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Is it only Christians who are saved?

AlexanderG

Active Member
I hope this question does not offend anyone.

Sometimes it seems like a few Christian people think they are the only people who can get saved and enter heaven. But my question then is.

What with the rest of us? Are we doomed to your Christian hell?

I think that Christians who are kind, compassionate people will interpret the bible to justify their love and acceptance of people who are different from themselves. They will bask in their surety of universal salvation of people who are as loving as they are, and in the knowledge that all good people will be saved, because that is what emotionally appeals to them the most.

I think that Christians who are nasty, small-minded people will interpret the bible to justify their hatred of people who are different from themselves. They will bask in their moral superiority, and in the knowledge that everyone who disagrees with them will be tortured forever, because that is what emotionally appeals to them the most.

What you believe about hell says everything about the kind of person you are, and nothing about a god or an afterlife.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Questions of salvation, sin, redemption, judgement and such are irrelevant and moot if I am correct that Jesus spoke in hyperbole and melodrama because his audience … the people of his time and place … were simple ignorant villagers, farmers, herders. They could not grasp his teachings in deeper philosophical terms. As a Hindu, measuring Jesus’s teachings against the Bhagavad Gita (and I’m sure Shaiva and Shakta scriptures have non-dissimilar concepts to Vaishnavas), his teachings at face value and a literal reading make no sense.

I do not believe in his literal death and resurrection. Rather, it was an allegory for his final step in enlightenment. But people of his time and place, maybe even educated Romans, probably wouldn’t understand the Hindu and Buddhist concepts of samadhi and jivanmukti, basically meaning full self-realization while still in the body, which is what he experienced.

“I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me”. Yes, exactly right … because he knew what it took: the devotion, the good works, the charity, the righteousness, that would bring someone to God. It was his teachings, not he himself that was important. Those people of his time were not going to know God, not going to come to the Father without learning these things. Jesus spoke in terms his contemporaries could understand. Other prophets, messengers, avatars, what have you, have said the same things. The problem is that Christians have taken his words literally, leaving no room for deeper meanings or interpretations. I suggest this book for those with a literal reading of Jesus. What Jesus Meant.

So, this is what I believe it’s all about.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
That is not what Bahaollah said. He said a messenger (manifestation of Allah) haws to be accepted without any question, and one who differs, will face the wrath of Allah. Have you started reading Kitab-i-Aqdas?
One needs to consider context and what the writings say as a whole. Literal interpretation of a scripture is cautioned against, including Baha'i scripture. I notice some critics of the Baha'i Faith take a verses out of context and interpret literally to distort meanings.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
“I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me”. Yes, exactly right … because he knew what it took: the devotion, the good works, the charity, the righteousness, that would bring someone to God. It was his teachings, not he himself that was important. Those people of his time were not going to know God, not going to come to the Father without learning these things. Jesus spoke in terms his contemporaries could understand. Other prophets, messengers, avatars, what have you, have said the same things. The problem is that Christians have taken his words literally, leaving no room for deeper meanings or interpretations...
Exactly. It all has to be understood in context.
The problem is, many people have a fear of change.
In some cases, it might be better to start off with a "blank slate",
and examine each creed in turn, along with relevant scriptures.

..but at the end of the day, we all make our own choice...
..and God does the rest. :)

i.e. anybody who takes a step towards God Almighty, He takes many steps towards them !
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
And more revisionism. God no longer sends conscious souls to a torture pit for eternity. Too mean for modern sensibilities. So, we send ourselves. I generally tell people who claim that that it's good to know, because if that's the case, I'm not going. None ever says that I will have that choice.

All of this revisionism de-tooths the religion.
What is it that you don't understand?
Do you think that the moral righteousness in the Bible somehow affects God? Do you think that He is in need of our obedience?
No, absolutely not !
It is we that are the ones in need.
You ignore it at your own peril !
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
First of all, the OP is not an attack on Christians :)
The idea come to me yester day when i read a few of @Muffled replies in discussion and debate.
Of course there is only a few Christians who believe only Christians can and will be saved.
Yes, I know it wasn't an attack... but the questions are still good :)
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is it that you don't understand?

Nothing related to this discussion. I explained what I see and what it means to me. I see the message of Christianity evolving to adapt to its hemorrhaging clout, members, and dollars as more modern sensibilities evolve and change the environment in which the church must compete. It's analogous to biological evolution being powered by evolving habitats.

Do you think that the moral righteousness in the Bible somehow affects God? Do you think that He is need of our obedience?

I can see what it is you don't understand. Why would you ask that of an atheist?

