Help me choose

Comprehend said:

I am not sure about that. I think it depends on the area you teach, I know that many education students can get a job teaching in college while they are finishing up degrees. I had a couple undergrad professors who taught and went to school at the same time.

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It is common, especially in the humanities, for graduate students to teach undergraduate classes and get paid, in order to support themselves during their studies. It's an expected part of the program. That is different from getting a job teaching at the college level when you are not enrolled as a graduate student.

PetShopBoy88 said:

Add to that, I don't think most colleges require their teachers to be teacher certified, whereas to be a K-12 educator you have to know content area and education. But, I might be off on that. It's not something I'm that well versed in.

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Yes, K-12 teachers need to be certified in teaching. The idea is that you don't just need to know the subject that you're teaching but also how to best convey that information to the students. Whereas college teachers do not need certification. The idea being that by the time they get to college, students should already know how to learn on their own. However, since the subject matter being taught is usually much more advanced, teachers at the college level are expected to have advanced degrees in the fields in which they're teaching.

lilithu said:

Yes, K-12 teachers need to be certified in teaching. The idea is that you don't just need to know the subject that you're teaching but also how to best convey that information to the students. Whereas college teachers do not need certification. The idea being that by the time they get to college, students should already know how to learn on their own. However, since the subject matter being taught is usually much more advanced, teachers at the college level are expected to have advanced degrees in the fields in which they're teaching.

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Thanks for that clarification.

PetShopBoy88 said:

Thanks for that clarification.

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*rolls eyes at self* I need to clarify my clarification. I was thinking of public K-12. I'm not sure that teachers at private K-12 schools need to be certified.

lilithu said:

*rolls eyes at self* I need to clarify my clarification. I was thinking of public K-12. I'm not sure that teachers at private K-12 schools need to be certified.

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Haha. That's okay, because I didn't even think of private schools, either.

lilithu said:

It is common, especially in the humanities, for graduate students to teach undergraduate classes and get paid, in order to support themselves during their studies. It's an expected part of the program. That is different from getting a job teaching at the college level when you are not enrolled as a graduate student.

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I know, but I thought if one can get a foot in the door and start teaching sooner, it might be easier to stay on if you do a good job teaching...

I could be a writer, but I'm not sure what I'd be writing...lol. I'm much better with informative writing than imaginative writing though. I guess historical fiction is out of the picture...lol.

Well, at least it seems like there are more options than I had originally thought of. Perhaps I should just jump in and figure out where I'll take it after I've gotten some more education.

Thanks for all the ideas and information. If you have more, keep posting...lol.

Ðanisty;788806 said:

Okay, I plan to go back to school once my husband gets a permanent duty station. I have a couple of ideas, but what I need is some job suggestions on what I can do with these degrees:

History. I absolutely adore it. I never get tired of talking about. Even subjects I already know a great deal about (like Alexander the Great) still get me excited when I start talking about them. I'm thinking possibly specializing in Ancient, Greek, or Russian history. Those are all quite fascinating to me. My problem? I really don't want to be a teacher. I just don't like kids at all. I like teaching to people who are genuinely interested...ya know? So, aside from being a teacher, what can I do with a history degree?

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Teach college. It's a whole defferent world, where the students are there because they want to be there and they choose your course because they want to learn what you have to teach them. Also, you don't need all that psychology background to teach adults, that you do to teach children.

Ðanisty;788806 said:

Theology. I'm of mixed feelings on this one. I love learning about religions. Everyone of them interests me to some degree. However, I'm a Luciferian and I'm afraid that the theology community might discriminate against me. I've always been in positions where I don't have to share my religion with people and although the idea of sharing Luciferianism with people is kind of exciting, it's also kind of worrisome. I'd never be able to simply brush that in the closet to further my career or whatnot. You can't exactly be a theologian without sharing your religious experiences...nobody would take you seriously.

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Well, there's always room for people to teach comparative religions. But I think the whole religion craze is diminishing.

Ðanisty;788806 said:

So what do you think? Perhaps I could even specialize in Biblical history?

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Except that the bible isn't history.

Ðanisty;788806 said:

I don't know....just please give me some ideas because I can't do accounting anymore...I'll stab my eyes out. I want to do something I love and I want to find a way to make money at it without having to deal with whiny, snotty, arrogant kids who are convinced that what you're telling them doesn't matter in the real world.

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Just reading your post shows me that your greatest enthusiasm is for ancient history. So why not go for it? As for theology, history is permeated by theology. And in fact, maybe you could specialize in using theology to help clarify and broaden our understanding of historical events.

