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Atheists: what would it take?

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Not really.
What about ideas?
Is our awareness physical? If not, where is our awareness seated?
Quantum particles communicate instantaneously. Is there a physical or material link?

It depends upon whether one is a monist or a dualist. Are thoughts physical? Space is nonphysical, yet exists! Many agree on four dimensions, but there are theories of more dimensions.
God could exist in a dimension we cannot comprehend yet.

God is spirit. Most Christians entertain the idea that our spirits are non-physical entities that survive death.

Monists believe only in the natural and what can be explained naturally with no supernatural or nonphysical.

Hmmm, where to start?

Lots of things are described as "existing" and that existence has a different definition in each case. I'll take an "idea" as an example. Do you believe an idea can exist without something physical (in this case a brain) to support it? So an is idea is something non-physical certainly, but doesn't exist in the same sense that a brain exists. How about a pattern? It is a feature of, say a painting, that only exists when a brain perceives it as such. I could go on.

More importantly though, an idea has no power in itself. If you see God that way, then it would be not only non-physical, but totally unable to actually "do" anything, which is not the case for what you define as God.

You say God is spirit, but don't seem to have any idea of what "spirit" is, except to say it is non-physical. You go on to say that "most" Christians believe something is true. With respect, this is not subject to a vote. "Spirit" either exists or it doesn't, and if it exists it has certain properties, and if that's so it is open to scientific investigation.

Incidentally, I'm open to the idea that God could exist in another dimension (or set of dimensions). If so, then it would be physical, as these other dimensions also would be physical. Incidentally, to be able to check that, we need some way to examine this other world. There has to be some way, otherwise God could not influence this world. In any case, there's no need to suppose some kind of non-physical entity. And obviously, without such a method, all you have is a conjecture.
 

Five Solas

Active Member
More importantly though, an idea has no power in itself. If you see God that way, then it would be not only non-physical, but totally unable to actually "do" anything, which is not the case for what you define as God.
I agree.
God is real meaning he exists mind-independently.
However, many gods are mind-dependent. They are creations of human imagination. That is often the case in theological liberalism.

You say God is spirit, but don't seem to have any idea of what "spirit" is, except to say it is non-physical.
I wish I could be clearer.
The nearest indication I can think of is the 'state' of Jesus after His resurrection. He appeared and disappeared at will. It would appear that He was not limited by time. It would seem that He was physical and non-physical at the same time.

I believe (my ideas) we never die entirely. Our spirit lives on and our conscience is seated in our spirit. I think one is aware of dying - or at least the initial process. But I do not think one can look at earth from a distance. Our soul goes somewhere - I think.
Incidentally, I'm open to the idea that God could exist in another dimension (or set of dimensions). If so, then it would be physical, as these other dimensions also would be physical.
Who knows. Still: John 4:24. Verse Concepts. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”.
Some time ago I read a lot on quantum physics. It's mind-boggling. But it made me believe more in God because it indicates that there are ways of exists which we do not understand yet.
 

Five Solas

Active Member
No they do not. This is a popular misconception about entangled particles. But it is wrong.

Imagine you have two pens: a red one and a blue one. They are in a box and nobody can see them. You mix them up and pick one without looking at it. Then have your friend take the other pen (still not looking at either one). When your friend is across the country, you look at your pen. If you see it is red, you instantly know your friend has the blue pen.

No signal is exchanged. No communication happens when you look at your pen. But you know what pen your friend has (even if your friend does not).

The physical link was then the pens were together and you chose one.

Yes, they do. What about this?

The twin-photon experiment by Dr. Nicolas Gisin of the University of Geneva and his colleagues was the most spectacular demonstration yet of the mysterious long-range connections that exist between quantum events, connections created from nothing at all, which in theory can reach instantaneously from one end of the universe to the other.

In essence, Dr. Gisin sent pairs of photons in opposite directions to villages north and south of Geneva along optical fibers of the kind used to transmit telephone calls. Reaching the ends of these fibers, the two photons were forced to make random choices between alternative, equally possible pathways.

