Homosexuality and religious.

ppp · Sep 24, 2022

mikkel_the_dane said:
Yes, but to understand that you have to use basic meta-cognition, i.e. to think about how you think and know. Not all humans can do that for knowledge. It doesn't mean that I am right and they are wrong or in reverse. It means that we think differently., that is all.

I could not parse that.

We Never Know · Sep 24, 2022

Policy said:
You think that knowledge is a belief "system"?

Google "knowledge is a subset of beliefs". There are web pages on it.

KWED · Sep 24, 2022

loverofhumanity said:
Yes that’s correct and true that God has always used human beings to communicate His Messages to us because we are human and only understand human sentiments, emotions and values, so God uses the human medium.

So you admit that you are merely assuming that these men were messengers of god, based on what those men said. There is always the possibility that they were either delusional or dishonest - even if you don't believe they were.

If you look at the lives of the Great Prophets, They accepted stoning, exile, imprisonment, poverty and crucifixion and had no interest in worldly possessions or power.

Are you claiming that anyone who willingly suffers persecution for their cause is necessarily a messenger of god?

They called people to a virtuous and spiritual life, to love one another, help the poor and improve their conduct.

So what? How does that show they were talking to god?

Their only reward was humanity’s cruelty and torture and the persecution of their followers.

So you are saying that anyone promoting a new ideology who is persecuted is a messenger of god?

Eventually, through Their Words alone, born of the power of God’s Spirit, They subdued all humanity.

No they didn't!

Thousands of years after Their death they still win the hearts and souls of billions. None can achieve this except a power from God.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc all managed pretty well.

Let those who disbelieve attempt to equal Their achievement of conquering with Words alone, the hearts against the cruelest forms of opposition, penniless and powerless except for a handful of insignificant followers.

Are you seriously claiming that Christianity and Islam became global without the use of force and without any financial backing?

Not a fan of history then?

In every world, He appears according to the capacity of that world. For example, in the world of spirits He manifests Himself to them and appears unto them with the signs of the Spirit.

More claims without evidence.

So, likewise, in bodies in the world of names and attributes; and in the worlds which are not known to any save God. All of these worlds have their position from this Manifestation. He appears unto them in His Form, so that He, their Lord, may direct them, and draw them nearer to the seat of His Command, and cause them to attain to that which was ordained for them. As His Reality is not known, so likewise all that is related to Him is not known, except to a certain degree.

And meaningless platitudes.

Verily, were God the Exalted to appear in His (proper) grade and form, and in a manner befitting His Station, no one could ever approach Him or endure to be near Him.

This is the thing. God can do literally anything. If he wanted to appear to everyone in the world, without using human intermediaries, in a way that we all found convincing and appealing - he could. In fact, he would. The very idea that god deliberately makes it so that the majority of people will reject him is utterly incoherent.

KWED · Sep 24, 2022

Trailblazer said:
How are the Baha'is harming anyone?

Bahai teachings tell homosexuals that their nature is evil, immoral, shameful aberration, handicapped and against nature.
How is that not harming them?

Your pal SeekerofWhiteLight is constantly complaining about my treatment of Bahais simply because I challenge and criticise their beliefs - but I would never dream of calling them "evil, immoral, shameful aberration, handicapped and against nature".

You do realise that homosexuals can suffer great mental anguish due to the kind of nasty homophobia in Bahai teachings, some even take their own lives. It is quite disgraceful for people to blithely claim that it "harms no one".

ppp · Sep 24, 2022

We Never Know said:
Google "knowledge is a subset of beliefs". There are web pages on it.

Yes. Yes. Yes. You are missing the point. To believe is to accept that something is true or likely true. When people claim to know that are attaching a level of certainty that may or may not be earned.

That is about proposition about what is.

A belief system, while it uses the word belief, is a system of principles by which one thinks one ought to live. While what one believes/knows definitely impacts what one thinks one ought to do, calling knowledge a belief system doesn't make sense.

mikkel_the_dane · Sep 24, 2022

Policy said:
I could not parse that.

Analogy - If you test several people for how they explain the following examples: 2+2=4, 2+2=11, 2+2=5 and 2+2=?; you will find that people think differently. The same is the case with how different people think about thinking and knowing.

YoursTrue · Sep 24, 2022

Truthseeker said:
No. I don't understand what I described to you has to do would be misunderstood by you so that a case about homosexuality would be put before the UHJ. Whatever is decided at the time involved would be applied by whatever justice system is operation, and that is where the case would be decided.

What penalties are adjudicated by this high court in your religion?

KWED · Sep 24, 2022

Trailblazer said:
These Laws are so good that everyone should be following them, would they but know it.

So you think Bahai laws should be for everyone.

YoursTrue · Sep 24, 2022

mikkel_the_dane said:
Analogy - If you test several people for how they explain the following examples: 2+2=4, 2+2=11, 2+2=5 and 2+2=?; you will find that people think differently. The same is the case with how different people think about thinking and knowing.

That seems to be true.

On the other hand...oh well I won't go on now.

mikkel_the_dane · Sep 24, 2022

Policy said:
Yes. Yes. Yes. You are missing the point. To believe is to accept that something is true or likely true. When people claim to know that are attaching a level of certainty that may or may not be earned.

That is about proposition about what is.

A belief system, while it uses the word belief, is a system of principles by which one thinks one ought to live. While what one believes/knows definitely impacts what one thinks one ought to do, calling knowledge a belief system doesn't make sense.

