Five Solas
Active Member
Have you ever heard how fundamentalists are accused of all literal interpretations? You are a master. Not even context matters to you.
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When did God tell the Israelites that He was three persons?
- Thread starter Soapy
- Start date
Have you ever heard how fundamentalists are accused of all literal interpretations? You are a master. Not even context matters to you.
Five Solas
Active Member
I think we should agree to disagree on this one. I have seen all too often the dangers and destructive power of subjective views ascribed to God inside the church. I contend that the massive confusion we see today and the division in the church is rooted in subjective views ascribed to God.
I hold to the orthodox Reformed view that the canon is closed and that God speaks to us through the Bible and through His creation where one can observe much of God. Those are the means He is using to reveal Himself.
However, preaching is a divine activity when the word of God is proclaimed. It is a huge responsibility. Purely preaching the biblical message is/becomes God’s holy inspired word, delivered through the minister, filled with the power of God's Spirit.
We also believe faithful preaching of God's Word is the first mark of a true church. To be blunt - where is NOT purely preached you have a false church...
When a church stops preaching the unadulterated word of God that denomination dies. England is full of dying churches where the word is not preached any longer because they are scared to offend.
Five Solas
Active Member
Oh, my word?????
Let's use Ehrman as an example - because he is so often thrown into our faces. He contradicts himself by saying this:
‘During his lifetime Jesus himself didn't call himself God and didn't consider himself God and that none of his disciples had any inkling at all that he was God.’
However, even Ehrman acknowledges that in John’s Gospel, there is a mountain of divine claims by Jesus. All the ‘I am’ statements are claims to the divine. Those who do not read Scripture like a parrot will know that they parallel the ‘I am’ statements of Yahweh in the Old Testament. But parrots won't notice because parrots speak without comprehension.
There is more:- Jesus claims perfect identification with God the Father, ‘If you’ve seen me – you’ve seen the Father (John 14v8, 5v16-18). That is a pointer to the Trinity.’
Jesus also claimed divine authority and judgment (John 5v19-22)
The author of John’s Gospel is so sure Jesus is God that he starts with this explosive statement:- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. (John 1:1-3)
A handful of sentences later, John tells us Jesus is the Word. (1:14)
I do not have time to go through all the proofs. Maybe this one as well:-
25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.” John 4:25
All the non-parrots will understand...
We all want to be orthodox. "What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from desires that battle within you?" (James 4:1) The divisions in the church are clearly seen in history books in which thousands of church splits are had because individuals cannot accept that they don't see eye to eye. It could be over a disagreement about what kind of bread to use in communion or whether to use grape juice or wine. Sometimes it is over how to do the baptizing or which words to use in a prayer.
I do not preach at all, yet I have seen three conversions. The kingdom of God is like a seed. Sometimes it finds the right piece of ground, no matter how unorthodox the farmer.
I'm not here to insult you, but you have a 'Salt spring' problem if you think you can curse men made in God's image and bless God with the same tongue.
All I asked you for was a clear example of Jesus saying "I am God", to put against ALL the examples of Jesus saying "I am not God".
If you're correct, how can there not be one?
If you're correct, how can Jesus' ministry not be said to be founded on lies? ─ since that's what all those quotes I gave you above must be.
But there no instances of Jesus saying, "I am God," are there?
Instead there are instances of each of the gospel Jesuses praying to God as a being distinct from himself. Though if you're right, the result is the absurdity I mentioned before, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?", "If it be my will, let this cup pass from me" ─ and so on.
As I said, Jesus didn't become God till after the gospels were written, and the final version was and is the incoherent Trinity doctrine.
All I'm asking you for is a quote from the NT of Jesus saying "I am God". If you don't have such a quote, just say so.
Being divine is not the same thing as being the one God of the Jews. The Jesus of John, like the Jesus of Paul, and unlike the Jesuses of the synoptics, pre-existed in heaven with God. I mentioned that earlier.
As for seeing God:
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
1 John 4:12 No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
which are more clear statements that Jesus is Jesus and God is God and they're different entities.1 John 4:12 No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
You can read about how the Jesus of John is identified with the one God of Judaism in John 17. There you'll find that everyone can be one with God in the same way Jesus is one with God, if they'll just believe in Jesus. That's not a pointer to the Trinity, it's an affirmation of the one God whose envoy Jesus is.
That uses the multifold Greek word 'logos'. In the beginning, you could say, God spoke; and what God said is personified in another being, Jesus. It also says Jesus created the material world, a claim also found in Paul, which identifies Jesus with the gnostic demiurge ('craftsman').
The Messiah is not God. Simple as that.
Gently, my friend. That wins you no marks.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Where in any of that verse is there an indication that Jesus is God and/or that God is in Jesus?