Well, there's no way to teach history without touching on theology because theology has affected history so I would get a little of both that way. I love ancient history, especially Greek history, but Egyptian also. I love lots of history though...lol. I'm fascinated by Eastern European history and Japanese history too, but I think I'm very attached to the Fertile Crescent.

Funny thing, until I took world history in 9th grade, I hated history.

Why don't you take history as a hoppy, but study theology for living (if you know what to do with theology)
Or take both as hoppies, and live with something else..

I'm crazy about physics, but I thought I will not make enough money out of it, so I took it a hoppy, and specialized with something else, which is pretty close to it (engineering), meanwhile, I'm still self-studying physics for interest..

I think we need to be clear on what constitutes theology and what constitutes religious studies. There is some overlap but the fields are different. If you study theology, you are studying the religion from within the religion and from the viewpoint of a believer/experiencer. It doesn't mean that you actually have to believe (tho usually one does), but it's from that perspective. If otoh, you are studying a religion from the outside from the viewpoint of an observer, you are not studying theology but religious studies. As soon as things like history and sociology and psychology are introduced as influences on a religion, you are talking about religious studies, not theology. When you do comparisons between religions, it is often but not always religious studies, not theology.

Simplistic example of Christian theology:
God is the Father, the Son, and Holy Ghost. They are creator, redeemer, and sanctifier respectively. The Son is eternally begotten of the Father and shares the same essence of the Father (homoousios), etc...

Simplistic example of Christian religious studies:
The Christian concept of God incorporates the creator God and spirit of God (Shekhinah) from Judaism, and adds the concept of God incarnate in Jesus to form the trinity. Early Christianity was heavily influenced by Hellenistic philosophy, etc...


In terms of job availability, religious studies is a lot more practical than theology.

I'm not trying to talk anyone out of studying theology. (Personally I love it! I love both.) I just wanna make sure we all mean the same thing by the word. I get the impression some people are actually referring to religious studies.

lilithu said:

In other words:

"And you can teach at community colleges with just masters but that's usually not a salaried/secure position. You get paid by the semester, often depending on enrollment."

And might I add that the likelihood of getting a tenure track position at a major university going this route is much smaller than the likelihood of getting it with a Ph.D., which isn't high to begin with.

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Please don't put words in my mouth. It's not appreciated.

The career track I listed is what is becoming typical for colleges AND universities. Does it help to have a PhD? Yes. Does that mean you'll get around the new trend in professor recruiting? No.

nutshell said:

Please don't put words in my mouth. It's not appreciated.

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Please point out how what I wrote in red is significantly different from what you wrote.

nutshell said:

The career track I listed is what is becoming typical for colleges AND universities. Does it help to have a PhD? Yes. Does that mean you'll get around the new trend in professor recruiting? No.

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Who said anything about "getting around" the "new trend"? As I originally wrote, even with a Ph.D., a job in academics is not guaranteed. I know Ph.D.'s who've spent years teaching at the community college level, with no job security, and they still don't get university positions. All I'm saying is that it's hard enough with a doctorate. A masters is not going to cut it in most cases.


Let's just think about this logically:
Let's say that your typical graduate program in theology admits half a dozen students a year. Let's then say that the attrition rate is 50%, so only 3 people a year actually get their degrees. So on average each college/university with a graduate program in theology is churning out 3 people a year with advanced degrees in theology. Now, how many professors in these same schools are actually retiring each year? ie - how many jobs are actually opening up for these new graduates? I guarantee you it's less than 3. It varies across fields of course. But in general, especially in fields that have been around for a while, there are far more qualified candidates than there are job openings. So if you have a masters and the rival candidate(s) has a doctorate, all else being equal of course they're gonna pick one of the people with the doctorate.

both a degree in history and theology equally show academic ability. the fact that you know what Aquinas ascribes God to be, or what date some medieval guy showed up in France with a sword and shouted "charge", is not what employers are looking for in a degree. Employers are looking for the fact that you can learn their trade and be good at it, they are looking for the skills behind the degree.

both degrees will show this, so which ever takes your fancy would be the one i would go for.

Edit: and Lilithu is right in her observation of the difference between theology and religious studies, i hope this doesn't offend you intelligence, but be sure you know what you're signing up for.

you may get some discrimination for you own beliefs on the subject, but in my experience of being a polytheistic Pagan (which is obviously very different to Luciferianism, but would potentially get the same sort of response) on a religious studies degree, the slants and views i have on things are different to the standard, but the points are of equal validity if justified properly and that tends to be what counts in an academic environment.