Well, it is so for you because of how you think. I think differently so to me, it makes sense. It is called cognitive relativism.

ppp · Sep 24, 2022

mikkel_the_dane said:
Analogy - If you test several people for how they explain the following examples: 2+2=4, 2+2=11, 2+2=5 and 2+2=?; you will find that people think differently. The same is the case with how different people think about thinking and knowing.

Sorry. What you are saying is either going past me or above me. It feels like you are taking steps in your thinking that you are not articulating to me. That's okay.

KWED · Sep 24, 2022

Trailblazer said:
Homosexuals don't lose their voting rights unless they are flagrant about their sexuality in public.

Define "flagrant homosexuality".
But you now admit that Bahaism does harm homosexuals - or are you going to claim that disenfranchising someone is not harming them?

If they feel guilty that is on them, not on the Baha'is. They would not feel guilty unless they thought they were doing something wrong.

Not a fan of psychology then?

KWED · Sep 24, 2022

Trailblazer said:
You have heard it, you just don't accept it.

"Cuz god sez!" is not a cogent argument.

Cogent: clear, logical, and convincing.

ppp · Sep 24, 2022

mikkel_the_dane said:
Well, it is so for you because of how you think. I think differently so to me, it makes sense. It is called cognitive relativism.

I am unconvinced. Do you have any interest in convincing me? If you do, then you will have to start on common ground and work me up to your conclusion. If you have no such interest, then this is a good place to stop.

KWED · Sep 24, 2022

Trailblazer said:
I have a funny story for you and all the others reading this. My husband always liked telling this story about his great Aunt. As the story goes, on her wedding night she locked herself in the bathroom and said she was not coming out until his Uncle promised that he would never make her have sex. He promised and they lived happily ever after. The sad part is that she loved children and wanted children but she could not bring herself to do the dirty deed.

After waiting 32 years to have sex, I could not make my husband have sex on our wedding night or for a long time after that. All he wanted to do was watch movies. On my honeymoon, when I called my brother from the pay phone at the motel he told me I should have the marriage annulled, but I have the patience of Job so I decided to work on the issue. We kept the sex therapist in business for a long time and the issue was finally resolved. About three years later when we lived in a condo I got a note on the door to stop making so much noise.

That's sad, not funny.

YoursTrue · Sep 24, 2022

KWED said:
I think you misunderstand their motives. When a marginalised, oppressed group is trying to obtain some measure of equality and justice from a recalcitrant establishment, it will not demand all its ultimate goals at once. "One step at a time", etc
Of course those gay activists in the 70s wanted to be able to marry their parters and have all the same rights as heterosexuals.

Here's something you might understand -- there is an occasion in the Bible where Jesus was in the wilderness for many days. And the Devil approached him and told him he would give him ALL THE KINGDOMS of this world if Jesus would do one act of worship to him. Question--did Jesus accept his offer, and what did it mean that the devil could give Jesus all the kingdoms of this world?
Matthew 4:8, 9 "Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. "All this I will give You,” he said, “if You will fall down and worship me."
Think about it. What did he say he would give Jesus if he would fall down and worship him?

KWED · Sep 24, 2022

Truthseeker said:
I did find this, which I found surprising:

205.11 The view that homosexuality is a condition that is not amenable to change is to be questioned by Bahá’ís. There are, of course, many kinds and degrees of homosexuality, and overcoming extreme conditions is sure to be more difficult than overcoming others. Nevertheless, as noted earlier, the Guardian has stated, that "through the advice and help of doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this handicap."[5]

205.12 The statistics which indicate that homosexuality is incurable are undoubtedly distorted by the fact that many of those who overcome the problem never speak about it in public, and others solve their problems without even consulting professional counselors.
Universal House of Justice, "Messages from the Universal House of Justice: 1986-2001"

However, like Shoghi Effendi, the Universal House of Justice is not considered infallible when it comes to science. They quoted Shoghi Effendi which formed their opinion about this.

Cool. So you accept that Bahaism's attitudes towards "managing" homosexuality are outdated, scientifically incorrect and potentially damaging to the subject.

Now, what about the other quotes calling homosexuality an evil passion, immoral, shameful aberration, handicap, against nature, etc.
Do you similarly reject those?

KWED · Sep 24, 2022

Truthseeker said:
You have a way of casting what we say in the worst possible light.

I am simply examining claims.

Why would the UHJ prescribe the death penalty?

You said...
"in the Book of Laws of Baha'u'llah there is no prescribed penalty for such. It is up to the Universal House of Justice to decide what that is sometime in future."
So, is there anything to prevent the UHJ introducing the death penalty for an offence that is described in the most prejudicial terms in Bahai teachings, an offence that is one of the "evil passions" that the faithful are to "purge from the world"?
Just imagine, if you will, that at some point in the future the UHJ is controlled by a new, literalist group of militant Bahais. They read all those passages with their lurid descriptions, and believe that the "purge the world" is to be taken literally. I'm sure to the moderate, liberal Muslims of 60's Afghanistan, the idea of the Taliban would have seemed impossible.

samtonga43 · Sep 24, 2022

Trailblazer said:
No, what he was optimistic about is that I ever denied anything.

This doesn't make any sense. Do you know what the word 'optimistic' means?

KWED · Sep 24, 2022

Truthseeker said:
Your cynicism is noted.

I was merely pointing out the flaw in your argument. No cynicism intended.

Homosexuality and religious.

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My own religion

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

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Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

My own religion

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Well-Known Member

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Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

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