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As far as we can ever know or conceive, we are gods

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Definition of a god: an axiomatic, necessary, immaterial, irreducible consciousness which has no conceivable end.

axiomatic

As "A is A and not Non-A", so too "I exist". It is impossible to argue "I do not exist" even as an exercise, for who would be doing the thinking? The self is an axiomatic consciousness.

necessary

People often ask "can you show a consciousness without a brain?" The question is entirely backwards, putting the cart before the horse. Only a consciousness can recognize a brain, and without one's own consciousness there is no awareness of brains, unconscious brains or otherwise. Consciousness is necessary to know or be aware of anything at all, and we are axiomatically aware ("I exist"). The self/consciousness is necessary.

immaterial

Material things can be seen, touched, tasted, heard, and smelt. They are accessible to others. Their contents are objective. They are not "about" anything. They are deterministic.

Consciousness cannot be seen, touched, tasted, heard, or smelt. It is not accessible to others. Its contents are subjective. Thoughts are about something. Consciousness is autonomous (scientifically proven by self regulation, placebos without deception, cognitive therapy, etc).

Cosnciousness/the self is immaterial.

irreducible

You are absolutely, unquestionably certain of your own consciousness. The very existence of matter itself can be questioned and doubted as proven by philosophical skepticism, brain in a vat, simulation theories, etc. It is unreasonable to reduce the certain to the doubtable, the known to the inferred, the thing we require to know matter at all to matter itself. The self/consciousness is irreducible.

no conceivable end

You can imagine the greatest splendrous or most shocking horrors. You can empathize with illness, picture yourself in war, project yourself into the shoes of a horror character. You can fantasize about your most ultimate beauty, imagine a pristine afterlife even if you don't believe in one. And if not consciously then you can in dreams. Yet you cannot imagine the self not existing, you cannot actually empathize with such a concept when you are doing the empathizing, you cannot have a dream with no dreamer. The self/consciousness cannot conceivably end.

you, the god

You, the I in "I exist", are an axiomatic, necessary, immaterial, irreducible consciousness which has no conceivable end. A god. At least so far as you can ever know.

This is not to say there is no room for disagreements, for alternatives. We cannot technically disprove solipsism, or brain in a vat, or simulation theory, but I sure do not believe it those. The thing is, this idea of "you reduce to matter", or "your soul belongs to god", or anything of the sort takes far more leaps and far more faith than simply recognizing that, for all you will ever be able to prove, you are an axiomatic, necessary, immaterial, irreducible consciousness which has no conceivable end.

Why you'd choose a faith which denies that, no idea.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Definition of a god: an axiomatic, necessary, immaterial, irreducible consciousness which has no conceivable end.

Interesting, but not how I see it.

You requested other definitions. That's not my definition of a god (I'm ignoring polytheist's gods here). Gods are not known to exist, much less be necessary. Plus, they possess more than consciousness. They are volitional and potent, and can create universes. And I know of no reason why a deity couldn't have a shelf life.

necessary

People often ask "can you show a consciousness without a brain?" The question is entirely backwards, putting the cart before the horse. Only a consciousness can recognize a brain, and without one's own consciousness there is no awareness of brains, unconscious brains or otherwise. Consciousness is necessary to know or be aware of anything at all, and we are axiomatically aware ("I exist"). The self/consciousness is necessary.

You are assuming that mind precedes the matter, a point you'd need to establish first. You wrote, "Only a consciousness can recognize a brain," but as far as we know, only somebody with a brain can be conscious. Your argument is circular to me. Also, neither consciousness nor self-consciousness seem necessary, nor even possible in a universe not stable enough to generate first life then mind. It's not difficult to conceive of reality not containing consciousness.

immaterial

Material things can be seen, touched, tasted, heard, and smelt. They are accessible to others. Their contents are objective. They are not "about" anything. They are deterministic. Consciousness cannot be seen, touched, tasted, heard, or smelt. It is not accessible to others. Its contents are subjective. Thoughts are about something. Consciousness is autonomous (scientifically proven by self regulation, placebos without deception, cognitive therapy, etc). Cosnciousness/the self is immaterial.

