or two if they waited for a period of time. Instead of marshmallows, the jays were presented with mealworms, bread and cheese. Mealworms are a common favorite; bread and cheese come second but individuals vary in their preference for one over the other. The birds had to choose between bread or cheese — available immediately, and mealworm that they could see but could only get to after a delay, when a Perspex screen was raised. Could they delay immediate gratification and wait for their favorite food?'

A range of delay times was tested, from five seconds to five and a half minutes, before the mealworm was made available if the bird had resisted the temptation to eat the bread or cheese. All the birds in the experiment managed to wait for the worm, but some could wait much longer than others. Top of the class was 'JayLo', who ignored a piece of cheese and waited five and a half minutes for a mealworm. The worst performers, 'Dolci' and 'Homer', could only wait a maximum of 20 seconds. "It's just mind-boggling that some jays can wait so long for their favorite food. In multiple trials, I sat there watching JayLo ignore a piece of cheese for over five minutes — I was getting bored, but she was just patiently waiting for the worm," said Dr. Alex Schnell at the University of Cambridge's Department of Psychology, first author of the report. The jays looked away from the bread or cheese when it was presented to them, as if to distract themselves from temptation. Similar behavior has been seen in chimpanzees and children. The researchers also presented the jays with five cognitive tasks that are commonly used to measure general intelligence. The birds that performed better in these tasks also managed to wait longer for the mealworm reward. This suggests that self-control is linked with intelligence in jays. "The birds' performance varied across individuals — some did really well in all the tasks and others were mediocre. What was most interesting was that if a bird was good at one of the tasks, it was good at all of them — which suggests that a general intelligence factor underlies their performance," said Schnell. The jays also adjusted their self-control behavior according to the circumstances: in another experiment where the worm was visible but always out of reach, the jays always ate the immediately available bread or cheese. And the length of time they were willing to wait for the worm fell if it was pitted against their second most preferred food as the immediate treat, compared to their third. This flexibility shows that jays only delay gratification when it is warranted. Research by other scientists has found that children taking the Stanford marshmallow test vary greatly in their self-control, and this ability is linked to their general intelligence. Children that can resist temptation for longer also get higher scores in a range of academic tasks.

:D
Big deal. They needed a study to understand that animals cache food? I could have saved them the money.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Big deal. They needed a study to understand that animals cache food? I could have saved them the money.
But it wasn't about that - it was more about deferred wants, and where such seems to be allied to intelligence - just as it tends to be with humans. So more like another aspect that so many other creatures share with humans - and which would be expected if we did share the same evolutionary process even if on rather different paths.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
But it wasn't about that - it was more about deferred wants, and where such seems to be allied to intelligence - just as it tends to be with humans. So more like another aspect that so many other creatures share with humans - and which would be expected if we did share the same evolutionary process even if on rather different paths.
Again, it's something a lot of animals do.. and of course we would expect them to since we share a common creator.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Again, it's something a lot of animals do.. and of course we would expect them to since we share a common creator.
I don't think this particular behaviour is so common actually - deferring their immediate desire for food when they know something better is worth waiting for (it varied between individuals in a species after all) - but then I don't know how many different species have been tested for this. And this does seem to be related to intelligence, although there might be other explanations which could account for such behaviour in any particular species due to the way they normally obtain their food.
 
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