If I believed Christian theology, I would believe that this god needs praise. If it doesn't come naturally, then yes, it demands obedience or else. Does that quality remind you of anybody else, any other black hole of need seeking perpetual validation? Is this a good quality in your estimation?

It is we that are the ones in need. You ignore it at your own peril !

I have no such need. I have a tolerant, reasonable moral code that I believe outperforms all Abrahamic moral codes in promoting the well-being of humanity and the beasts.

The peril lies with he who is willing to take his morals from those claiming to speak for gods. They can make one do immoral things by humanist standards.
 

CharmingOwl

Member
I believe that early Judaism did not have a hell and the idea came from Dante's Inferno. Looking at this, I am unsure who isn't saved. Going to heaven or hell seems like a binary of being good or bad completely and only having one of two possibilities.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
@Seeker of White Light asked about Christian belief and I answered according to what the Bible says.
I also answered according to Bible:
Boast "my way is the highway" is not okay
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This is just 1 of the many verses I know from the Bible, making this point very clear

AND

To make the Bible consistent (not conflicting) you must practise all advices simultaneously, not the ones you fancy. Not easy, but do-able, considering the

KEY (most fail to understand): IF you find 1 verse saying "Do Not Do this or that.." THEN that 1 verse supersedes all conflicting verses saying "Do this or that.."
(First "do no harm" only then comes "help")
(First "remove fault in my eye", hence "judge others NOT")
@stvdvRF
 
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muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
I can see what it is you don't understand. Why would you ask that of an atheist?
..because of your previous reply..

"God no longer sends conscious souls to a torture pit for eternity. Too mean for modern sensibilities. So, we send ourselves."

Your literal interpretation is that "God sends" as if God is "a god", and you imagine a being actually sending you to torture.
It might as well be .. because the result is the same .. severe torment .. caused by ignoring the morality that you reject.
There are consequences for our behaviour that you cannot perceive.

You have your way in life, and I have mine.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
I hope this question does not offend anyone.

Sometimes it seems like a few Christian people think they are the only people who can get saved and enter heaven. But my question then is.

What with the rest of us? Are we doomed to your Christian hell?
No I think, and I'll clarify as briefly as I can.

As has been pointed out there are verses in the gospels such as the gospel of John in which Jesus says "I am the way, the truth and the life..." Its easy to misunderstand this, to take such verses out of the situation in which they are spoken. We must not do so. They have been translated to English then exported to people who don't know what Judaism is -- to you and I. Therefore we (wrongly) tend to think Jesus is calling himself some kind of tesseract to God, but I correct this error. I help you not to misunderstand Jesus about this. He's saying that his interpretations are the ones for Jews to follow, and these interpretations are things like: The spirit (of wisdom that comes upon the 70 elders) goes where it will....

The result is that Jesus is teaching that his audience (the very Jews who are the discoverers of God) have no control of where the spirit goes. They have to accept people from all kinds of backgrounds, that our job (if we are Jews living under Roman oppression) is not to escape the Romans but to make them family, to sanctify them rather than separate from them. This is a large thing to ask of the Jews who have been greatly wronged by the Romans, but it is what Jesus says they must do. This is the only way. He means they must adopt the Romans, viewing the Romans not as enemies but as orphans. This is the original catholicism which means 'Universal'. He has made Judaism universal.

It (what Jesus says) does not mean everyone who disagrees with Christians goes to hell or that anyone who doesn't grasp or accept Jesus goes to hell. I feel I have explained why I think so. It is Jews (ostensibly the heirs of Jews under Roman oppression) who are being called upon by Jesus to accept Jesus way, to adopt the Romans and the entire world. That is what these passages are about when Jesus calls himself the way.

***************** Here's how awful I think it is, that you are having to even ask.
May Billy Graham's twisted preaching about hell perish in the darkness in which it began, so that he may be forgiven. May Jonathan Edwards preaching about hell be forgot and all those be forgotten who have pressed people with beliefs of God's eternal flames torchoring humans for all eternity. May the Chick Tract people be forgot someday and forgiven and the TV preachers and the Copelands and all of the wretches that peddle such garbage to our ears. Finally I pray for every teacher, public speaker and every profiteer who ever prospered by filling the ears of the poor with this lie about burning and being torchered by God, that they may be forgotten and their words and all of their pride. May they all be forgot and forgiven that we may be free of them. What an awful lie I think it is, useless and without any ability to stop criminals or criminal acts. It does nothing good and is not from scripture but from the imagination and vanity.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Christian theology is evolving to adapt to its increasing rejection by Western society. In the past, one could be as scary as he wanted, teaching young children about eternal torment while threatening the adults. It was the face of Christianity as I experienced it as a Christian in the seventies. There was no mincing with words like we see today. The Left Behind series and the Chick tracts were very much fire and brimstone. Those people would tell you that you were hell-bound if you didn't accept Jesus (become Christian).