Since there was no way for the photons to communicate with each other, ''classical'' physics would predict that their independent choices would bear no relationship to each other. But when the paths of the two photons were properly adjusted and the results compared, the independent decisions by the paired photons always matched, even though there was no physical way for them to communicate with each other.

The idea behind Dr. Gisin's experiment was not new. Since the 1970's, physicists have been testing a prediction of quantum theory that ''entangled'' particles continue to communicate with each other instantaneously even when very far apart.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, they do. What about this?

The twin-photon experiment by Dr. Nicolas Gisin of the University of Geneva and his colleagues was the most spectacular demonstration yet of the mysterious long-range connections that exist between quantum events, connections created from nothing at all, which in theory can reach instantaneously from one end of the universe to the other.

In essence, Dr. Gisin sent pairs of photons in opposite directions to villages north and south of Geneva along optical fibers of the kind used to transmit telephone calls. Reaching the ends of these fibers, the two photons were forced to make random choices between alternative, equally possible pathways.

Since there was no way for the photons to communicate with each other, ''classical'' physics would predict that their independent choices would bear no relationship to each other. But when the paths of the two photons were properly adjusted and the results compared, the independent decisions by the paired photons always matched, even though there was no physical way for them to communicate with each other.

The idea behind Dr. Gisin's experiment was not new. Since the 1970's, physicists have been testing a prediction of quantum theory that ''entangled'' particles continue to communicate with each other instantaneously even when very far apart.

Yes, *classical* physics would predict there would be no correlation. Quantum physics predicts there will be, however. And in quantum physics, there is no communication.

Think of it like this. If you do not know whether the pen is red or blue, you cannot determine which path is taken. Nonetheless, every blue pen takes one of the paths and every red pen takes the other. The polarization that gives the 'random path' actually separates out red and blue for which path to go down.

There is more to it, of course, but the basics are that the way to photons were *made* produces the correlations. There is no communication between the photons at the opposite sides.

In fact, from Gisin and Zbinden's article, https://arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/9806043.pdf

"Quantum theory is nonlocal. Indeed, quantum theory
predicts correlations among distant measurement out-
comes that cannot be explained by any theory which
involves only local variables. This was anticipated by
Einstein, Podolski and Rosen [1] and by Schr ̈odinger [2],
among others, and first demonstrated by John Bell in
1964 with his now famous inequality [3]. However, the
nonlocal feature cannot be exploited for superluminal
communication [4]. "

The most common mistake in interpreting quantum mechanics is trying to do so with classical ideas. In QM, particles do NOT have definite properties at all times, nor do they necessarily take only one path. Because of this, it is inevitable to get paradoxes when interpreting quantum results with classical ideas.

But, in the formulation of QM, there is no communication between the particles. There is no way to cause communication to happen. And the results at either end *look* random until they are brought together and the correlations are revealed.

By the way, you should give a reference when you quote an article. You quoted from Far Apart, 2 Particles Respond Faster Than Light (Published 1997) (or something that quoted it) without reference. This is technically a violation of our rules.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
History cannot change - it is fact.
Recording history does not change history.
My feelings did not create the Bible.
One can deny and reinterpret history but never change it.

You are correct. Your feelings don't affect how and why the Bible was brought together, nor why the individual books were written. Your feelings don't affect the political nature of those choices or how the alternatives were systematically persecuted. Your feelings don't affect that humans chose which books would be in the Bible and they made those choices with an eye to political power. Your feelings don't affect how legends grow in a superstitious society and how death and resurrection were seen as the necessary mark for divinity, so the story was written in.

Recording history is *always* done from some biased perspective. It is *always* done to convey a particular opinion or view of the world. In the ancient world, copying and transmitting texts was expensive and time consuming, so there was *always* a motivation to do these.

Figuring out what was the *real* history takes a skeptical approach to all texts and their history. No historical text, especially from the ancient world, should be taken at face value. Often, the writings convey more about what people *want* rather than what actually happened.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
History cannot change - it is fact.
Recording history does not change history.
My feelings did not create the Bible.
One can deny and reinterpret history but never change it.

Be careful. I suppose we can assume that, way back when, something happened and once time passed it is inflexible, that is we can't change what happened.

