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Christians: how sure are you?

Brian2

Veteran Member
Before verse 15, I notice at John 16:14 it says, ' that one will glorify me ', so it is God who glorifies Jesus.
The resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus goes to the Father - John 16:16 B
Jesus appears in front of his God - Hebrews 9:24.
Even heavenly Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to John at Revelation 3:12.


Yes the Son glorifies the Father and the Father glorifies the Son.
Yes the Son, who died as a man and was raised from the dead as a man (see the gospel stories) with a man's body, has a God, as us humans do. His Father is His God and His Father did not become His God until He took the form of a man in the womb of Mary
Psalm 22:10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

Before verse 10, at Hebrews 1:9 it says that God anointed Jesus. Jesus did Not anoint himself.
Thus, because the Son is the one who 'through his God' preformed his great works.
Jesus is the greater Solomon - Hebrews 1:5 B; 2 Samuel 7:14 - Not the Great or Greater God - John 17:3
I think we need to keep in mind that pre-human Jesus is part of the "us" at Genesis 1:26
So, to me it should Not surprise us that Jesus was there when earth's foundation was laid.
Pre-human Jesus acted in God's behalf - Colossians 1:15-16
Jesus gives credit to his God as Creator - Revelation 4:11
Jesus does Not commit all authority to himself but to his God - Matthew 28:18 - as Jesus represents his God.

Yes the Father anointed the Son and the Son who became a man, lived as a man and laid down His godly powers and relied on His Father as us humans are to do.
Yes Solomon and David and Israel and Moses and Joshua the priest etc were used as types of Jesus. King, Prophet, Priest. The Holy One of Israel. The Servant of God, Israel.
And yes there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12) only the name of Jesus. All those who call on the name of YHWH will be saved.
Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who by Myself spread out the earth,
and speaking of Jesus. Heb 1:10 And: “In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Col 1:15 says that ALL THINGS were created in or through Him. The NWT is wrong when it says "all other things" Jesus was not created but God created through Him just as I am typing through my hands. The Son does all things that the Father shows Him and the Father shows Him everything, so the Son can do everything, including creating all things.
Yes the Son has all authority and is almighty and it was given to Him by His Father. He went from being the humble servant man to being almighty. Interestingly Jesus owned all this authority even as a man on earth but He is not one to grab what is His, He humbled Himself before His Father, His equal and glorified the Father that way and the Father glorifies the Son, and it glorifies the Son when we all acknowledge who Jesus is (the one with the name above all names) and bow our knees to Him(see Phil 2 but not in the New World Translation)
The 24 elders in Rev 4:11 praise the one sitting on the throne for creating all things. That is nothing new. Who is sitting on the throne? Certainly Jesus is in the midst of the throne.
Rev:4:8 tells us:
“‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,’
who was, and is, and is to come.”

We already know Jesus is almighty and it is He who is going to come.

Which to me brings us back to Psalms 110.
The two (2) KJV LORD/Lords is about two (2) separate LORD/ Lords.
The Tetragrammaton LORD in ALL Capital letters YHWH.
And the some-lower-case Lord, No Tetragrammaton applied to Lord Jesus.

What does it mean that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God?

Yes I know that JWs say that at the right hand means 2nd in charge, but in order to say that you have to ignore the fact that Jesus is YHWH in the Bible. Nevertheless I suppose JWs are half right in that even though the Son owns all that the Father has (John 16:15) also the Son receives all things from His Father.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
During my brief excursion into belief, I was very sure that there was "something" there, because I felt I interacted with it. Exactly what was it? I didn't know, and was happy to be led (as I felt) little by little into understanding. I joined a Christian church because it seemed logical to interact with people from my own culture, but I never came to believe in things like the divinity of Jesus, the virgin birth, and so on. Luckily, my church was fairly easy going on that stuff.

I've never totally understood why new converts jump straight into acceptance of the whole belief structure (as set out in the creed in Christianity, for example). They probably feel it's expected of them, and in many churches it is, but I truly can't see why a questioning approach is not as good, or even better. If anyone accused me of not being a "true" Christian, I would freely admit that by their standards that was true, but would say that I felt sure that God, whatever it was, would accept me based on my sincerity.

Then it all went away. :confused:
 

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
Before verse 15, I notice at John 16:14 it says, ' that one will glorify me ', so it is God who glorifies Jesus.
The resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus goes to the Father - John 16:16 B
Jesus appears in front of his God - Hebrews 9:24.
Even heavenly Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to John at Revelation 3:12.

Before verse 10, at Hebrews 1:9 it says that God anointed Jesus. Jesus did Not anoint himself.
Thus, because the Son is the one who 'through his God' preformed his great works.
Jesus is the greater Solomon - Hebrews 1:5 B; 2 Samuel 7:14 - Not the Great or Greater God - John 17:3
I think we need to keep in mind that pre-human Jesus is part of the "us" at Genesis 1:26
So, to me it should Not surprise us that Jesus was there when earth's foundation was laid.
Pre-human Jesus acted in God's behalf - Colossians 1:15-16
Jesus gives credit to his God as Creator - Revelation 4:11
Jesus does Not commit all authority to himself but to his God - Matthew 28:18 - as Jesus represents his God.

