The Lords Prayer - ‘Thine is the Kingdom…’

Redemptionsong · Oct 23, 2022

Soapy said:
God has granted the power to save to Jesus. But remember that SAVING MANKIND requires mankind to:

PROFESS THEIR SIN TO THE FATHER

Plead for forgiveness FROM THE FATHER

Pledge in honesty God to not sin (otherwise go again up to 70 times seventy times seventy times to clause 1)

The SALVATION that Jesus brought was TWO FOLD:

The first was not a ‘PERSONAL MAN’s SALVATION’. It was the SALVATION from the GREAT SIN that ADAM brought… A Sin that meant DEATH TO ALL MANKIND NO MATTER WHETHER THEY SINNED OR NOT!’.

The second WAS a personal salvation by believing in the one SENT BY THE FATHER (that is, as jesus says many times: ‘Believe in me and that the father sent me’). Believing that God sent Jesus means believing the word of God brought to mankind by Jesus:

“[Father],… This means eternal life, that they should believe in YOU: The Only True God, and in Jesus Christ WHOM YOU SENT!’

We were not each personally responsible for the sin of Adam so we personally could not beg forgiveness from God. Absolution from a sin can come only from the person who was sinned AGAINST. In that case Adam sinned against God and that sin passed down to each and everyone in humanity. But Adam has died and could no longer regress his sin.

Now that Jesus died to remove that great sin, we now live or die by OUR OWN SINS:

“Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life.” (1 Cor 15:22)

“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—… Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come…. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man [Adam], how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!… For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man [Adam], how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!“ (Romans 5: 12…17)

I do not, nor ever have, agreed with anyone that Jesus is God.

Jesus states many times that the father is in him. This means that he does the Will of the Father. And it is true that the Father is in Jesus BY MEANS OF THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER.

Jesus PRAYS to the Father that he would desire that the Father ALSO be in the apostles. According to you, then, Jesus is desiring that the apostles also be GOD! Does that make sense?:

“Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” (John 17:21)

What are you talking about. What had that got to do with the discussion here?

Again, what are you talking about. Are you chatting with someone else and posted in the wrong thread reply?

It's interesting to see how you avoid the issue.

Trinitarians believe that the Father is God, and that the Father's Spirit rested upon Jesus. They also believe that the Father's Spirit is in the Church. [Ephesians 4:6]

Unitarians hold the view that Jesus does not have the fulness of the Father's Spirit, for if he did he would be 'God with us'. The Unitarian position makes Jesus less than perfectly 'good'.

The term 'Son of God' refers to one who follows the Spirit of God [Romans 8:14]. This means that Jesus either walked in perfect faith, or in relative faith. The claim made by trintarians is that Jesus walked in perfect faith. By walking perfectly in faith he did exactly as the Father willed. As such, Jesus becomes the face of God, and allows people to enter into a new covenant through trust in him as the Saviour. The testament to Jesus' risen life is the giving of the Holy Spirit, which seals a person as a member of Christ's body.

Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?

muhammad_isa · Oct 23, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
The claim made by trintarians is that Jesus walked in perfect faith. By walking perfectly in faith he did exactly as the Father willed. As such, Jesus becomes the face of God, and allows people to enter into a new covenant through trust in him as the Saviour..

Jesus can still be "walking in perfect faith" as a man.
..it's just that we can't. None of us are as close to God as Jesus is.

"After being baptized by John the Baptist, Jesus was tempted by the devil after 40 days and nights of fasting in the Judaean Desert. At the time, Satan came to Jesus and tried to tempt him. Jesus having refused each temptation, Satan then departed and Jesus returned to Galilee to begin his ministry."

satan was tempting a man, and not God.
Of course, you will say that Jesus is a man in some ways, and God in others. Whatever..

Jesus worshiped "the Father".
Jesus worshiped God.

Redemptionsong · Oct 23, 2022

muhammad_isa said:
Jesus can still be "walking in perfect faith" as a man.
..it's just that we can't. None of us are as close to God as Jesus is.

