The Me Generation

Reyn said:

Why does it bother me to be forced to use certain pronouns for people? It’s totalitarian and I don’t like totalitarianism.

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But you're not being forced to do anything. Calling that totalitarianism is hyperbole. It's not even a law, much less one enforced dictatorially. It's more likely just off-putting to you, and you object to the existence of such people, or at least their visibility.

When I saw this language during the height of the pandemic, it was generally associated with people not being able to hold certain jobs or enter certain venues where vaccination or masking was required. They called that tyranny, which I understood to mean any limitation of their preferences and desires. If they couldn't do exactly what they wanted, regardless of the rights and needs of others, it was tyranny to them.

This gets back to my comments on empathy, community, and the size of one's in-group - the "we"s in one's mind's eye. In the extreme of inclusivity, "we" means the entire tree of life, or the entire animal kingdom if one doesn't include plants and fungi in "we." And this sense of one's community can become progressively smaller - just the white race, or just Americans, or just white Christians, or Qanon (WWG1WGA, where two of the Ws are for we). In the extreme, it's a community of one. There is no we, just I. I'd cite the former American president as an example of that, although he might include his daughter in his inner circle. The further one travels down that path of decreasing empathy and shrinking community/in-group, the more self-centered he is and the less interested in the emotional needs of others.

Reyn said:

I don’t like compelled speech and I’m completely against normalization of all this trans stuff.

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"Compelled" is in your mind. Obviously, you will never give those people anything - not respect, and not compassion - and you know that nobody can compel you to, so your objection must be to something else that you frame in terms of tyranny and compulsion. You're the victim here, right?

Reyn said:

It is destroying an entire generation.

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Really? Pronouns? Tolerance? Gender fluidity? These aren't threats to anybody. Here's what you need to worry about: creeping fascism, inflation, and extreme weather. Those are the things threatening to degrade your life. They are why you may lose rights and democracy itself, see your savings and standard of living erode, experience nuclear fallout, and become a climate migrant or lose your home.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

But you're not being forced to do anything. Calling that totalitarianism is hyperbole. It's not even a law, much less one enforced dictatorially. It's more likely just off-putting to you, and you object to the existence of such people, or at least their visibility.

When I saw this language during the height of the pandemic, it was generally associated with people not being able to hold certain jobs or enter certain venues where vaccination or masking was required. They called that tyranny, which I understood to mean any limitation of their preferences and desires. If they couldn't do exactly what they wanted, regardless of the rights and needs of others, it was tyranny to them.

This gets back to my comments on empathy, community, and the size of one's in-group - the "we"s in one's mind's eye. In the extreme of inclusivity, "we" means the entire tree of life, or the entire animal kingdom if one doesn't include plants and fungi in "we." And this sense of one's community can become progressively smaller - just the white race, or just Americans, or just white Christians, or Qanon (WWG1WGA, where two of the Ws are for we). In the extreme, it's a community of one. There is no we, just I. I'd cite the former American president as an example of that, although he might include his daughter in his inner circle. The further one travels down that path of decreasing empathy and shrinking community/in-group, the more self-centered he is and the less interested in the emotional needs of others.



"Compelled" is in your mind. Obviously, you will never give those people anything - not respect, and not compassion - and you know that nobody can compel you to, so your objection must be to something else that you frame in terms of tyranny and compulsion. You're the victim here, right?



Really? Pronouns? Tolerance? Gender fluidity? These aren't threats to anybody. Here's what you need to worry about: creeping fascism, inflation, and extreme weather. Those are the things threatening to degrade your life. They are why you may lose rights and democracy itself, see your savings and standard of living erode, experience nuclear fallout, and become a climate migrant or lose your home.

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Failing democracy is a threat but it's a threat from both sides, not just the far right. It is indeed illegal where I live to misgender someone. Yes, you can go to prison for it. Parents can have their children taken away for it as well.

Reyn said:

Failing democracy is a threat but it's a threat from both sides, not just the far right. It is indeed illegal where I live to misgender someone. Yes, you can go to prison for it. Parents can have their children taken away for it as well.

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Again, could you post some links to these laws? I want to learn more. That would seem pretty overreaching.

Quintessence said:

While perhaps "forced" is a strong word, here's an example situation. As I mentioned, the culture at my university has been starting to make a bigger deal of the pronoun thing. When it becomes normalized to introduce oneself followed by pronouns, those cultural norms pressure others to conform to them. Conformity pressure is huge for humans - a very powerful force - so more often than not folks go along with whatever is the norm.

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As a trans man, I will never introduce myself with my pronouns. I find it extremely offensive, as if I physically transitioned for nothing. And I refuse to learn new sets of pronouns. I draw the line at "they/them".

It Aint Necessarily So said:

Really? Pronouns? Tolerance? Gender fluidity? These aren't threats to anybody. Here's what you need to worry about: creeping fascism, inflation, and extreme weather. Those are the things threatening to degrade your life. They are why you may lose rights and democracy itself, see your savings and standard of living erode, experience nuclear fallout, and become a climate migrant or lose your home.

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Certainly not the first time Conservative ideology has espoused the idea that true equality and sharing society is the end of all of society and all things good.
Trans, gays, blacks, atheists, Jews, such groups apparently just groups just suck **** at ending society. Conservatives keep saying they will, so I guess all these groups need to try harder or something. Maybe actually caring about upending society would be a great start.

Reyn said:

Abnormal people are expecting the world to change for them

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Well, I would like to call you abnormal, but that's a rule violation I think. An ad hominem at the very least.
But I guess it's not a rule violation to call whole groups of people "abnormal", as you just did. Maybe don't do that?