The problem (with all history) is that we don't have direct access to that event. All we have is some kind of record, often written and sometimes evidenced by the current state of material objects. What historians do is to examine these records and come up with a "most likely" statement of what actually happened. I imagine they would be the first to admit that some element of error is necessarily inherent in their work.

So, though "History cannot change - it is fact" is technically true, unfortunately that "fact" is not accessible to any of us and cannot be used to support any particular viewpoint. Some "processed" history is all we have.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
I agree.
God is real meaning he exists mind-independently.
However, many gods are mind-dependent. They are creations of human imagination. That is often the case in theological liberalism.

I agree that IF God exists he would exist mind-independently.

As to which of the mind-dependent "gods" bear some correspondence to some "actual" god, well, there are libraries full of books discussing that.

I wish I could be clearer.
The nearest indication I can think of is the 'state' of Jesus after His resurrection. He appeared and disappeared at will. It would appear that He was not limited by time. It would seem that He was physical and non-physical at the same time.

I believe (my ideas) we never die entirely. Our spirit lives on and our conscience is seated in our spirit. I think one is aware of dying - or at least the initial process. But I do not think one can look at earth from a distance. Our soul goes somewhere - I think.

Who knows. Still: John 4:24. Verse Concepts. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”.
Some time ago I read a lot on quantum physics. It's mind-boggling. But it made me believe more in God because it indicates that there are ways of exists which we do not understand yet.

I'll repeat for the record, which you seem to understand, my point, which is that everything that now considered "spiritual" of non-physical would, if it were to be explained scientifically, be considered part of the physical universe. You will say that is a truism, and it is, but I go on to suggest that it doesn't need to affect our relationship to "god" at all. Everything that is now "explained" by "magic" would become some kind of physical phenomenon, but would we still attempt to obey God? Would we be guided by God? Would we still thank God for the "blessings"?

Just for fun, I'll re-write your points above.

After his physical death, Jesus appeared to his followers in the form of a very advanced image, based on recordings. We have no idea how that was done.

A recording of our minds is made on the substance of sub-space. This recording survives the death of our physical body We have no idea how that is done.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
Surely, if something exists it has to consist of something. If it consists if something, then it can be described as "physical", so long as we include all the states of matter, energy and so on.
What about information, VR, internet space...? Is it really physical or it just depends on something physical?
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
History cannot change - it is fact.
Recording history does not change history.
My feelings did not create the Bible.
One can deny and reinterpret history but never change it.
What is recorded/written is not automatically historical. It could be partly or fully fictional.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
This one's for the Atheists:

What would it take for you to follow a religion?

I mean, if a religion turned out to be verifiably true, would you follow it?

Assuming there were tons of evidence available for it that would make an absence of belief akin to denying the evident?

For instance, if Jesus were to very publicly return to Earth from Heaven and start working miracles would you become a Christian?

If you are an Atheist due to an absence of belief, would this give you cause to believe?

And if you are an Atheist who positively disbelieves, would this make you change your mind?

Basically: would evidence make religious claims reasonable to you, and would you then act on those beliefs were you to find them reasonable? And change how you live accordingly?
I would have no choice but to believe Jesus was god. Following him is a different question. If he could give me good evidence that he was good and ethical then maybe. But then again if he was good and ethical he would not ask anyone to follow him under fear of punishment.
 

Five Solas

Active Member
What is recorded/written is not automatically historical. It could be partly or fully fictional.
Nope, if you record history, you record history.
If you write fiction, you write fiction.
What the reader does with a historical record is a different story. Historical revisionism is common - especially when atheists look at biblical historical records.
People just love to refer to it as Bible stories. That is not an honest description of a historical account.
 

Five Solas

Active Member
if it were to be explained scientifically, be considered part of the physical universe.
I agree. Science can only observe things that are part of the created universe.
After his physical death, Jesus appeared to his followers in the form of a very advanced image, based on recordings. We have no idea how that was done.

A recording of our minds is made on the substance of sub-space. This recording survives the death of our physical body We have no idea how that is done.
I'm not with you.

I think it is a glimpse into the world after death - another dimension perhaps.
 
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