The Truth About God.

From you:
Unfortunately Harry, this makes you evil in my eyes, if I were to use your standards... but I suppose I am already evil in yours...?

I didn't called you evil,so why are you calling me evil?I don't know you and you don't know me.

Harry

Mr_Spinkles said:

Actually, before I left Christianity all together, I would have found what Harry is saying very appealing. He makes some very good points, and this New Church appears to be less self-contradicting than Catholicism is at least.

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Mr_Spinkles,
Thank you. I am happy you see the light. But there are people who don't want me here.

http://newearth.org/frontier/

In this web site read the part where it explains about "who is Jesus"

Harry

Harry,

I'm sorry, I didn't mean that the way it came out. I was only trying to comment on what you said, about those, not believing in the 'truth' though it be in front of their eyes, as being evil.

Oh and Harry, one other thing,

No one has said that they don't want you here, and I want to make sure you understand that. Some of us were just a little unsure due to the fact that we thought this was a debate forum, and to you it obviously was not

Mr_Spinkles said:

Harry-- You're using a circular argument of assumptions based on assumptions confirmed by assumptions.

Your first assumption is that the Bible was divinely inspired, and all your arguments are built off of that. But when we ask you to back up that assumption, you use quotes from the Bible....but the only way those quotes can back up your assumption is if we have ALREADY assumed those quotes were divinely inspired.

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The Holy Bible is Divinely inspired. The church believes the Word was one way,naturally.There a spiritual sense of the Word. No one is able to understand unless the Lord opens up the Person's mind.

The person's mind is open by the Lord when the person starts to believe that Our Lord Jesus Christ alone is God of heaven and earth, and that He is the Holy Trinity.

Also the person lives according to the Ten Commandnents. Jehovah God became Man so men may think of Him as a Man and apporach Him as a Man.

Redemption would be impossible if Jehovah God had not become Man. God needed a mouth in order to pearch the Gospel. It is easy to understand God when you see Him as Man.

An invisible God is hard to understand,as the reason Moses was took by God that no one can look upon God and live. This means no one can understand Jehovah God in His Infinite state.

No one should approach the Father, because that the same state Moses wanted to see Him in.Man can never understand God in that state. That's why God said to Moses that man would die,which means his understand would become cloudy.

The Soul of Jesus Christ is the Father.
"I am come from God" (John 8:42) - the Body came forth from the Soul.

"The Son can do nothing of Himself, - but what He seeth the Father do" (John 5:19) - the Body can do nothing of Itself, but what it is directed to do by the Soul.

"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matt. 16: 16) - The Messiah, the Body of the Infinite itself, which alone is Life-in-itself.

"This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased" (Matt. 3:17) - the Divine Body in which it pleases Jehovah God to dwell while on earth.

"My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28) - the Soul is greater than the Body, since it directs it.

"No Man cometh unto the Father but by Me" (John 14:6) - Just as we cannot know a man's soul except insofar as his body reveals it.

http://newearth.org/frontier/

Harry

Once again, these are all claims Spiritual Son.

For example, you say God is infinite because "He was before the world was"....but this is yet another claim. It is not supported by anything other than your personal beleif in it to be true.

God is Infinite because He was before the world was, thus before spaces and times arose. In the natural world there are spaces and times.

So why is not written down anywhere as to what happened before god created the universe? If he is infinite, he must have a lot of stories to tell and wisdom to depart. Why does everything written in scriptures only deal with what happened after creation? The scriptures are the word of god, right?

What the heck was god doing before he decided to create the universe?

Time and space were introduced into these worlds for the purpose of distinguishing one thing from another, the great from the small, the many from the few, thus quantity from quantity,and so quality from quality.

… ying and yang, Tom and Jerry, Willie and the Poorboys, yo and yo. What the heck are you talking about?

The Infinite became finite so that it may be understood by men.

I can understand the infinite, thank you very much.

What happened to your god, is he now finite as well?

God is Infinite because He is Being and Existence in Himself, and because all things in the universe have their being and existence from Him. It has been already shown that God is One,that He is the Itself, that He is the primal Esse of all things, and that all things in the universe that have being, existence, and subsistence, are from Him, and consequently that He is infinite.

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Who? What? When? Where? How?