After his God resurrected dead Jesus - Ephesians 1:20 - then Jesus became Head of the Christian congregation (KJV says ' church') and all authority would be over earth - Ephesians 1:21; Hebrews 1:4 - for salvation is through Jesus.
- Acts of the Apostles 4:12; Philippians 2:11 B - to the glory of God the Father. ( credit given to the Father )
Please notice where Jesus is located according to 1 Peter 3:22 ; Acts of the Apostles 7:55; Hebrews 10:12.
Which to me brings us back to Psalms 110.
The two (2) KJV LORD/Lords is about two (2) separate LORD/ Lords.
The Tetragrammaton LORD in ALL Capital letters YHWH.
And the some-lower-case Lord, No Tetragrammaton applied to Lord Jesus.
How does a question like this end up in a trinitarian vs Arian debate exactly?
On a side note but in answer to this post and other like it, you misinterpreted Jesus being raised...Jesus specifically said, "destroy this temple and I will raise it in 3 days"
He was specifically talking of Himself (any Bible concordance will support that)
To answer the O.P question somewhat...
First one must be willing to take an epistomolical approach to our existence. Unless we genuinely seek those answers, we don't really ever feel the need for a God. That is the trap.
One must really demand logical and consistent answers to the questions of existence, questions humanism view of cosmology cannot answer.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
.....On a side note but in answer to this post and other like it, you misinterpreted Jesus being raised...Jesus specifically said, "destroy this temple and I will raise it in 3 days"
He was specifically talking of Himself (any Bible concordance will support that)...........................

The Jews thought Jesus was speaking of Herod's temple - John 2:19 - and Jesus was using figurative speech referring to the temple of his pre-human spirit body (John 2:18-22; Matthew 16:21; Matthew 27:40; Luke 24:7,21,46 )
Where did I misinterpret _____________
Yes, Jesus was responsible for his resurrection because Jesus died a faithful death.
That does Not mean his resurrection was independent or separate from his God.
Jesus was resurrected by his God in a spirit body made (built) by his Father - Acts of the Apostles 2:24; 1 Peter 3:18.
Remember: at Acts of the Apostles 2:32 that God raised Jesus, just at Galatians 1:1 B informs us Jesus was resurrected by his Father.
Luke wrote at Acts of the Apostles 10:40 that God raised Jesus as does Paul say at Hebrews 13:20; Romans 8:11; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 2:12.
Notice what was said to the Jews at Acts of the Apostles 3:15 that God raised Jesus....
At Acts of the Apostles 5:30 God raised up Jesus. Acts of the Apostles 13:30 God raised Jesus.
On a side note, who should we believe in being also supported by God's Word at Romans 4:24 __________
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
......................What does it mean that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God?
Yes I know that JWs say that at the right hand means 2nd in charge, but in order to say that you have to ignore the fact that Jesus is YHWH in the Bible. Nevertheless I suppose JWs are half right in that even though the Son owns all that the Father has ( John 16:15 ) also the Son receives all things from His Father.
Yes, pre-human heavenly Jesus was created according to Revelation 3:14 B (Proverbs 8:22; Colossians 1:15 B )
John 16:15 does harmonize with John 17:10
When I think of resurrected heavenly Jesus seated at the right hand of God (Hebrews 10:12; Romans 8:34) I think of the two (2) thrones mentioned at Revelation 3:21.
One person does Not sit on two (2) thrones, and I find the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus appeared before the person of his God according to Hebrews 9:24.

Again, the Tetragrammaton YHWH is only used in the KJV LORD ( ALL CAPITAL LETTERS ) at Psalms 110.
The other Lord ( in some smaller letters ) applies to Lord Jesus with No Tetragrammaton YHWH ever applied.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Yes, pre-human heavenly Jesus was created according to Revelation 3:14 B (Proverbs 8:22; Colossians 1:15 B )
John 16:15 does harmonize with John 17:10
When I think of resurrected heavenly Jesus seated at the right hand of God (Hebrews 10:12; Romans 8:34) I think of the two (2) thrones mentioned at Revelation 3:21.
One person does Not sit on two (2) thrones, and I find the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus appeared before the person of his God according to Hebrews 9:24.

Again, the Tetragrammaton YHWH is only used in the KJV LORD ( ALL CAPITAL LETTERS ) at Psalms 110.
The other Lord ( in some smaller letters ) applies to Lord Jesus with No Tetragrammaton YHWH ever applied.

The Watch Tower lie in the translation of Rev 3:14. The word "by" is not in the Greek. The WT does all it can to make it look as if Jesus is a created being. If you are interested in alternative translations for Rev 3:14 go to this site. Revelation 3:14 To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God's creation.

