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democrat or republican

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So are Putin and Zelenskyy. At issue is the relative consequences of benefiting one rather than the other.
The prime motivation of the powerful and rich seems to be maintaining their power, fortune, and the political system that facilitated them. It's an endless see-saw between The People, and the Aristocratic/Owner classes, who see "too much Democracy" as a threat.

As for my personal vote, I favor the Democratic party; the lesser of the two evils.
If we had proportional representation or a ranked choice vote, I might actually be able to vote for my preferred party or candidate, but, alas, the two warring teams have effectively shut out any competing parties.
And how has that worked for the nation?
The fact that they haven't worked in the best interests of the nation is the reason for my condemnation. ;)
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yet you would refuse to vote for the lesser of two evils and thereby benefit the greater of two evils - all presumably to make a point. Do you believe the calculus to be justifiable?

Well, if there were more people voting for the greater of two evils, that wouldn't be my fault. Would you blame a man for voting his conscience?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
If the unintended consequences are unconscionable? Absolutely.

Well, I didn't say that I wouldn't vote for the lesser of two evils, because I sometimes do. For this election, I think I'm going to have to vote for the Democratic candidates. I don't really like who's running, but they're running up against Trump endorsees. I have no desire to see the lunatic fringe take over the asylum.

However, if a bad politician comes to power, then I would put the blame on those who actually voted for that politician, not those who didn't vote for that politician.

I'm reminded of the Arizona gubernatorial election of 1986, when the Democratic vote was essentially split between the Democratic candidate and an Independent who had previously run as the Democratic senatorial candidate in 1980 (lost to Goldwater). Because the Democratic was split, Evan Mecham won with 39.67% of the vote, and his governorship was a complete disaster.

After that, some people had bumper stickers on their cars saying "Don't blame me! I voted for Carolyn!" (referring to the Democratic candidate, Carolyn Warner). That implies that the Independent, Bill Schulz, was to blame, along with those who voted for him, most of whom probably would have voted for Warner. But the Warner voters could have cast their vote for Schulz.

Why blame the independent or third-party when, theoretically, one could just as easily blame all the Democratic voters for not voting for the third party or independent candidate?
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
The Democratic Party is a party controlled by banking and financial élites (called an elitist cabal recently) whose exclusive goal is to create social disorder and social chaos.
First of all, they vilified and undermined the acronym LGBT, which is a juridically relevant acronym that we jurists use to give rights to minorities. Whom people can discriminate in the social, economic and political fields.

The unforgivable sin that the Dems have committed is to have universalized the LGBT universe by adding useless and pointless letters that have nothing to do with minorities.
Saying LGBT is fashionable. Which is deeply offensive and undermining because being a minority is not a choice and is certainly not fashionable.
Because heterosexual people who have sex with other heterosexual people cannot be included in that acronym.
And yet there are heterosexual people who consider themselves LGBT, somehow.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
..., if a bad politician comes to power, then I would put the blame on those who actually voted for that politician, not those who didn't vote for that politician.
That's convenient ... or really, really thoughtless.

Why blame the independent or third-party when, theoretically, one could just as easily blame all the Democratic voters for not voting for the third party or independent candidate?
Theoretically one can make up all manner of justifications. Still, to quote Bismarck:

“Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best”

You are either primarily interested in making a change or in making a statement -- or, perhaps, in making excuses.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
That's convenient ... or really, really thoughtless.

Or, it's logical. Why is it so important for you to find someone to blame anyway? It seems you just like to criticize without any rhyme or reason. At least, if you'd explain yourself or elaborate a bit more, I might be able to discern where you're coming from. Right now, it just seems you're heckling just for the sake of heckling. It doesn't make any sense.

I already said that I'm voting for the lesser of two evils, but now, you're just chiding me because I do it without enough joy or enthusiasm to satisfy you.

Though if you're really interested in blaming who's responsible for tens of millions of Americans suddenly becoming disenchanted with the status quo and voting for a lunatic, then I can tell you that it wasn't me.

Theoretically one can make up all manner of justifications. Still, to quote Bismarck:

“Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best”

You are either primarily interested in making a change or in making a statement -- or, perhaps, in making excuses.

Making excuses for what? What do you think I've done that I need to make an excuse for?

It is true that I've been interested in political change for quite some time now. Ultimately, I recognize that the voters are responsible for the people they elect, but I'm also interested in how public opinion can shift in one direction or another.

How did we get to this place where tens of millions of Americans are somehow enamored by Trump? Did Trump's magic and charisma somehow mesmerize and electrify them? Or was there some other reason or cause for this?

I already know that you don't think very highly of my own theories on this question, so I don't care to hear more of that. But what's your actual view here? To what would you attribute the level of angst and political dissension taking place today?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Or, it's logical. Why is it so important for you to find someone to blame anyway? It seems you just like to criticize without any rhyme or reason. At least, if you'd explain yourself or elaborate a bit more, I might be able to discern where you're coming from. Right now, it just seems you're heckling just for the sake of heckling. It doesn't make any sense.
Democracy in the U.S. -- however tainted -- is facing an existential threat. Anything that facilitates this threat is vile and irresponsible.

I already said that I'm voting for the lesser of two evils, ...
What you said was ...

I would vote Socialist if I could, although I still consider Democrats to be the lesser of two evils, despite any criticism I might have for them.
in 2020 85,623 people voted for Gloria La Riva.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, if there were more people voting for the greater of two evils, that wouldn't be my fault. Would you blame a man for voting his conscience?
I would not -- but her choice might not be significant. The problem is, in our system, a vote for anyone outside the Big Two is a wasted vote. It counts for nothing. In many instances, voting your conscience is a waste.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Democracy in the U.S. -- however tainted -- is facing an existential threat. Anything that facilitates this threat is vile and irresponsible.

The thing is, if you're not willing or able to expound on why there's an existential threat to democracy in the U.S., then what solutions do you offer? It's easy to go around pointing fingers and blaming other people.

What you said was ...

I also said:

Well, I didn't say that I wouldn't vote for the lesser of two evils, because I sometimes do. For this election, I think I'm going to have to vote for the Democratic candidates. I don't really like who's running, but they're running up against Trump endorsees. I have no desire to see the lunatic fringe take over the asylum.
in 2020 85,623 people voted for Gloria La Riva.

That would not have been enough votes to change the outcome.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Democrats
A liberal centrist party with stated aims of taxing the rich and broadly progressive policies, but with little action to that effect, though with a proven record of overall benefiting the economy. They are fairly ineffectual and often milquetoast in their aims, often engage in harmful levels of conflict aversion. However, there are certain progressive elements within the party, allowing for the possibility of being pulled left. Not openly anti-democracy and often seeks to increase political outreach. Vague possibility of reform. Policies are generally fact-based with an emphasis on broadly progressive and pro-freedom reform, but with spotty execution at best.

Republicans
Formerly economic conservatives with generally right-leaning cultural views, but currently a party almost entirely concerned with far-right talking points and engaging in right-wing culture war. Combative and willing to engage in outright conspiracy theorising in order to either win or cast doubt on any loss. Also currently in the grips of a cult of personality based around current leader which is making more reasonable elements of the party a minority. Willing to embrace far-right policies and engagement in order to spread pro-party rhetoric. Many members actively supported an attempted coup, and still make excuses for it. Utilises known fascists to determine policy and outreach. Engages in anti-democracy measures and policies to reduce votes for their political opponents.

So, Democrats are better. Not "good", but definitely better.
 
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