I need cold hard evidence here, Harry. Don't tell me how it is, show me.

An invisible God is hard to understand

That is because the invisible and the non-existent are one and the same.

Stop preaching Harry.

Q... just curious as to how you understand the infinite... cause i know i have yet to hear a darn good explanation of it

Spiritual Son... to say God is finite is a question to me as a believer in God.. can you explain that one?

(Q) said:

God is Infinite because He was before the world was, thus before spaces and times arose. In the natural world there are spaces and times.

So why is not written down anywhere as to what happened before god created the universe? If he is infinite, he must have a lot of stories to tell and wisdom to depart. Why does everything written in scriptures only deal with what happened after creation? The scriptures are the word of god, right?

What the heck was god doing before he decided to create the universe?

Time and space were introduced into these worlds for the purpose of distinguishing one thing from another, the great from the small, the many from the few, thus quantity from quantity,and so quality from quality.[/i]

… ying and yang, Tom and Jerry, Willie and the Poorboys, yo and yo. What the heck are you talking about?

The Infinite became finite so that it may be understood by men.

I can understand the infinite, thank you very much.

What happened to your god, is he now finite as well?

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The Divine fills every space and interval of space in the universe independently of space. Nature has two properties, space and time. A person in the natural world forms his mental concepts and his understanding in accordance with them.

If he remains immersed in these concepts and does not raise his mind above them, he is incapable of ever perceiving anything spiritual or Divine, for he wraps his notions of them in ideas drawn from space and time, and to the extent that he does this, to the same extent the sight of his intellect becomes merely natural.

To think from this sight in reasoning about spiritual and Divine matters is like thinking from the darkness of night about things which appear only in the light of day. That is the origin of naturalism.*
In contrast, one who knows how to raise his mind above concepts drawn from space and time passes from darkness into light, and he discerns matters spiritual and Divine, and finally sees the components in them and effects springing from them. Moreover, from the light in which he is then, he dispels the darkness of his natural sight and banishes its misconceptions from the center to the peripheries.

Every man possessing the intellect has the capacity to think on a level above the aforesaid properties of nature, and also actually does so think, and he then affirms and sees that the Divine, being omnipresent, is not bounded by space.

He is also able as well to affirm and see those points which we have presented above. But if he denies the Divine omnipresence and attributes all phenomena to nature, he is in that case unwilling to be elevated, even though he has the capacity to be.

Everything in the natural world are correspondences to the spiritual world.When man thinks according to correspondences, and lives according to God's Divine Order, he thinks spiritually,above space and time. All creatures in the natural world are correspondenes of man's thoughts and affections.

The sun coming up in the east,and setting in the west is a correspondences.

The sun correspondences to God,because its heat correspondences to love,and its light correspondences to wisdom. Love is of charity,and wisdom is of truth. God's Divine Essence is Divine Love and Divine Wisdom.

In the natural world space in Nature is measurable, and so is time. Time is measured by days, weeks, months, years and centuries.

Days are measured by hours, weeks and months by days, years by the four seasons, and centuries by years. All those are correspondences of changes of states of the church in man.

Harry

Why do you feel anybody has to prove to you anything?
Why are you here?

We have ancient lit. to back up what we say. Besides truth is an individual affair.

anchient lit also talks about the Egyption virsion of creation... and the chinese and the greek... therefore they are equily valid as the bible.

just because its written down doesn't make it true...

fiction is written down as well...

wa:-do

Well at least its a tangible thing. As was Jesus Christ. I'd rather believe in something then fall for anything.

Ceridwen018 said:

God is Infinite because He is Being and Existence in Himself, and because all things in the universe have their being and existence from Him. It has been already shown that God is One,that He is the Itself, that He is the primal Esse of all things, and that all things in the universe that have being, existence, and subsistence, are from Him, and consequently that He is infinite.

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Who? What? When? Where? How?

I need cold hard evidence here, Harry. Don't tell me how it is, show me.

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God is one, in Person and in Essence.

Jehovah God is Substance itself and Form itself and angels and men are substances and forms from Him, and so far as they are in Him and He in them they are images and likenesses of Him.