EiNsTeiN said:

Why don't you take history as a hoppy, but study theology for living (if you know what to do with theology)
Or take both as hoppies, and live with something else..

I'm crazy about physics, but I thought I will not make enough money out of it, so I took it a hoppy, and specialized with something else, which is pretty close to it (engineering), meanwhile, I'm still self-studying physics for interest..

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Because I have enough hobbies. I have dozens and dozens of hobbies. I want to love whatever I will spend 8+ hours a day doing. Taking what I love as a hobby is one of the reasons I'm not an artist right now (and no...I don't want to get into art as a career at this point). I'm not going to do that again and settle for something mediocre like accounting (no offense to any accountants, btw). As it is, I hate working more than anyone I know. I can barely stand to get out of bed everyday and deal with the office politics and general ********. If I at least loved my job, maybe I could tolerate it and be functioning, self-sufficient adult.

By the way, could we please not have an argument in my thread.

OK, as a former perpetual student I have some expertise on academic qualifications and employment opportunities.

Waitressing: There is a high turnover in most restaurants, so employment is usually easy to find. In the better restaurants you can make pretty good tips and take home food.


Signalman/woman: Road construction/repair crews generally leave one lane open to accomodate traffic and switch traffic direction every five minutes or so. This is all co-ordinated by a man or woman standing in the road all day with a STOP/GO sign and a walkie-talkie.
Not considered a desirable job, anyone applying is a shoe-in. Plusses: As long as you can stay on your feet, nobody much cares if you bring a flask to work...

Fast food: Huge turnover, jobs always available and rapid advancement for anyone who can stay sober, show up for work reliably and has a modicum of common sense.

&al, &al, &al...

A general rule I've come up with: The more interesting the subject, the poorer the job prospects. If you want a well paying, secure future, get a certificate in some useful but uninteresting/tedious/boring/dangerous trade.
For every job as a history professor, researcher, marine biologist, &c, there are fifty masters and PhD level applicants.

Seyorni said:

A general rule I've come up with: The more interesting the subject, the poorer the job prospects. If you want a well paying, secure future, get a certificate in some useful but uninteresting/tedious/boring/dangerous trade.
For every job as a history professor, researcher, marine biologist, &c, there are fifty masters and PhD level applicants.

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lol, while I have been arguing that there are many more qualified applicants than there are positions, I'm not quite as pessimistic as you. At some point, if you really love something, you have to believe that even if there are 50 other applicants with the academic credentials, you have that special something that will get you the job. I know plenty of people who ended up not getting academic positions. I also know plenty of people who did. It's a mixture of education, talent, perseverance, location, timing and luck. Plus academics isn't the only route for a history degree. (I honestly can't think of any other route for a theology degree.)

I agree with Danisty, something that you're gonna be doing 8 hours a day (if not more) for five days a week (if not more), I want it to be something that I love or at least really enjoy.

Good points, Lilithu. My post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek (but only the tip!).

I remember working construction projects installing aluminum siding -- alongside High-school teachers on Summer break and a couple of engineers working as laborers -- who envied the wages I got with my 'skilled craft'.

(Anyone interested in some new siding? -- I can do gutter and downspout installation too.... )

lilithu said:

Please point out how what I wrote in red is significantly different from what you wrote.

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Waste of my time.

lilithu said:

Who said anything about "getting around" the "new trend"?

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I did.

lilithu said:

As I originally wrote, even with a Ph.D., a job in academics is not guaranteed. I know Ph.D.'s who've spent years teaching at the community college level, with no job security, and they still don't get university positions. All I'm saying is that it's hard enough with a doctorate. A masters is not going to cut it in most cases.


Let's just think about this logically:
Let's say that your typical graduate program in theology admits half a dozen students a year. Let's then say that the attrition rate is 50%, so only 3 people a year actually get their degrees. So on average each college/university with a graduate program in theology is churning out 3 people a year with advanced degrees in theology. Now, how many professors in these same schools are actually retiring each year? ie - how many jobs are actually opening up for these new graduates? I guarantee you it's less than 3. It varies across fields of course. But in general, especially in fields that have been around for a while, there are far more qualified candidates than there are job openings. So if you have a masters and the rival candidate(s) has a doctorate, all else being equal of course they're gonna pick one of the people with the doctorate.

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Overall, I agree with you. However, there are plenty of professors with masters.