Homosexuality and religious.

Bree said:

If i have a phobia, i have an 'excessive extreme, irrational, fear or panic reaction about a situation, living creature, place or object.' according to one definition.

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You're dishonestly misrepresenting the definition of homophobia again, even after the definition has been explained to you, more than once, how compelling do you think this is? I'll spell it out, it's risible nonsense.

Homophobia from the Oxford English dictionary...

irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or gay people

I've emboldened and enlarged that part you seem keen to ignore, note the word or....

Bree said:

so is it 'homosexuality' or is it 'gay people'?

because the two are entirely different.

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No they're not again this has been explained, go consult a dictionary.

Bree said:

Yes, pretty much it is because God said.

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No it isn't, such prejudice and bigotry is derived from ignorance and fear.

Bree said:

If God said it was ok, then there would not be any problem with it.

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I don't believe you, as you aren't ranting about tattoos or eating shellfish, or how far anyone can walk on the sabbath.

Bree said:

there has always been a problem with it even among nations who do not have the bible because it is universally unacceptable.

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Utter nonsense, do you think such false sweeping claims carry any credence to anyone remotely aware of history?

Bree said:

Universal laws stem from within mankinds conscience.

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It's not a universal law at all, such bigotry is in an increasingly shrinking minority. Some stupid people cling to such prejudices out of ignorance, fear and superstition, but most have moved on.

Bree said:

These are universal because when God created us, he designed us in a very particular way.

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good one.

Bree said:

If we step outside of that design, our conscience starts to condemn us and this leads to an internal conflict.

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Nope, my conscience would only bother me if I let vile lies and hate speech go unchallenged.

Bree said:

No one can change that because its the way we've been designed.

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Demonstrably false, the majority of people are doing precisely that in enlightened free societies. A shrinking minority now cling to ignorant superstitious bigotry.

YoursTrue said:

I guess you have to believe that Bahaullah was an emissary of God.

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My beliefs are irrelevant to this thread.
I was giving my personal impression of knowing Bahais.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

I don't think any of the religions understand what makes a society healthy and happy. It's not having children. That's merely a biological necessity to maintain a population. My happiness is unrelated to children. My family doesn't include them. My immediate community - my inner circle of friends and acquaintances - doesn't include them. The foundation for a healthy society can be found in the Affirmations of Humanism.

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Marriage is recommended for Baha'is, but not required, which means we don't have to have kids. This is just my opinion, but I believe that the main reason for prohibition of homosexual sex is that it spirituality harmful to those engaged in this practice, as is adultery, and for us adultery is any sex outside of marriage.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

As I just told TransmutingSoul, the opinions of believers are not useful to the skeptic in deciding if the Baha'i scriptures are homophobic. The scriptures themselves are.

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The scriptures themselves are not homophobic either, not just us. They don't teach what I said to you as being homophobic.

Sheldon said:

Homophobia from the Oxford English dictionary...

irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or gay people

I've emboldened and enlarged that part you seem keen to ignore, note the word or....

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I've emboldened and enlarged that part you seem keen to ignore, note the word or....
irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or gay people.

So homophobia could be a or b or c:
a. irrational fear of, or
b. aversion to, or
c. discrimination against homosexuality or gay people.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

I don't think he is referring to adherents as much as doctrine

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Yes, your right, and he is referring to our scriptures in the worst light sometimes, like when I pointed to him he was doing that. He often says about our religion that he is trying to get us think critically, under a false assumption that we don't, or at least I don't think critically. W

It Aint Necessarily So said:

I'm sure that there are older or even religious gay couples that no longer engage in sexual relations but are still gay, but those two things mean essentially the same thing to me.

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It doesn't mean the same thing to us. Can't you respect our opinion

It Aint Necessarily So said:

And your reason seems to be because somebody said that a god told him that. To me, holding a belief for that reason is wrong.

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You're entitled to your opinion, amd so are we. Being religious as you are saying here is not a bad thing, in our opinion. We don't see the history of religion as you do. I've studied that history pretty thoroughly. Have you? Whether you have or not can't you respect that I have a different opinion, and not try to force your opinion on me, which seems like an atheist prosyletizing, though it's obvious that the rules of this forum don't see atheists forcing atheism on people as proselytizing. I've heard atheists say before that atheism is the default position, so it can't be proselytizing, but I don't see it that way.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

But they don't. I know many such people. I live in an expat community, so they are all retired and older. They are indistinguishable from the straight community except in their sexual preference. They are just as kind, happy, and generous as anybody else. Most are in long-term committed relationships. These are our friends.