But today, much of that has softened. Some of the church remains fundamentalist, but much of it has been moving toward more loving and inclusive interpretations of that same scripture. We've seen it in this thread already - God doesn't send us to hell, we send ourselves, and hell's torture is merely separation from God and heaven. Also, we see many of the faithful simply changing the doctrine from "one way" to more than one way to achieve salvation and attain paradise apparently.



Baha'is more familiar with the faith than you disagree. You started a thread recently where many expressed that, although they don't use the word blindly. Yet, every one of them did just that regarding the Baha'i doctrine in question in that thread. They all basically said the equivalent of God said it so I believe it.



Yes, this is the Christianity I was taught.



And this is how it's done. The words can't be changed, but their meanings and emphasis can be and are as needed. New scriptures are pointed to as the theology evolves.



And more adaptive revisionism. I don't see where this supports your claim. And there is no freedom of religion in Christianity. The Baha'i might accept the Christians, but the Christians don't accept any other religion as legitimate.



And more revisionism. God no longer sends conscious souls to a torture pit for eternity. Too mean for modern sensibilities. So, we send ourselves. I generally tell people who claim that that it's good to know, because if that's the case, I'm not going. None ever says that I will have that choice.

All of this revisionism de-tooths the religion.



Yes, I've seen this from Christians as well, although you're not a Christian. My answer is that I am quite familiar and comfortable with being far from God, and could easily spend an eternal afterlife without one if that were an option. The problem for Christianity is that it offers both the carrot of heaven and the stick of hell, and it turns out that the carrot just isn't very appealing, so softening the stick or putting it down means the horse slows or stops. To survive, Christianity requires access to children, respectablitiy, credibility, and protection from challenges to it, all of which it has lost or is losing. It also apparently requires hell theology be threatening. If it gives that part or all of that up to gain adherents, it probably won't work.



And more revisionism. Again, I don't know if you speak here as a Baha'i or for Christians, but there is nothing forgiving or merciful about Judgment Day. In heaven, there are no juries and no appeals, and the punishment for a reasonable mistake - unbelief in this god - is eternal suffering. That the opposite of just, forgiving, or merciful.

I don't see any of this new kinder-and-gentler saving Christianity from ongoing loss of cultural hegemony in the West. And please note that these are all movements in the direction of humanism, the primary source of the rejection of this kind of doctrine in the West. It's humanist sensibilities at last being promoted culturally through the advent of atheist bestselling authors, atheist celebrities (Tyson, Carlin, Maher), and the Internet that are taking root and pushing the religions toward more kind and inclusive doctrine not because it wants to. It wants to survive, and that is what the younger demographic that it is trying to appeal to is demanding now.

Trust and blind belief are very different. Baha’u’llah has proven Himself Who He is and therefore has won the deep love and trust of Baha’is.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The Bible is given for Christians as a guide

Other Scriptures are given for other beliefs

Imposing Bible on others is not okay

Religion is not a club, it is what a person believes to be true and encompasses a whole worldview, so seeing the whole world and the people in it through the lens of your scriptures is what does and should go on for a believer in a particular religion.
However that does not mean forcing others to live with the same moral values that your scriptures teach imo
 

1213

Well-Known Member
I hope this question does not offend anyone.

Sometimes it seems like a few Christian people think they are the only people who can get saved and enter heaven. But my question then is.

What with the rest of us? Are we doomed to your Christian hell?

I have understood saved means: sins have been forgiven, and so the person would avoid the judgment that comes because of sin. And it is a different matter to that who will have eternal life, which is promised for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

I think the forgiveness is declared for all. But it is not useful, if person doesn't repent and become righteous. As Jesus said, people should not sin anymore.

“Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more.”
John 8:11

I think it is so for all, they get eternal life, if they are righteous. And it may be possible that person who has never heard of Jesus can be counted righteous by these words:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I hope this question does not offend anyone.

Sometimes it seems like a few Christian people think they are the only people who can get saved and enter heaven. But my question then is.

What with the rest of us? Are we doomed to your Christian hell?

Whatever a persons condition before receiving Jesus as Savior matters not but there is no other way to be saved.

I believe anyone may enter Heaven if he knows the way and God permits.

First of all I believe hell is not Christian it is God's. Second that will happen if a person is not saved by the time of the last judgment.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Good non-christians is not going to hell. Why?

Because of this:

"Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. " 1 John 4:7

I believe it is impossible for an unsaved person to love.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Do you know a bible verse that explain where good non Christians will end up?

Mat. 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Mat. 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels
So I go into the flames according to your beliefs?
 
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