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Is the United States really a democracy?

Is the United States really a democracy

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 38.7%
  • NO

    Votes: 17 54.8%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 2 6.5%

  • Total voters
    31

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
"We are far and away the most countermajoritarian democracy in the world," said Steven Levitsky, a professor of goverment at Harvard University.
  • Fact: two of the last four Presidents lost the popular vote: both of them Repbulican (George W. Bush and Donald Trump).
  • Fact: the power to set government policy is becoming increasingly disconnected from public opinion, often because of unbalanced party affiliation in the Supreme and other superior courts. And because such appointments are for life, this may continue for years or even decades.
  • Fact: Senators representing a majority of the American people are often unable to pass bills.
  • Fact: a growing movement in one of the country's two political parties (Republican) to refuse to accept defeat in an election.
I am voting that no, the US is not a democracy as I personally understand it. My arguments are above. If you vote "yes," please make your arguments.
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
The United States is a Democratic Republic. In fact, before senators were directly elected the United States was mostly a Republic. It has slowly became more democratic over time but may or may not ever reach that point. Remember, America still has an electoral collage ... for now.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
"We are far and away the most countermajoritarian democracy in the world," said Steven Levitsky, a professor of goverment at Harvard University.
  • Fact: two of the last four Presidents lost the popular vote: both of them Repbulican (George W. Bush and Donald Trump).
  • Fact: the power to set government policy is becoming increasingly disconnected from public opinion, often because of unbalanced party affiliation in the Supreme and other superior courts. And because such appointments are for life, this may continue for years or even decades.
  • Fact: Senators representing a majority of the American people are often unable to pass bills.
  • Fact: a growing movement in one of the country's two political parties (Republican) to refuse to accept defeat in an election.
I am voting that no, the US is not a democracy as I personally understand it. My arguments are above. If you vote "yes," please make your arguments.
I side with the experts that declared the US as an oligarchy now.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Based on the Wikipedia explanation for the term "democracy", I think the United States fits firmly in the category of representative democracy.

It is up to the constitution to define who qualifies to vote and then how those votes are aggregated/counted.

Historically in the US, a much smaller percentage of the population was even eligible to vote and it was considered a representative democracy even then.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
One more go-round with the republicans in power and the vote will become irrelevant. This is not just talk, This is a fact. And it may happen regardless. As the republican party and their toadies on the Supreme Court are trying to pass a law that would allow state legislators to ignore their citizen's votes for any reason they choose and appoint whomever they choose to whatever office they choose, without ever being held accountable for it by the judiciary. They would be completely above the law, and free to appoint anyone they choose regardless of who the people of their state voted for. And since republicans already hold a majority or legislative positions in most states, if this law is passed, they will immediately fill every position with like-minded (dictatorial authoritarian) republicans. Democracy will be truly and fully dead in the U.S., and the democratic party would be shut out of political discourse entirely. That is their goal. So would any other party that tried to evolve. The U.S. would be an absolute dictatorship, much like China is, today.
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The United States is a Democratic Republic. In fact, before senators were directly elected the United States was mostly a Republic. It has slowly became more democratic over time but may or may not ever reach that point. Remember, America still has an electoral collage ... for now.
One look at who exactly those electors are is telling.

Example.... Hillary was one elector , Bill the other.


It's a fixed and now rigged system only open to the elite and privileged in society. Essentially a private voters club that votes for its own members, where the general commoners are completly excluded from ever voting in a president.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I actually am with @Twilight Hue on this one (shock of shocks). By all reasonable accounts the US should be considered an oligarchy with a powerful illusion of democracy.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I actually am with @Twilight Hue on this one (shock of shocks). By all reasonable accounts the US should be considered an oligarchy with a powerful illusion of democracy.
I suppose that's the 'socialist' side of me. *grin*

I do however maintain the power and influence of corporations have pretty much taken over the government and drive policy and laws.

It's something now out of control and is probably too late now to ever correct.
 

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
I actually am with @Twilight Hue on this one (shock of shocks). By all reasonable accounts the US should be considered an oligarchy with a powerful illusion of democracy.

I suppose that's the 'socialist' side of me. *grin*

I do however maintain the power and influence of corporations have pretty much taken over the government and drive policy and laws.

It's something now out of control and is probably too late now to ever correct.

Yup I agree. Corporations are people,.was the first step to our downfall. :(
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
It's a fixed and now rigged system only open to the elite and privileged in society. Essentially a private voters club that votes for its own members, where the general commoners are completly excluded from ever voting in a president.