The Watch Tower lies in it's translation of Col 1:15,16.
The word "other" does not appear in the text at all.
The WT lies about the meaning of "firstborn". It means more than "first one born". Psalm 89:27 shows it means more than that. Nobody can be made/appointed to be God's firstborn if the meaning was "first one born".
To say that Col 1:15 means that Jesus is part of creation is not a problem anyway, because Jesus stepped into the creation by becoming a man. He was not created but stepped into the creation and in that way is "of creation".
Yes John 16:15 and John 17:10 harmonize. So?
The Father and the Son are not "one person". Is that the false teaching about the trinity that the Watch Tower teaches.
Yes Jesus is not called YHWH in Psalm 110.
So? Jesus does not have to be called YHWH every time He is mentioned in the Bible.
I have shown you many places where Jesus is called YHWH however.
You don't even bother to try to answer the points I have made.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
There are two (2) separate JKV LORD/Lords mentioned at Psalms 110
Two (2) separate persons.
One person does Not sit at one's own right hand - Revelation 3:21
God had No beginning according to Psalms 90:2
Thus, only God was BEFORE the beginning of anything,
Whereas, pre-human heavenly Jesus (who was sent by God to earth) was "IN" the beginning but Not BEFORE the beginning as his God was.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
There are two (2) separate JKV LORD/Lords mentioned at Psalms 110
Two (2) separate persons.
One person does Not sit at one's own right hand - Revelation 3:21
God had No beginning according to Psalms 90:2
Thus, only God was BEFORE the beginning of anything,
Whereas, pre-human heavenly Jesus (who was sent by God to earth) was "IN" the beginning but Not BEFORE the beginning as his God was.

The Son is not the Father and so it is a misunderstanding of the trinity to say that it wants the Son to be sitting next to Himself or the Father to be sitting next to Himself. That might be a unitarian theology that you are speaking about.

The idea that the pre human Jesus brought all things into existence that have come into existence. (John 1:3) tells us that the pre human Jesus, the Word, had no beginning.
The beginning is the beginning of everything that was brought into existence, and according to science that would be time and space.
IOWs there was no before the beginning.
I know that is hard to comprehend and that JWs seem to accept only things that they can understand and so JWs say that time has always been, but imo the Bible teaches a God and a Jesus who have never changed and that is because they are timeless.
Time cannot have gone into infinity in the past of we would not be at this point in time yet.
But it does not matter so much about that, the main point is that the Bible teaches that through Jesus all things have been brought into existence and if the WatchTower says that this means all "otjher" things, they are lying to you. And anywhere they say the Bible is teaching that the pre human Jesus had a beginning, they are lying.
This includes Prov 8:22
Proverbs 8:22 The LORD created me as His first course, before His works of old.

First of all you have to argue that personified Wisdom who is a woman and who lives with prudence etc is the pre human Jesus then you need to argue that Prov 8:22 is saying that this personified wisdom is created when the other meanings of that word in Proverbs is "possessed" and "got".
Anyway, was there a time when God did not have wisdom?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
According to gospel writer John, pre-human heavenly Jesus had a heavenly beginning - Revelation 3:14 B.
God had No beginning according to Psalms 90:2
Thus, God was ' before ' the beginning of anything. period.
Whereas, pre-human heavenly Jesus was "IN" the beginning but never ' before ' the beginning as his God was.
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him as per Revelation 3:12.
 

Sir Joseph

Member
Reverting back to the OP's first question, I'd suggest that the vast majority of Christians and Catholics accept their faith blindly without an underlying knowledge of the faith's foundations - ie Christian apologetics. Without this foundation, their faith is bound to be less than 100% certain, making them vulnerable to life circumstances, skeptics, media, and culture.

Personally, I believe that a preponderance of evidence (51%), like any civil court, should be sufficient to sway a person towards the Christian faith. However, my study of such evidence has upped my conviction level to beyond a reasonable doubt (90+%). And the more I learn about the Bible's historical accuracy, archaeological support, scientific insight, fulfilled prophesy, manuscript authority, and life changing effects, the closer I come to that 100% certainty number.

I'll say this - only about Christianity: non-believers deny the faith as a will of the heart, not for a lack of solid evidence.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Hey there Christian, question for you.

How sure are you that Jesus Christ exists and is your Lord and Savior? Like, are you 100% sure? My family of Christians would say that they are 100% sure with no doubt in mind that Christ is God. How do they know? I'm not sure.

I'm curious if Christians on this site have the same level of conviction or confidence in their faith. If so, why? If not, why?

I used to think I knew 100% sure that the Bible was truth and Christ was literal God. But here I am.

If the US government has a crucial message for its citizens, such as the doom's day is coming, what should it do? Under the circumstance the informing the citizens individual by individual is not viable, the most efficient way left is to broadcast through the "official" media. The government official will let the mass media know what happened, subsequently the public will get the message from the mass media. This is the way how a truth can convey among humans.

Similarly if God has a crucial message for His Elect, such as how the doom's day will come, what should He do? With a covenant in place which specifies humans need faith to be saved, it's thus not viable for God to keep each individual informed of His existence and His message. The next most efficient way is to broadcast (i.e., preach the good news) through His "official" media (from the Jews till Christians) for His message to convey.

When the US governement choose a mass media, this mass media must convey the message to all the states of American, not just Texas or New York but all the states. Similarly, the gospel (good news of God) shall be preached (i.e., broadcast) to all the nations on earth, not just India or the Middle East, but all the nations on earth!

Which God did the above besides the Christianity God?!
 
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