Born of Water...?

athanasius said:

Just about every single father of the church(centuries 1-7) that spoke on the meaning of JN 3:3-5 that I have been able to find has said that this born again concept relates to water baptism. After all scripturally it is in the context of water baptism. I believe it was the later protestants that changed the meaning of it due to disagreements with Rome over baptismal regeneration and sacramental efficaciousness of baptism.

But really the early chrisitans taught exactly what the Catholic Church teaches today, namely that the Being born from above or born again is related to real water baptism. Here are some examples:

Justin Martyr
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

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Irenaeus
"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).

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Tertullian
"[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

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It just goes to show how early they started to get things wrong.

Katzpur said:

Then why did Jesus insist on being baptized by John the Baptist? If he'd already been born of water (when he was born in Bethlehem to Mary), what was the point of His being baptized by John?

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To fulfill all righteousness I believe is what Matthew says as to the point of Him being baptized.

Katzpur said:

I'm saying that Jesus was "born of water" when he was baptized by John. Being "born of the Spirit" is something else entirely. Both are necessary. Why do you think He was so insistent that John baptize Him? He definitely did not have any sins to be cleansed of.

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What exactly are you saying being born of water means?

Mestemia said:

John 3:3-5

In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."​

"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"​

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.​

​

I've heard an argument that that has nothing to do with water baptism, that being born of water is the first birth out of the womb (since the mother's water breaks), and that being born of spirit is the second birth. The argument being: the mention of water is literal birth, and the mention of spirit is the changing of a man's heart.

Which seems to fit given verse six:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.​

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I suppose it could be argued a number of different ways yet Scripture isn't clear on the direct meaning.

sandy whitelinger said:

To fulfill all righteousness I believe is what Matthew says as to the point of Him being baptized.

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After all, Jesus came to fulfill the law, and since John was baptising, there's a good chance that was a part of the law Jesus was fulfilling.

PetShopBoy88 said:

After all, Jesus came to fulfill the law, and since John was baptising, there's a good chance that was a part of the law Jesus was fulfilling.

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The problem is that scripture is not clear on that point.

sandy whitelinger said:

What exactly are you saying being born of water means?

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I'm saying that it means to be baptized by water. To be born of the Spirit is to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Baptism was not invented by Jesus in 30 A.D., it had been around for a very long time. Several places in Leviticus it describes how items that were used in God’s temple were ceremonially washed before they could be used inside. It wasn’t because the items were dirty, but a symbolic action that showed certain items had been set aside for the Lord’s use. Many pagan religions began exercising similar ceremonies in which a new member to their cult would be completely immersed in water or even the blood of an animal. Anyone who refused to undergo such ceremonies was not allowed into the cult, indicating they did not believe. Similar reasoning spread throughout the Jews, if you were refusing to be baptized then it must be because you didn’t believe, and thus, were not saved.

The first thing to understand about baptism is that it is not the forgiveness of sins. If baptism was the forgiveness of sins then Christ would not have needed to be baptized and there would not be so many scriptures that forget to mention baptism in regards to salvation (John 3:15, John 3:16, John 3:18, Acts 15:11, Acts 20:21, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 1:17, Romans 3:22, Romans 3:30, Romans 5:1-2, etc…). The idea that baptism is what saves a person is wrong, and the idea that infants go to hell if they aren’t baptized is ridiculous. Babies can’t even form words, let alone understand the concepts of God, sin, forgiveness, etc…, so there’s no reason to think a baby is responsible for making such decisions. Faith in Christ alone is the only thing required for salvation and the only thing capable of giving salvation. This isn't to say that baptism isn’t important, just that it isn’t the forgiveness of sins. Baptism is the response for someone who has believed and Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection and has realized their sins have already been forgiven, because anyone who realizes this would want to set themselves aside for use by the Lord.

John 3:15 (NLT) so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.

John 3:16 (NLT) “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:18 (NLT) “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.

Acts 15:11 (NLT) We believe that we are all saved the same way, by the undeserved grace of the Lord Jesus.”

Acts 20:21 (NLT) I have had one message for Jews and Greeks alike—the necessity of repenting from sin and turning to God, and of having faith in our Lord Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NLT) 8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Romans 1:17 (NLT) This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.”

Romans 3:22 (NLT) We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

Romans 3:30 (NLT) There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.

Romans 5:1-2 (NLT) 1 Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us. 2 Because of our faith, Christ has brought us into this place of undeserved privilege where we now stand, and we confidently and joyfully look forward to sharing God’s glory.

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Now, if we take a look at John 3:5 we can see that it cannot possibly mean that one must be baptized in order to be saved, if it was then it would be in direct contradiction with those verses I listed above and dozens more. When we take a look at the entire passage, John 3:1-21, no where is baptism even mentioned. To understand the true meaning of the passage you need to make sure we translate the passage into English correctly. The Hebrew word used in John 3:3 and John 3:7 is Strong’s #509: (from ano 507; from above; by analogy, from the first; by implication, anew:--from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.). There is no English word that has all the same different means, so when translating you have to pick one. Several translations use ‘from above’ but the majority seem to use ‘again’, though many have footnotes saying ‘Or born from above’ (including NIV, NLT, and ESV).