Consciousness may well be an epiphenomenon of material reality. Force is also immaterial, as is energy. Only matter is literally material. But can all be physical even if not literally matter.

Is wetness immaterial? I don't mean H2O molecules, which are material, but wetness. Wetness is not matter, but it is an epiphenomenon of matter. Calling it immaterial is deceptive if that is to mean divorced from matter.

no conceivable end

The self/consciousness cannot conceivably end.

Really? It's an easy concept for me, right or wrong.

you, the god

You, the I in "I exist", are an axiomatic, necessary, immaterial, irreducible consciousness which has no conceivable end. A god. At least so far as you can ever know.

You've reduced god to self, but by redefining god.

Nevertheless, I agree that the idea of gods is related to the idea of man - a projection of sorts. Human beings are the closest things to gods ever discovered, and it is appropriate to see one in a similar custodial role over his reality.
 
Last edited:

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Perhaps! I'd be curious in their alternatives.
Your definition is for small 'g' god. Without omnipotence, omnipresence, and transcendence (attributes of big 'G' God), it's really not that impressive.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
You are assuming that mind precedes the matter, a point you'd need to establish first. You wrote, "Only a consciousness can recognize a brain," but as far as we know, only somebody with a brain can be conscious. Your argument is circular to me. Also, neither consciousness nor self-consciousness seem necessary, nor even possible in a universe not stable enough to generate first life then mind. It's not difficult to conceive of reality not containing consciousness.

This is wholly backwards. All I've listed is where we can start with certainty. I've already explained why consciousness cannot be reduced to matter.

Is wetness immaterial? I don't mean H2O molecules, which are material, but wetness. Wetness is not matter, but it is an epiphenomenon of matter. Calling it immaterial is deceptive if that is to mean divorced from matter.

Wetness is material.

Material things can be seen, touched, tasted, heard, and smelt. They are accessible to others. Their contents are objective. They are not "about" anything. They are deterministic.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Your definition is for small 'g' god. Without omnipotence, omnipresence, and transcendence (attributes of big 'G' God), it's really not that impressive.

But there's no reason to even believe in a big G god...
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
All I've listed is where we can start with certainty.

Why do you consider that important to this discussion? If you think that makes consciousness not an epiphenomenon of matter, perhaps you should make the argument. Yes, my conscious experience is the most immediate reality to me and thus the most certain one, but it doesn't make that consciousness independent of matter.

Wetness is material. Material things can be seen, touched, tasted, heard, and smelt.

Wetness is not material. It is not composed of matter. But it IS an epiphenomenon of matter in the liquid phase. Unlike matter, wetness has no phase, and contains no mass. It can't be accelerated like matter, it isn't attracted to matter nor does it generate a gravitational field like matter. It's simply NOT matter. But its existence depends on matter, and only manifests in matter. Consciousness may well have that same relationship with the matter comprising a brain.

Light is also not matter, but is a product of matter, specifically, electrons when changing energy levels in their atoms. That's what an epiphenomenon is. Consciousness may well be similar- itself not made of fermions or subject to the exclusion principle but derived from them.

I've already explained why consciousness cannot be reduced to matter.

There was no claim that consciousness was matter. You haven't explained why consciousness cannot be an immaterial epiphenomenon of matter, like gravity and electromagnetic radiation, or how it could exist absent matter. You may be correct, but if so, you cannot know that you are. You also may be incorrect, and would have no way to know that, either.

You're probably aware that there are four proposed relationships of mind and matter - materialism, idealism, neutral monism, and dualism. These refer respectively to matter being the primary reality from which mind derives, mind being the fundamental reality with matter being an epiphenomenon of it, each being derived from a third substance the way space and time are thought to be epiphenomena of something that is both and is their source (spacetime), and the idea that they are not related at all but rather are unique fundamental substances not derivable one from the other or from anything else.

Are you also aware that none of these can be ruled in or out at this time? You seem to be assuming one of them without justification. Personally, I suspect neutral monism to be correct based in the long history of unifications in science (wave and particle, mass and energy, position and momentum, space and time, electricity and magnetism, etc.). But like you and the rest of the world, I can't rule out materialism. Nobody can at this time.
 
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