"After being baptized by John the Baptist, Jesus was tempted by the devil after 40 days and nights of fasting in the Judaean Desert. At the time, Satan came to Jesus and tried to tempt him. Jesus having refused each temptation, Satan then departed and Jesus returned to Galilee to begin his ministry."

satan was tempting a man, and not God.
Of course, you will say that Jesus is a man in some ways, and God in others. Whatever..

Jesus worshiped "the Father".
Jesus worshiped God.

I disagree. A man cannot walk perfectly in faith if he is a sinner - and all men are sinners!

As fully man and fully God, it is quite acceptable for the soul of Jesus to worship the Spirit of the Father. To worship means to serve, and that is what Jesus did. He served his Father perfectly.

muhammad_isa · Oct 23, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
I disagree..

I thought you would.

Redemptionsong said:
As fully man and fully God, it is quite acceptable for the soul of Jesus to worship the Spirit of the Father..

I don't even know what that means..
If Jesus has a soul, then how can he be "fully God"?

I don't know .. I'm used to people having different ideas to me.
I am aware that I won't be able to understand everything, but one thing that I think I do understand, is the concept of monotheism.

The "Jesus is God" thing is only a distraction away from what really matters .. the concept of sin and righteousness.
Without faith in God and scriptures, we only have man-made philosophies.

Redemptionsong · Oct 23, 2022

muhammad_isa said:
I thought you would.

I don't even know what that means..
If Jesus has a soul, then how can he be "fully God"?

I don't know .. I'm used to people having different ideas to me.
I am aware that I won't be able to understand everything, but one thing that I think I do understand, is the concept of monotheism.

The "Jesus is God" thing is only a distraction away from what really matters .. the concept of sin and righteousness.
Without faith in God and scriptures, we only have man-made philosophies.

I agree with you that the scriptures are about sin and righteousness. But the interesting thing about righteousness is that there are two aspects; one is the human, outward, regard for righteousness by works. This is what I call, 'religion'. The other is God's righteousness. This places the inward, spiritual, truth above any outward appearances. In other words, God knows the heart of man, and is not reliant on judging righteousness by behaviour alone.

Jesus is called the 'righteousness of God' because his Spirit is the same Spirit as the Father's. Ignore the body of Jesus, and what you have left is the soul and spirit. Jesus' soul and spirit were united as one with the Holy Spirit of the Father, thereby making them 'one' in righteousness.

When believers receive the Holy Spirit, they receive the same Spirit that worked in the heart of Jesus. I do not believe there is another Spirit by which we can come to the Father. It is, therefore, essential to receive the Holy Spirit, and to realise that this 'Comforter' is none other than God's righteousness in us! And because it is God's righteousness, we have nothing to boast about; our whole dependence is upon the God who pours his Spirit on us! This is not 'religion', but 'grace'!

muhammad_isa · Oct 23, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
When believers receive the Holy Spirit, they receive the same Spirit that worked in the heart of Jesus. I do not believe there is another Spirit by which we can come to the Father. It is, therefore, essential to receive the Holy Spirit, and to realise that this 'Comforter' is none other than God's righteousness in us! And because it is God's righteousness, we have nothing to boast about; our whole dependence is upon the God who pours his Spirit on us! This is not 'religion', but 'grace'!

I think we have to be careful.
..as the saying goes, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
A person who receives the Holy Spirit will still be attacked by satan.
satan's wish is to destroy us through sin and deception.

How can we distinguish between a dangerous cult, and truth?
It's knowledge as well as grace.

Redemptionsong · Oct 24, 2022

muhammad_isa said:
I think we have to be careful.
..as the saying goes, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
A person who receives the Holy Spirit will still be attacked by satan.
satan's wish is to destroy us through sin and deception.

How can we distinguish between a dangerous cult, and truth?
It's knowledge as well as grace.

Like Jesus, each individual believer must distinguish between the realm of creation, the temporal world, where reason and human knowledge apply, and the realm of God, where faith applies.

When questioned about the paying of taxes to Caesar, Jesus responded, 'Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's'.