I think you have no idea what the verse is saying. For instance, the term, ‘God’, just means ‘Ruler’. This is a FUTURE event as indicated by ‘WILL BE’ and ‘SHALL BE’ (‘Shall’ is more affirmative than ‘Will’)
‘Will / Shall Be’ suggests ‘IS CURRENTLY NOT’.
Jesus ‘BECOMES’ RULER over CREATION … after he judges the world and is made King over creation AT THE END OF TIME:
- ‘and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve HIS God and Father…’ (Rev 1:5-6)
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Five Solas
Active Member
I say to you that you treat the Bible like a literalist.
My answer is clear. Read it again and learn.
Five Solas
Active Member
Suprise!!!
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I understand what the scriptures says about God: Everything that Jesus says about God…
[Trick question about trinity…] I understand that trinity is a fallacy therefore there is no understanding for it.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Who reads footnotes?
Yes, they SHOULD. But even a pastor in a sermon does not refer to the footnote but just keeps reading: ‘Lord’… (There’s no vocal difference between ‘LORD’ and ‘Lord’, or even ‘Lord’.. He could use an inflection if he remembers!)
The reality though is that the pastor isn’t interested in speaking the truth - ‘it’s just another day at the trinity office’.
I understand, but I also don't think that all trinitarians are so sloppy. I think they are secretive and allow misunderstandings of the trinity to grow wildly. In particular I think the catholics and orthodox have taken a step back from protestants and for a century or two have not tried to interfere. I was watching a video by a Brisbane orthodox priest and caught what I thought was a peak inside what they really think the trinity is. Anyways there is a scripture that says one of the gifts of the spirit is the understanding of mysteries, so there must be some kind of mysteries that not everyone gets immediately. Why wouldn't the trinity be one of them in some form which isn't idolatrous? There was a lot of bad blood back in the reformation, since governments got involved. There were burnings and hands cut off etc., and I think communication broke down. There could be lots of things protestants don't know that have not been told us.
We seem to agree, then, that nowhere in the NT does any version of Jesus claim to be God, and that all five versions deny they're God.
But you make it clear you don't want that to be the case, while having made no case of your own from the NT text; so it appears you try to dismiss the texts I quoted, not by addressing them, but by dismissing me as a 'literalist'.
For my part, I think you're wanting the story in your mind to be backed by the text while knowing (from the texts I've quoted) that it clearly isn't.
If that's wrong, please give me a nice specific example of this 'literalism' you accuse me of.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
It’s an interesting thought if you have a desire to proclaim a sort of trinity. However, it’s not true.
Jesus stated that he had revealed to those the Father had given him all about the Father. If you select all that Jesus says, you will never find a trinity suggestion anywhere in scriptures: Jesus points only to the Father… unless my math lessons were at fault, two does not make three; nor does a thing equal to another make the two things the same one thing. The Son is never EQUAL TO the FATHER: He only HAS EQUAL USE of the POWER OF THE FATHER
Jesus having the POWER OF GOD is like saying that a Son has the keys to the powerful car OWNED by his Father. The car is still the property (hence ‘of’) belonging to the Father but the Son has use of it. The Son, with the Father’s PERMISSION, can make use of the powerful car (Jesus always prays to the Father for permission to use the Spirit of the Father!). Jesus, before departing for Heaven, PRAYS THE FATHER for the father’s spirit to replace him as their source of comfort, protection, power, and love:
- “While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me (John 17:12)
- “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;” (John 14:16)
- “Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.” (John 14:12)
Can you let me know what the suggestion is by chapter and verse concerning the mystery you mentioned?
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BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I hope you are not implying that I'm a child of Satan. I love Jesus and confess Him as Christ, God and Savior.
I find that both testaments testifying of the triunity of God. That is the simple reason why most biblical denominations and Bible-affirming groups disagree with you.
I think the best question I can ask is what you think the gospel is--since biblically speaking, Jesus paid for more than one person's sin by being both divine and our sacrifice.
Thank you.
That is one interpretation. What is your derivation?
What do you think of these?
[Jhn 16:12-13 NIV] 12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
[Mat 15:16 NIV] 16 "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.
[Mar 7:18 NIV] 18 "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them?
[1Co 1:19 NIV] 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
[1Co 8:1 NIV] 1 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that "We all possess knowledge." But knowledge puffs up while love builds up.
[Mat 15:16 NIV] 16 "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.
[Mar 7:18 NIV] 18 "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them?
[1Co 1:19 NIV] 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
[1Co 8:1 NIV] 1 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that "We all possess knowledge." But knowledge puffs up while love builds up.