The public votes for its electors, and then the electoral collage in that state votes for the President. I always found this odd, because, if the electoral collage doesn't have anyone from third parties or true independents (like Ross Perot), how does the public then vote for someone who is not a Democrat or a Republican?

I wouldn't call it an obligatory, but there is definitely a control mechanism that forces the general public to vote for either side of the aisle. Third parties, whether they are more extreme (Libertarians or Greens), less extreme (Reform or Yang's Forward Party) or just plain Independents have virtually no choice but to be part of the duopoly of American politics: you're forced to be either left or right. Democrat or Republican.

That isn't fair for anyone who doesn't fit into modern liberal/conservative cookie-cutter candidates of either party. My ISideWith results are typically 60% Libertarian, 60% Republican and 40% Democrat. So I guess I'll choose the guy who has 60% of my views? :confused:
 
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Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
One more go-round with the republicans in power and the vote will become irrelevant. This is not just talk, This is a fact. And it may happen regardless. As the republican party and their toadies on the Supreme Court are trying to pass a law that would allow state legislators to ignore their citizen's votes for any reason they choose and appoint whomever they choose to whatever office they choose, without ever being held accountable for it by the judiciary. They would be completely above the law, and free to appoint anyone they choose regardless of whom the people of their state votes for. And since republicans already hold a majority or legislative positions is most states, if this law is passed, they will immediately fill every position with like-minded (dictatorial authoritarian) republicans. Democracy will be truly and fully dead in the U.S., and the democratic party would be shut out of political discourse entirely. So would any other party that tried to evolve. The U.S. would be an absolute dictatorship, much like China is, today.
And it could happen in just one state -- Pennsylvania. Running for Governor right now is Doug Mastriano (R), who still denies the 2020 election, and who has declared that he would have reversed the PA vote if he'd been in power. For the record, that would have made Trump President again, with a 7 million vote deficit. Mastriano is even now claiming that he would empower his Secretary of State to be "delegated from me to make the corrections to elections, the voting logs and everything..." And to decertify every voting machine in the state.

See those words? "Corrections to elections, voting logs and everything." That means that if the voters didn't "vote correctly," he would "fix it."
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
"We are far and away the most countermajoritarian democracy in the world," said Steven Levitsky, a professor of goverment at Harvard University.
  • Fact: two of the last four Presidents lost the popular vote: both of them Repbulican (George W. Bush and Donald Trump).
  • Fact: the power to set government policy is becoming increasingly disconnected from public opinion, often because of unbalanced party affiliation in the Supreme and other superior courts. And because such appointments are for life, this may continue for years or even decades.
  • Fact: Senators representing a majority of the American people are often unable to pass bills.
  • Fact: a growing movement in one of the country's two political parties (Republican) to refuse to accept defeat in an election.
I am voting that no, the US is not a democracy as I personally understand it. My arguments are above. If you vote "yes," please make your arguments.

Well, the U.S. was never really a true democracy in the strictest sense. A democratic-republic, or perhaps representative democracy may be more accurate terms to use.

Another question one might ask is whether we truly have a free and open marketplace of ideas. Do people have the right to make free choices without undue influence, persuasion, or manipulation from hucksters and con artists? Do the people have a guarantee that political campaigns will be run clean and above board, with no dirty tricks, no backroom deals, no superdelegates, and no mudslinging?

It is what it is, and as Churchill put it, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others" or something to that effect. And there are drawbacks to our system, as you've outlined here. Some of it may be due to the long-term effects of corruption, apathy, and complacency which has been evident in the system for decades. People have been warning about it for decades, that there would be consequences down the road if we continued to act recklessly and irresponsibly, but most people didn't want to hear about it.

One thing about democracy is that the people actually have to be aware enough and active enough and informed enough to truly make it work for the benefit of the people. If the people are mostly fools and suckers, then they get the government they deserve. A lot of people may not like it, but that's democracy for you.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
The United States is a Democratic Republic. In fact, before senators were directly elected the United States was mostly a Republic. It has slowly became more democratic over time but may or may not ever reach that point. Remember, America still has an electoral collage ... for now.
Basically that.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I actually am with @Twilight Hue on this one (shock of shocks). By all reasonable accounts the US should be considered an oligarchy with a powerful illusion of democracy.
Yes, this is true. But the citizens could still put a stop to this at any time. All they'd have to do is start voting out the incumbent candidates of both parties in every election, unless and until they get someone in there that is willing to ACT to stop the legalized bribery and "dark money" that now completely corrupts every politician on BOTH sides of the isle.

One more time with the republicans in power, however, and this possibility will be ELIMINATED. The public will no longer be able to vote any candidate in or out of any office. Elections will be nothing more than 'pretend democracy'.
 
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