I believe that the secret to not being deceived by Satan is to follow both the living word (Holy Spirit of Christ) and the written word of God. Jesus, after receiving the Holy Spirit at his baptism, was tempted by Satan. The responses he gave were all taken from the scriptures, demonstrating the alignment between the Holy Spirit and the scriptures.

We should, therefore, ensure that we listen only to those whose teaching corresponds to both the way of love and the way of God's righteousness. Love without righteousness is a deception. Equally, a teaching based on righteousness, without the Holy Spirit, or love of God, is legalism!

muhammad_isa · Oct 24, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
Love without righteousness is a deception..

Yes. We need both.

Redemptionsong · Oct 24, 2022

muhammad_isa said:
Yes. We need both.

Soapy · Oct 24, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
It's interesting to see how you avoid the issue.

Trinitarians believe that the Father is God, and that the Father's Spirit rested upon Jesus. They also believe that the Father's Spirit is in the Church. [Ephesians 4:6]

Unitarians hold the view that Jesus does not have the fulness of the Father's Spirit, for if he did he would be 'God with us'. The Unitarian position makes Jesus less than perfectly 'good'.

The term 'Son of God' refers to one who follows the Spirit of God [Romans 8:14]. This means that Jesus either walked in perfect faith, or in relative faith. The claim made by trintarians is that Jesus walked in perfect faith. By walking perfectly in faith he did exactly as the Father willed. As such, Jesus becomes the face of God, and allows people to enter into a new covenant through trust in him as the Saviour. The testament to Jesus' risen life is the giving of the Holy Spirit, which seals a person as a member of Christ's body.

Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?

You rightly say this (I don’t know about the Unitarian view nor what Trinitarians say):

“The term 'Son of God' refers to one who follows the Spirit of God [Romans 8:14]. This means that Jesus either walked in perfect faith,…”

I’ve said it many times: ‘Son of God’ means:

‘He who does the works of the Father’

Jesus says it himself:

“What do you say of him who the Father set aside as his very own (anointed) … IF I AM NOT DOING THE WORKS OF GOD THEN DO NOT BELIEVE ME!”

At the end, he says:

“Father, I have finished the works yoh gave me to do…!”

These two verses, at least, validates that his IS the Son of God, just as he said.
But Trinitarians say Jesus IS GOD. So how is he doing his own works and ‘finishing the works’ he gave himself to do.

It’s a nonsense to say that someone who IS GOD ‘follows the spirit of God’!!

It’s a nonsense to say that if Jesus is God then he WALKS IN RELATIVE FAITH IN GOD… or even IN FULL FAITH IN GOD!!

Im sure you know how no sensible you are speaking but are to deep in the fallacy of trinity to admit it.

But here’s the thing: The more you try to defeat the truth, the more you prove that trinity is false!

Basically, you prove against yourself : Satan fighting Satan!

Soapy · Oct 24, 2022

Wildswanderer said:
1 God is three persons

2 Each person is fully God

3 There is one God
In Marks gospel, he makes it clear our God is one yet three. In verses 9 to 11, Mark mentions God the Son, God the Spirit and God the Father. “In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him; 11 and a voice came out of the heavens: ‘You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.’”

Verse 9–God the Son, verse 10–God the Spirit, and verse 11–God the Father. One in essence and three in persons, one God, three persons.

What is ‘Essence’?

Redemptionsong · Oct 24, 2022

Soapy said:
Trinitarians say Jesus IS GOD. It’s a nonsense to say that someone who IS GOD ‘follows the spirit of God’!!

The fulness of the Spirit of God rested upon one man, Jesus. This makes him fully God and fully man.

When Jesus, the Mediator, died on the cross, his corruptible body was transformed into an incorruptible, spiritual, body. And, as the resurrected Lord, Jesus becomes 'our God'. We come to know the Father through the Son.

muhammad_isa · Oct 24, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
We come to know the Father through the Son.

Yes .. through what he taught .. not because he is God.

Redemptionsong · Oct 24, 2022

muhammad_isa said:
Yes .. through what he taught .. not because he is God.