As God is Esse He is also Substance.For unless Esse is substance it is a figment of reason. For substance has subsistent being. Moreover, one who is a substance is also a form. For unless a substance is a form it is a figment of reason.

Wherefore both substance and form may be predicated of God, but in the sense that He is the only, the very, and the primal Substance and Form. That this Form is the verily Human Form, that is, that God is verily Man, infinite in every respect.

Let it be known that Man cannot be an image of God, after His likeness, unless God is in him and is his life from the inmost. That God is in man and, from the inmost, is his life,which is his love. Love is man's life, that God alone is life (love), and that men and angels are recipients of life (love)from Him.

Moreover, that God is in man and that He makes His abode with him, is known from the Word. For which reason it is customary for preachers to declare that men ought to prepare themselves to receive God, that He may enter into them, and be in their hearts, that they may be His dwelling-place.

The devout man says the same in his prayers, and some speak more openly respecting the Holy Spirit,which they believe to be in them when they are in holy zeal, and from that zeal they think, speak, and preach.

That the Holy Spirit is the Lord, and not a God who is a person by Himself, has been shown in The Doctrine of the New Jerusalem Concerning the Lord.

For the Lord declares:
In that day ye shall know that ye are in Me,and I in you (John 14:20)so also in (15:4,5)(17:23).

Harry

God is Love itself and Wisdom itself, and these two constitute His Divine Essence. In the earliest ages it was seen that love and wisdom are the two essentials to which all the infinite things that are in God and proceed from God have reference.

In succeeding ages, as they withdrew their minds from heaven and immersed them in things worldly and corporeal, gradually became unable to see this, for they gradually ceased to know what love is in its essence, and thus what wisdom is in its essence, not knowing that love abstracted from a form is impossible, and that love operates in a form and through a form.

Since, then, God is the Itself and the Only, and the first substance and form, the essence of which is love and wisdom, and since from Him were made all things that were made, it follows that He created the universe with each thing and all things of it from love by means of wisdom.

Consequently the Divine love, together with the Divine wisdom, is in each and all created subjects. Love, moreover, is not merely the essence that forms all things, it is also that which unites and conjoins them, and thus, when they are formed, holds them in connection.

All this may be illustrated by innumerable things in the world; as by the heat and light from the sun, which are the two essentials and universals by means of which each thing and all things on the earth have their existence and subsistence.

Heat and light are there because they correspond to the Divine love and Divine wisdom; for the heat that goes forth from the sun of the spiritual world is in its essence love, and the light from it is in its essence wisdom.

This, again, may be illustrated by the two essentials and universals, namely, the will and the understanding, by means of which human minds have their existence and subsistence.For these two everyone's mind consists, and they are in, and operate in, each thing and all things of the mind. This is because the will is the receptacle and habitation of love, as the understanding is of wisdom.

For this reason these two correspond to the Divine love and the Divine wisdom in which they originated.

The same truth may be illustrated further by the two essentials and universals by means of which the human body has its existence and subsistence, namely, the heart and lungs, or the contraction and dilatation of the heart and the respiration of the lungs.

It is known that these two are operative in each and all things in the body; and for the reason that the heart corresponds to love, and the lungs to wisdom.

Harry

If you're just copying and pasting, Harry, then you're wasting everyone's time.

If he remains immersed in these concepts and does not raise his mind above them, he is incapable of ever perceiving anything spiritual or Divine

Yeah, I hear this all the time, but no one has ever been able to tell me exactly what it is I’m supposed to perceive. Can you?

Every man possessing the intellect has the capacity to think on a level above the aforesaid properties of nature, and also actually does so think, and he then affirms and sees that the Divine, being omnipresent, is not bounded by space.

Once again, what “level above” are we supposed to be thinking? Can you explain?

But if he denies the Divine omnipresence and attributes all phenomena to nature, he is in that case unwilling to be elevated, even though he has the capacity to be

But there is nothing else to see aside from nature, therefore nothing to deny.

Everything in the natural world are correspondences to the spiritual world.

But the spiritual world has never been shown to exist. Where is it? How doe it connects to the physical world? By what mechanism does it connects?

When man thinks according to correspondences, and lives according to God's Divine Order, he thinks spiritually,above space and time

How does one think “according to correspondences?” Spirituality exists only in the imagination, is that where the divine order exists, as well?