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A person's behavior is not confined to just his sexual behavior. I admire a lot of gay people who are in a gay sexual realationship.

It Aint Necessarily So said:

I don't see any intolerance for adherents here. All of you here have been treated respectfully, as I'm doing now. It's the doctrine that is being condemned, but also to some extent the willingness to not repudiate it.

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You should have tolerance for our beliefs. You don't. Not having tolerance is a bad characteristic, which is a religious teaching, however it may have been debased by some adherants over time. My opinion is that your dislike for religion is based on the debased behavior that developed over time, which has nothing to do with the original teachings.

F1fan said:

The Baha’i Faith Condemns homosexuality as immoral​

If you open the door....


Then you have the moral authority to reject this belief and no longer give it meaning. If you don't, then you value the idea more than the human beings who hapven to be gay. Bad image.


This is wanting your cake and eating it too. Whoever is in charge of Bahai should eliminate the attitude about homosexuality, because it isn't necessary. You claim you don't act on this belief, but you don't have a problem stating it is what Bahai stands for. And you are a member. The harm is done.

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In the Baha’i Faith marriage is between a man and a woman. One of the main reasons given is procreation. The perpetuity of the human race is essential to our survival. So I have no problem promoting the Baha’i standard on family and married life as it is based on the survival of our species. No harm is done by standing for what is in humanity’s best interests.

Every child must have a mother and a father and to deprive it of either is in my view positively dangerous because both sexes are important not any one single sex. You must have had a mother and father or you couldn’t exist. So heterosexuality is the very cause of your being. If no one in the world was homosexual it would not matter but heterosexuality is essential for the survival of the human race.

People can do what they like I don’t care, but I believe the Baha’i teachings promoting family life are what is best for our survival not same sex marriage.

Dawnofhope said:

I believe it can be challenging in some circumstances for LGBT and conservative religionists to work closely together. There is prejudice and misunderstanding on both sides. I work in health so I have inevitably have quite a few LGBT patients. I don't mention my religious beliefs unless asked (that rarely happens) and I endeavour to treat LGBT the same as anyone else.

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Since we are doing something with the use of science, here is a field of practically applied science:
Social pedagogy - Wikipedia

The end generalization of your example is this: Those, who don't fit the cultural/political/religious idea of a good life and those, who controls that narrative.
That is not unique to your example. I know, because I don't fit my culture's narrative of a good life and that has nothing to do with your example as per sexaulity. What makes me wrong, is that I have 3 psychiatric disorders.

Truthseeker said:

Yes, your right, and he is referring to our scriptures in the worst light sometimes, like when I pointed to him he was doing that. He often says about our religion that he is trying to get us think critically, under a false assumption that we don't, or at least I don't think critically. W

It doesn't mean the same thing to us. Can't you respect our opinion

You're entitled to your opinion, amd so are we. Being religious as you are saying here is not a bad thing, in our opinion. We don't see the history of religion as you do. I've studied that history pretty thoroughly. Have you? Whether you have or not can't you respect that I have a different opinion, and not try to force your opinion on me, which seems like an atheist prosyletizing, though it's obvious that the rules of this forum don't see atheists forcing atheism on people as proselytizing. I've heard atheists say before that atheism is the default position, so it can't be proselytizing, but I don't see it that way.

A person's behavior is not confined to just his sexual behavior. I admire a lot of gay people who are in a gay sexual realationship.

You should have tolerance for our beliefs. You don't. Not having tolerance is a bad characteristic, which is a religious teaching, however it may have been debased by some adherants over time. My opinion is that your dislike for religion is based on the debased behavior that developed over time, which has nothing to do with the original teachings.

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Yeah, there is nothing wrong with religion as such.
But here is what we are playing with religion.
You rely on the right prophets. In my religion we are all prophets. So if your prophets say something is wrong as from God and I as a prophets say it is right as from God then what?
For your religion if a Bahai follower reinterprets God's love to include active homosexual, is that person a Bahai follower?