What if there is knowledge that might destroy you which is being withheld for your sake. Do you want to know it? What in your understanding of this:
[2Co 3:6 NIV] 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
You do not see why pressing this issue has been failing for so long, for centuries not for decades. I think you should trust God to resolve it. That is my opinion, and I think as long as you pursue the glory of resolving it God might resist you. Its not like God couldn't see around it. It is people that get upset over it. Does love cover a multitude of sins or not?Five Solas
Active Member
Ah, so this is your point. You are not really very honest, are you?
Anyway, the dogma of the Trinity is the best way the church could find to 'name' the three persons that God revealed. There are definitely not three gods so that description is accepted by all Christians.
Your logic is very poor. You cannot say because we do not fully understand it, it must be false. All things that we do not fully understand is a fallacy.
Work a bit on your logic and the way you come to conclusions.
Five Solas
Active Member
Nope, we cannot be in agreement. I sincerely hope you are not in a job where one must come to logical conclusions based on certain data. I get the impression you can only work with simple answers like a child. You do not appear to posses the ability to make logical conclusions. So science and maths will not be your thing.
But I'll try anyway...
God's self-revelation was progressive. It started with creation and developed from there. So, over time we knew more and more about God. Christ, as the Messiah, was part of that process. Jesus did not pop onto the scene with the words "Here I am. I am God." Jesus revealed His true identity gradually when the time was right. He also did many things that only God could do. Still, even His closest disciples got it until much later. They initially only got glimpses of His real nature until the truth hit them hard.
One example is this:- His transfiguration on the mountain. It is not something a mere human could ever be capable of. It is probably the major turning point in the Gospel narratives. Jesus gave them a glimpse of His glory. It confirmed the truth of Peter’s confession of faith (Math 16:16 - Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" - Peter was beginning to get it - Probably the first one whose eyes opened to Jesus real nature.
(Matthew 17:1-13)
After six days Jesus took with Him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is My Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased. Listen to Him!”
6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground, terrified. 7 But Jesus came and touched them. He said, “Get up. Don’t be afraid.” 8 When they looked up they saw no one except Jesus.
9 As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Do not tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”
10 The disciples asked Him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?” 11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him whatever they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He was talking to them about John the Baptist.
This is absolutely mind-boggling. Peter had heard Jesus say a week earlier that some who were standing there would not taste death before they saw the Son of Man coming in His kingdom (Matt. 16:28). Now, on the mountain, Peter saw Christ in all His glory.
To Christians today the revelation by God Himself of Jesus who is God confirms revelation hat Jesus is Lord (God), that our faith is not in vain, that we need not live in fear, but that we should live by faith in Him.
Amen...
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
You mean that Jesus paid for THREE person’s sin?
That is silly, of course, but that’s how the trinity works. You even speak of Jesus as TWO personalities and then claim he is God… who has THREE personalities.
Jesus: ‘I and the Father are one!’
Trinity: ‘Jesus is three!’
Jesus: ‘I am going to the Father!’
Trinity: He is returning to be God again after being man on earth!
Trinity: Jesus is both GOD (three persons) and a man - isn’t that FOUR?
Scriptures: Stephen looking in vision saw Heaven open and saw God seated and Jesus standing next to him… TWO…
Trinity: Stephen saw the trinity Godhead (even though no such ‘Godhead’ word is ever alluded to in scriptures!)
It’s funny how Trinitarians never answer to how TWO makes THREE or what a ‘GODHEAD’ is despite them universally using such words and terms as the spear point of their ideology!
Can you explain how two is three?
Or how about the fact that sin and wickedness flee from God yet Jesus lived among sin and wickedness and was even killed by sinfulness and wickedness in man?
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I’m not sure what you are saying. Sounds like you couldn’t find anything to deny so you just wrote a load of squibble.
You even just wrote two recursive nonsenses:
- “…the three persons that God revealed”
- “You cannot say because we do not fully understand it, it must be false. All things that we do not fully understand is a fallacy.”
Well? What is GOD????
The second is that I said that since trinity is a fallacy there’s nothing to understand. Trinity is INCOMPREHENSIBLE by the very words of its own creators. No one can explain the trinity EVER!
And, …but… since Jesus told us that he had revealed the Father (and the scriptures restates that:
- ‘Father, I have revealed yoh to those you gave me…’
- ‘No one knows God - only the son, who has revealed Him’
Now, whose spirit is it that acts in the world? The Father’s… GOD’s…
Jesus ALIGNS his spirit with that of the Father’s and cries out in the most intimate way: ‘ABBA, Father!!’. Therefore he desires that our spirit also aligns with his spirit and also cry out ‘Abba, Father’:
- “Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”” (Galatians 4:6)