Shadow Wolf said:

Certainly not the first time Conservative ideology has espoused the idea that true equality and sharing society is the end of all of society and all things good.
Trans, gays, blacks, atheists, Jews, such groups apparently just groups just suck **** at ending society. Conservatives keep saying they will, so I guess all these groups need to try harder or something. Maybe actually caring about upending society would be a great start.

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Equality exists. The Marxists don't want equality, they want equity.

Xavier Graham said:

Well, I would like to call you abnormal, but that's a rule violation I think. An ad hominem at the very least.
But I guess it's not a rule violation to call whole groups of people "abnormal", as you just did. Maybe don't do that?

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Gender dysphoria is a mental illness. Those who have it are mentally ill. Mentally ill people aren't normal. I'm abnormal, not because I'm mentally ill but because I don't fit into a box. That quality of not fitting into a box, doesn't make it impossible or even difficult to live and work.

Reyn said:

Equality exists. The Marxists don't want equality, they want equity.

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What's wrong with that?

And, please. There are no Marxist with power in America, and certainly not in Washington where the "left wing" party is a right wing party when compared to the rest of the world.

Reyn said:

Do NOT compare honorific titles and labels to pronouns. "I'm a proud doctor" isn't the same thing as demanding other people use specific pronouns for you. A doctor has earned the title doctor. Johnny who thinks he's Susy hasn't earned anything other than my contempt, yet still feels fit to demand laws be changed so I am forced to call him a she. Furthermore, "Captain" is an earned rank.

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I think Johnny has "earned" the right to be called Johnny, or whatever else he thinks is fitting, just by being respected as a human being.

Do you often call people things they don't want to be called?

Reyn said:

I don't care what you want to call yourself but I also have the right to call you crazy if what you call yourself is absurd. Expect me to call you something I'm not comfortable calling you? We have an issue. Make laws to force me to call you something I feel wrong about calling you? You have given me reason to declare war on you and everyone like you.

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I have to say, this sounds a lot like you're making this all about ... you.
Ironically?

Reyn said:

If men want to roam about in dresses, wear makeup, and think that makes them a woman, that's fine. However, they need to stop expecting me to validate their misinformed view of themselves and appropriation of womanhood. I'll validate their appropriation as appropriation. How about that? Anyways... My point is no one should be forced by law to validate another's delusions.

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Wait, their view of themselves, is misinformed?
It couldn't be that your view of someone else is misinformed, could it? I mean, are you saying you know more about other people than they do about themselves?

Reyn said:

I tend to favor the follow the rules or get out mentality. Your disability or brain differences, aren't going to excuse you from the rules. If you're yelling in class, you're yelling in class. If you yell because you have x disorder, then you still get sent to the principals office like anyone else. In the workplace, you do what the boss says and follow the rules. If you can't, then you get fired. It's simple.

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Hmm, what about people with Tourette's Syndrome?

Saint Frankenstein said:

As a trans man, I will never introduce myself with my pronouns. I find it extremely offensive, as if I physically transitioned for nothing. And I refuse to learn new sets of pronouns. I draw the line at "they/them".

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You draw the line, as in you refuse to use they/them pronouns for nonbinary people even though you've no better reason to disrespect them in such a way as people who refuse to use he/him for you based on the misinformed view that gender = sex?

Shadow Wolf said:

What's wrong with that?

And, please. There are no Marxist with power in America, and certainly not in Washington where the "left wing" party is a right wing party when compared to the rest of the world.

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The people watching should be paying for the game, not stealing a view.

ADigitalArtist said:

You draw the line, as in you refuse to use they/them pronouns for nonbinary people even though you've no better reason to disrespect them in such a way as people who refuse to use he/him for you based on the misinformed view that gender = sex?

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There is no such thing as non binary.

Reyn said:

The people watching should be paying for the game, not stealing a view.

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Now, again, what is wrong with being equitable? And do refrain from making assertions that have nothing to do with the question.
Seriously, that's more in line with my smart *** remarks of the version of that with black people all the way on the back with a crappy view. But that's not a part if what's being discussed, likely not even the intention, so it remains a mirthful comment and nothing serious.

Reyn said:

There is no such thing as non binary.

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Shhh, the adults are talking.

Reyn said:

There is no such thing as non binary.

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ADigitalArtist said:

Shhh, the adults are talking.

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*disappears and ceases to exist* *my native american two spirit ancestors cease to exist cuz even tho they aren't always considered these days to be nonbinary they are a third gender* *Loki disappears from mythology as a genderfluid god* *my anscestors that were called insultingly ergi cease to exist* *5 of the genders in classical judaism cease to exist* *lot of african genders just vanished* *ancient European third and fourth genders vanished from history* *intersex folk disappeared into the void*

Look you can say you don't agree with folk identifying as nonbinary but we do exist.

Reyn said:

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness. Those who have it are mentally ill. Mentally ill people aren't normal. I'm abnormal, not because I'm mentally ill but because I don't fit into a box. That quality of not fitting into a box, doesn't make it impossible or even difficult to live and work.

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I believe you are wrong. I used to think exactly like you on this topic. But then my only two relationships in my life so far have been with transgender people. The first one I made her believe she was mentally ill and she discarded her male identity (which is why I refer to her now as a "her"). I regret that. I was in the wrong.
My second relationship was with someone who identifies as they/them. I tried the same sh*t with them but they weren't having any of it. Through much discussion, they showed me I was wrong in my beliefs that transgenderism was abnormal.
Telling a transgender person that they are abnormal because of it is wrong. I can't elaborate on why as well as my ex can, but I know it only serves to harm people.
I'm severely mentally ill by the way. I'm not abnormal. It's a really harmful view to hold, as it only further stigmatizes mental illness. Mentally ill people can lead normal lives and shouldn't be deemed as abnormal. It is dangerous thinking isn't it? The Nazis killed people if they were mentally ill, because they were "abnormal".