Jedster said:

My beliefs are irrelevant to this thread.
I was giving my personal impression of knowing Bahais.

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A person or distinctive group may be very nice, but that does not mean that it is from God.

CG Didymus said:

The "aversion" is because, whether you say or not, we all know that Baha'is believe their religion is the one and only truth for today. It has replaced the teachings of all other religion and has corrected the false beliefs and doctrines that have crept into those other religions.

You may love the Baha'i Faith and agree with everything it teaches. But what about those of us that think we have found flaws within the practice and teachings of the Baha'i Faith?

But, you know what Baha'is could do, is supply some evidence that those that used to be homosexual, and then joined the Baha'i Faith, have since been "healed" of their gayness and have gone straight. In other words, do the Baha'i teachings work to actually, and successfully, get people out of that lifestyle that the Baha'i Faith teaches is wrong and has been forbidden? Are there Baha'is that have been "cured" from being homosexual? But then the next question is... How many gay Baha'is tried to change, and it didn't work? Then I've already read a couple stories of gay Baha'is that left the Faith.

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I don't have any miraculous stories of gay Baha'is becoming heterosexual. I did find this rather interesting and touching story about a Baha'i coming to terms with being gay.

Being Baha’i and Gay

CG Didymus said:

No, is it wrong? Baha'is say yes. Does science agree?

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In regards science and religion, the words of another openly gay Bahaí;

Being an openly gay Baha’i can be quite challenging, I wish I could say I have personally found peace with my being a gay Baha’i , but that would not be one hundred percent honest, instead I have decided to ‘make the most’ out of a complex situation.

First and foremost everyone Baha’i and non-Baha’i should understand that the Baha’i Faith claims to “embrace all of humanity” and that prejudice towards gays and lesbians is not be tolerated in the Baha’i community, yet there is a law in Baha’i doctrine interpreted as forbidding all homosexual relationships (technically based on same gender sex acts, yet interpreted to cover all homosexual relationships, sexual or otherwise).

Sex in the Baha’i Faith is only allowed in Marriage, and Marriage is only between partners of opposite genders, thus making gay Unions or Marriage non-existent at the present time.

Making the topic of homosexuality in the Baha’i Faith ever more complicated is the progressive Baha’i teaching about the ‘Balance of Science and Religion’, Baha’is believe both science and religion should work in unison to balance each other out. Sadly whatever scientific advances regarding a genetic origin for homosexuality is ignored by the Baha’i Administration because it would still clash with the Baha’i Law barring homosexual relationships.

So how have I ‘made the most’ out of this complicated matter? I could have easily ‘dropped out’ of the Baha’i Faith , but have decided to remain a Baha’i. By remaining an openly gay Baha’i I believe I could do more good in educating fellow Baha’is about the core Baha’i teachings about the ‘Oneness of Humanity’ and the ‘Elimination of all Prejudices’ (homophobia being a form of prejudice).

The internet has opened a portal for instant communication and sharing with other Baha’is that was not present before, and I take advantage of any opportunity I can to share about what it truly means to be a gay Baha’i.

I have faith that the ‘newest’ of the world religions will truly open their hearts to gay couples, the journey for such an endeavour will not come easily, but ultimately justice will prevail.

What do the Baha'i think about the LGBT community? - Quora

I don't agree with everything he says but its important to note there are Baha'is who are openly gay. Not everyone leaves. We all have our challenges in life and none of us are perfect.

mikkel_the_dane said:

What makes me wrong, is that I have 3 psychiatric disorders.

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While I have no experience with being gay, I have had extensive experience with psychiatric disorders both personally and professionally as do many Baha'is I know.

YoursTrue said:

A person or distinctive group may be very nice, but that does not mean that it is from God.

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I like nice people.
When I meet someone who is nice, I never ask them where they are from.

Truthseeker said:

Okay you got me, but the whole quote is this "...Bahá'u'lláh has spoken very strongly against this shameful sexual aberration, as He has against adultery and immoral conduct in general. We must try and help the soul to overcome them. "(25 October 1949)

I also point out this was in behalf of Shoghi Effendi, and for us this has a lower status than words written by Shoghi Effendi. I think the general gist of this is that if a person engages in homosexual acts, it is immoral, just as adultery is, which I what I said earlier to you.