All creatures in the natural world are correspondenes of man's thoughts and affections.

Sorry, this makes no sense. Please explain.

The sun coming up in the east,and setting in the west is a correspondences.

No, it is a result of the spinning of the Earth – did you not learn that in school?

The sun correspondences to God,because its heat correspondences to love,and its light correspondences to wisdom.

So, the hotter it gets, the more love emanates from the sun? Is wisdom only available in the daytime and not the night?

All those are correspondences of changes of states of the church in man.

Funny how all those things existed long before man and his church.

Harry, your ramblings are cute and fanciful and somewhat philosophical but mean absolutely nothing, except perhaps to you. They are so ambiguous that one cannot make out exactly what it is you’re trying to say.

In other words, you sound just like a bible.

You’re here to preach, aren’t you?

Mr_Spinkles said:

true blood said:

What does it matter if the propostion is based on assumptions? What is wrong with using quotes? The poster stated his proposition so why does the oppostition need to assume he must assume the same as the oppostions? The oppostion isn't suppose to agree with the propostion thus the debate takes place lol.

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I completely agree with you, true blood we should not bash other people's beliefs. As part of the debate, I am simply pointing out that
Harry's arguments are based on an assumption. An argument based on an assumption is not a very strong argument. Hence I am debating. 8)

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I am not assuming what I post is true,it is the truth.

Jesus said: "I am come from God" (John 8:42).
"The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what he seeth the Father do". (John 5:19)
"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Matt. 16:16)
At the Lord's baptism a voice from heaven was heard to say: "This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." ("Matt. 3:17)

The Lord also said: "My Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)

"No man cometh unto the Father but by Me." (John 14:6) On the cross Jesus said: "Father, forgive them ..." (Luke 23:34), and "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" (Matt. 27:46)

Also, after the resurrection, the Lord said to the disciples, "Teach all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father,and of the Son,and of the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 28:19) In this last passage, not only does it seem that the Father and the Son are two persons, but also that there is yet a third Divine Person or Being, the Holy Spirit.

If we were to consult only such passages as these, and ignore all the others that seem to conflict with them, we might come to the conclusion that God is in three Persons. This is extremely puzzling to anyone of a reflective turn of mind, because his common sense tells him that there simply cannot be three Divine Persons, or three Divine Beings because this is the same as saying that there can be three Infinities of three Gods. The task of uniting three distinct Divinities into one God is a forlornly hopeless task.

But the way of this frustration is to notice that it is never explicitly stated in so many words that the Father and the Son are two distinct Persons. That is never said. But it was assumed - taken for granted - by the Councils of the Early Christian Church from 325 AD onwards and has been unthinkingly accepted as the orthodox Christian faith itself.

But search as you will, you will never find a passage that says explicitly that the Father and the Son are TWO, or that he who has seen the Son has yet to see the Father. As a matter of fact, you will find the very opposite, as we shall see in a moment. I am not using assumptions,the early church did.

the Father and the Son are one,as soul and body of Jesus Christ, that the Father is in the Son,as the soul is in the body and the Son in the Father,as the soul and body are one person? This the Lord plainly says (in John 10:30, and 14:10, 11).

If you do not believe this you divide God into two.When this is done you are unable to think about God otherwise than naturally, sensually, and even materially.

This has been done in the world since the time of the Council of Nicene in the year 325AD, which introduced the doctrine of three Divine persons from eternity, and thereby turned the church into a theater furnished with painted hangings, wherein the actors were representing new plays.

When you are able to understand these truths,than you would see what it means by sitting at the right hand God,because sitting at the right hand of God does not mean two persons sitting nicely side by side.

To sit at the right hand' does not mean to sit at the right hand, but it means Jehovah God's Divine Omnipotence through the Human Form that He assumed in the world under the name Jesus Christ,and born of the virgin Mary.

By means of this He is in things last as well as in things first.

By means of this He entered and overthrew and subjugated the hells.

By means of this He restored order in the heavens. By means of this He redeemed both men and angels, and will continue to redeem for ever.Amen

Harry

Well at least its a tangible thing. As was Jesus Christ. I'd rather believe in something then fall for anything.

How do you know you haven't already?