With the use of the word again, instead of ‘from above’, it suggests to the reader that Jesus is referring to two births. This is false, ‘water and spirit’ is referring to the same birth, so we can eliminate the idea that Jesus was saying you need to be born from womb, and then be born of the spirit. Plus, I think common sense tells that you would need to exist before you could be saved, so it is very unlikely that he was saying such a thing. From the text it is obvious that Nicodemus thought that Jesus meant he needed to be born again, because he was asking him how he could enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, so Jesus is more specific and says ‘without being born of water and spirit’ instead. How do we know this isn’t literal water? Look in verse 10 when Jesus says “You are a teacher of Israel, but yet you don’t understand these things?” Baptism is not mentioned a single time in the Old Testament, so why would Jesus be expecting Nicodemus to think of baptism? He was most likely expecting for Nicodemus to recall versus such as Joel 2:28-29, Ezekiel 39:29, Isaiah 44:3, and Zechariah 12:10-13:1. The prophecies that describe the Spirit of God being poured out onto his people and cleanse them from sin. The ‘water and spirit’ Jesus is referring to is the cleansing of the soul by the Holy Spirit, not baptism or being born from the womb.

Joel 2:28-29 (NLT) 28 “Then, after doing all those things, I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your old men will dream dreams, and your young men will see visions. 29 In those days I will pour out my Spirit even on servants—men and women alike.

Ezekiel 39:29 (NLT) And I will never again turn my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit upon the people of Israel. I, the Sovereign Lord, have spoken!”

Isaiah 44:3 (NLT) For I will pour out water to quench your thirst and to irrigate your parched fields. And I will pour out my Spirit on your descendants, and my blessing on your children.

Zechariah 12:10-13:1 (NLT) 10 “Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died. 11 The sorrow and mourning in Jerusalem on that day will be like the great mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo. 12 “All Israel will mourn, each clan by itself, and with the husbands separate from their wives. The clan of David will mourn alone, as will the clan of Nathan, 13 the clan of Levi, and the clan of Shimei. 14 Each of the surviving clans from Judah will mourn separately, and with the husbands separate from their wives. 1 “On that day a fountain will be opened for the dynasty of David and for the people of Jerusalem, a fountain to cleanse them from all their sins and impurity.

Jeremiah 2:13 (NLT) “For my people have done two evil things: They have abandoned me— the fountain of living water. And they have dug for themselves cracked cisterns that can hold no water at all!

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This is why people need to read their entire Bibles and stop reading single verses out of context.

Mestemia said:

John 3:3-5

In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."​

"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"​

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.​

​

I've heard an argument that that has nothing to do with water baptism, that being born of water is the first birth out of the womb (since the mother's water breaks), and that being born of spirit is the second birth. The argument being: the mention of water is literal birth, and the mention of spirit is the changing of a man's heart.

Which seems to fit given verse six:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.​

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I think it means one must be baptized... as Katzpur has already pointed out, it makes zero sense to list "birth" as a requirement when everyone completes that one automatically. You might as well make breathing a requirement as well...

When one takes a single scripture out of context, it is easy to construe it a number of ways, however, the bible says a great deal about the need for baptism. Consider the following:

Matt 3:15
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Matt 28:19
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Luke 7:29-30
29 And all the people that heard [him], and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:48
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord...

Acts 22:16
16 ... arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Eph 4:5
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Titus 3:5
5 ...according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

1 Pet 3:21
21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us ...

Comprehend said:

I think it means one must be baptized... as Katzpur has already pointed out, it makes zero sense to list "birth" as a requirement when everyone completes that one automatically. You might as well make breathing a requirement as well...

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Perhaps that is where the confusion lies?

In your interpretation Jesus is listing requirements to be fulfilled, whereas from my perspective (as i agree with the OP) he is making an observation/giving a teaching.

If we look at the text again;

In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."​

"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"​

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.​

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I've highlighted the important bits to me, Jesus says we must be born again. Nicodemus, quite naturally from my POV, becomes confused and immediately assumes the first birth is the physical one we all have.
The problem arises with the last piece i've highlighted, where we are forced to jump to a conclusion;

Nowhere is "born of water" made in reference to a baptism, it is however made directly after Nicodemus's comment about the birth from the womb. So either Jesus is calling physical birth "born of water" since that is what it looks like given the breaking of the amniotic fluid sack, or Jesus is totally ignoring Nicodemus's comment and his level of understanding and makes a cryptic reference to baptism as the first birth .

The problem i see with the latter interpretation is that Jesus mentions only two births, one from water and one of spirit. If we count baptism as the birth from water though, then we have three; 1=Womb, 2=Baptism, 3=Spirit.
Now Jesus never makes reference to being "born-again-and then again", so i'm inclined to conclude that the birth of water is the physical birth everyone goes through, and those who are born-again in spirit gain the kingdom.

Being dunked in water seems much more like an initiation/cleansing ritual than a heavenly requirement, to me anyway.