I wrote this not expecting you to understand. As someone who does not believe in Baha'u'llah there is no basis for you to believe this or understand it. As to the last sentence you wrote, a Baha'i employer would definitely hire a homosexual. We are not intolerant or shouldn't be.

I'm just saying that the species carries on through procreation. I respect that you can see that differently. You're right that sex is not only about procreation. You're also right that other species have homosexiality.

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You certainly seem more willing to adjust your position based on evidence and rational argument that some on here.
I commend your open-mindedness.

Truthseeker said:

He falsely thought that all love was fleeting, which is understandable given what his presumed experience was and what others perhaps told him. The key to me was where he used the word "fleeting". Passion is fleeting, it does not last. Spiritual attraction lasts. At the beginning of my marriage with Sara, there was some passion, some emotional bonds, but all along there was also some spiritual basis for our marriage. I can tell because we love each other after 40 years.

The fourth is the love of man for man. The love which exists between the hearts of believers is prompted by the ideal of the unity of spirits. This love is attained through the knowledge of God, so that men see the Divine Love reflected in the heart. Each sees in the other the Beauty of God reflected in the soul, and finding this point of similarity, they are attracted to one another in love. This love will make all men the waves of one sea, this love will make them all the stars of one heaven and the fruits of one tree. This love will bring the realization of true accord, the foundation of real unity.

But the love which sometimes exists between friends is not (true) love, because it is subject to transmutation; this is merely fascination. As the breeze blows, the slender trees yield. If the wind is in the East the tree leans to the West, and if the wind turns to the West the tree leans to the East. This kind of love is originated by the accidental conditions of life. This is not love, it is merely acquaintanceship; it is subject to change.

Today you will see two souls apparently in close friendship; tomorrow all this may be changed. Yesterday they were ready to die for one another, today they shun one another's society! This is not love; it is the yielding of the hearts to the accidents of life. When that which has caused this 'love' to exist passes, the love passes also; this is not in reality love.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 180)

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Some love lasts, some does not. Some love changes and evolves. Some love is beneficial and some is detrimental. That is the way of human nature.
It is always unwise to talk in absolutes about the abstract or subjective.

Truthseeker said:

The Baha'i Faith is not homophobic.

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It contains homophobic passages.

Homophobic : irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or gay people. Definition of HOMOPHOBIA

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You don't think that calling it an evil passion, shameful aberration, handicap, against nature, to be purged from the world, etc is "irrational aversion or discrimination"? Or "a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality"? Homophobia - Wikipedia

Curious on the topic, I found this video: Mr. Orey was a Bahai who wrote a letter in 1993 to the NSA of the USA. Two months back he put this video on line. It's very well done and summarizes the situation well. I watched the whole thing, it's only 22 minutes long.

Dawnofhope said:

Fertility rates of heterosexual couples over a one year period are about 80 - 85%. Fertility rates for homosexual couples over a one year period are exactly 0 %. Science establishes a strong co-relationship between fertility and heterosexual intercourse and a non-existent relationship between homosexuality and fertility.

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So you believe homosexuality is a shameful sexual aberration, a handicap, against nature, an evil passion that should be purged from the world - because homosexual couples cannot naturally conceive children?
Interesting.
What about infertile heterosexual couples? Do the same descriptions apply?

Brian2 said:

But if you don't like doing it then maybe it shouldn't be a thing in your sex life.

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Good idea.
I don't like aubergine, so I don't eat it (not a euphemism).
However, I don't call people who like aubergine evil, immoral, etc (weird, yes!). And I certainly won't be demanding that others not eat it, even if I had the power to enforce it.

Dawnofhope said:

In a 2011 study of American lesbian, gay, and bisexual adolescents, Mark Hatzenbuehler found that a more conservative social environment elevated risk in suicidal behavior among all youth and that this effect was stronger for LGB youth. Furthermore, he found that the social environment partially mediated the relation between LGB status and suicidal behaviour. Hatzenbuehler found that even after such social as well as individual factors were controlled for, however, that "LGB status remained a significant predictor of suicide attempts."[32]

Suicide among LGBT youth - Wikipedia

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Indeed. It is well established that intolerance of homosexuals increases their suicide risk. I agree that such intolerance is fundamentally harmful.