Jesus taught that he had come to die for the sins of mankind. But simply to die is not evidence of having overcome sin, or 'the wages of sin', which is death. The evidence that Jesus overcame sin and death lies in resurrection. So, the resurrection of Jesus is central to the message. By demonstrating that he had been raised to life, he was providing evidence of having overcome death.

Then, to add further to Jesus' testimony, the Holy Spirit, which he promised before his death, is poured out on the exact day he promised, Pentecost. This day is also significant because for Jews it is the day of the giving of the law at Mount Sinai. So, the Holy Spirit is poured out as evidence that God's word is spirit!

In other words, if one follows what he taught, then one would be baptised in the Holy Spirit, and follow all the teachings of Paul!

muhammad_isa · Oct 24, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
Jesus taught that he had come to die for the sins of mankind..!

Where in the Bible did Jesus teach that?

Soapy · Oct 24, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
The fulness of the Spirit of God rested upon one man, Jesus. This makes him fully God and fully man.

When Jesus, the Mediator, died on the cross, his corruptible body was transformed into an incorruptible, spiritual, body. And, as the resurrected Lord, Jesus becomes 'our God'. We come to know the Father through the Son.

Give me a scripture verse where Jesus Christ is called ‘Our God’.

Redemptionsong · Oct 24, 2022

muhammad_isa said:
Where in the Bible did Jesus teach that?

Jesus announced his death a number of times.

In Matthew 16:21, it says, 'From this time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day'.

Mark 9:31. 'For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day'.

Luke 18:31-33. 'Then he took unto him the twleve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.'

So, what do the prophets say about the Son of man? Isaiah 53:6 says, 'All we like sheep are gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all'.

Did Jesus perceive his death as a sacrifice for sin? This is what he said at the Last Supper:
Matthew 26:28. 'For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins'.

Given that this teaching occurs across the Gospels, it must be taken as dogma, or as a central statement of faith.

Redemptionsong · Oct 24, 2022

Soapy said:
Give me a scripture verse where Jesus Christ is called ‘Our God’.

Here is what it says in 1 Corinthians 1:2-4:
'Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;'

Psalm 84:11. '...The LORD will give grace and glory...'
This tells me that grace comes from God.

John 1:17. '..grace and truth came by Jesus Christ...' which is not possible if Jesus was not 'God with us'.

Thomas realises this when he exclaims, 'My Lord, and my God'. [John 20:28]

Psalm 110:1 makes it clear that the Lord (Christ) is the mediator between the God the Father (the LORD) and mankind. This means that the mediator, Christ, must be 'my God', or 'our Lord'.

muhammad_isa · Oct 24, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
Jesus announced his death a number of times..

I'm aware that he foretold that he would be sentenced to death on the cross, and that he would "rise again".

Redemptionsong said:
Did Jesus perceive his death as a sacrifice for sin? This is what he said at the Last Supper:
Matthew 26:28. 'For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins'.

Given that this teaching occurs across the Gospels, it must be taken as dogma, or as a central statement of faith.

Mmm, and that's when we get to the theories of atonement and what have you.
It's all down to interpretation.
I don't agree with original sin and sacrificial atonement.

Soapy · Oct 24, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
Here is what it says in 1 Corinthians 1:2-4:
'Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;'

Psalm 84:11. '...The LORD will give grace and glory...'
This tells me that grace comes from God.

John 1:17. '..grace and truth came by Jesus Christ...' which is not possible if Jesus was not 'God with us'.

Thomas realises this when he exclaims, 'My Lord, and my God'. [John 20:28]

Psalm 110:1 makes it clear that the Lord (Christ) is the mediator between the God the Father (the LORD) and mankind. This means that the mediator, Christ, must be 'my God', or 'our Lord'.

Hmmm… ‘We have but one God: The Father, and One Lord: Jesus Christ’ and Jesus is the mediator between God:The Father, and mankind.

But you are saying that the mediator between GOD and Man is GOD, Himself?

I thought Jesus BECAME the mediator because he is the grace given by God!

((God gave us grace - and the grace given by God is Jesus Christ. Jesus IS the grace that God gave!))

The Lords Prayer - ‘Thine is the Kingdom…’

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Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince

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