No. It doesn't. Maths doesn't have objective existence. It exists only as concepts in an individual brain.
If it had objective existence you could indeed show me that photo of an uninstantiated two. But it doesn't and you can't.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Prophecies Jesus failed to fulfill?
- Thread starter Spiderman
- Start date
If it had objective existence you could indeed show me that photo of an uninstantiated two. But it doesn't and you can't.
If twenty carrots exist, and we divide them in two... that exist, it isn't only a concept in the brain; we've made up numerical values to represent it.
We could make up any values, and call that mathematics; yet the sums could be shown universally, and come to similar equations, based on what exists.
Struggled on finding a useful picture of twenty carrots; so here is 5x3+1 = 16 carrots.
In my opinion.
But that's simply acting out your own internal wishes. And all you're showing me with the carrots is instantiations of those wishes ─ YOU chose the SUBJECT and YOU chose the FIELD and YOU brought the concepts of things-to-count and halves and numbering. Without you and your lagomorphic appetites, nothing happens. YOU do all the doing, nature is just the playground.
So, more than ever you need that photo of an uninstantiated two. But I'm happy to be fair about this, I mean, if you only have a photo of an uninstatiated five, that'll do.
Because if the mathematical five exists independently of the concept of it, is found in the world external to the self, is real, then you can indeed take a photo, a video of it.
But if, as I keep pointing out to you, it only exists as a concept, abstraction, notion in individual brains, is not found in objective reality, then you can't take a photo of it, any more than you can take a photo of a real Superman or unicorn. Or god, for that matter.
Having seen the Source of reality in my Near Death Experience, I'd say we could take a picture of God; if we ever had technology advanced enough to see beyond dimensional quantum physics.
That nature is all a quantifiable playground.
In my opinion.
But you didn't see "the source of reality" out there in reality ─ the world external to the self, where you could take a photo of it. You saw it in your mind ─ the same place where you find numbers and other abstractions, and dreams, and concepts with no counterpart in reality.
To be objectively real is to exist out there in nature.
Where photos can be taken.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
If a man can man I pul ate...substance he caused plastic to occur.
Imagine that man causing plastic out of nature substance not plastic.
I'd the man who'd have us all destroyed as he can change natural substance into just being plastic.
Is what you ignore.
Men claiming they know they can change the position of a planned numbering to stop it yet it causes artificial form.
Is a man who says I can do it to a whole planet too if only I can realise it.
I don't think we could live on a plastic earth... What about you?
Imagine that man causing plastic out of nature substance not plastic.
I'd the man who'd have us all destroyed as he can change natural substance into just being plastic.
Is what you ignore.
Men claiming they know they can change the position of a planned numbering to stop it yet it causes artificial form.
Is a man who says I can do it to a whole planet too if only I can realise it.
I don't think we could live on a plastic earth... What about you?
rational experiences
Veteran Member
So men say I have so much proton in mass so much such and such other forms in mass.
Because of mass I can shift mass.
However one carrot is always just one carrot in natural law.
Gluttony greed the mind of life's destroyer on earth.
Because of mass I can shift mass.
However one carrot is always just one carrot in natural law.
Gluttony greed the mind of life's destroyer on earth.
This might be for @Rival , because she produced a list long ago, that was closest to what I am looking for, basically a list of prophecies of the Messiah that Jesus did not fulfill.
World peace and the political office was definitely two, but I'm looking for quotes and verse numbers please.
Also, there is more than one Messiah, because Scripture calls Cyrus the great the "anointed one, the Messiah", he ended Babylonian captivity, and built the temple.
Also, prophecies about the Messiah not damaging a bruised reed, turning the other cheek, being a pacifist, quiet lamb lead to slaughter, contradict other prophecies about the Messiah, that it actually isn't even possible for the prophecies to all be talking about the same person.
Last I read, a contemporary rabbi said there would be a warrior Messiah like Samson, from Dan, and another, the son of David, from Judah, which is why Dan and Judah were called Lions, the two built the temple and tabernacle.
Any feedback you have is appreciated. Thank you.
I think first we must make sure we know what the Messianic prophesies were. We learn that from the undisputed experts on the subject - the Jews who wrote the OT. What we find is that there is no 'long list' of prophesies. There are really less than 10. It's only when we let the gospel authors commit fraud and invent new prophesies that have nothing to do with the Messiah that we get into trouble.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Cyrus the great, in the old testament, was called the Messiah, the anointed one, and he was a polytheist from Iran, who won over the Babylonians when he became King of Babylon, by talking about how much he loved their Gods (which the whore of Babylon in the book of revelation is Inanna, and the Babylonians thought it was extremely holy and sacred to fill their temples with topless or naked girls, who stand in the place of the Mesopotamian Queen of Heaven, and their beauty is to raise their minds to the Goddess of politics, Venus the morning star, beauty, warfare, the lady of victories that soldiers pray to, Goddess of warfare.I think first we must make sure we know what the Messianic prophesies were. We learn that from the undisputed experts on the subject - the Jews who wrote the OT. What we find is that there is no 'long list' of prophesies. There are really less than 10. It's only when we let the gospel authors commit fraud and invent new prophesies that have nothing to do with the Messiah that we get into trouble.
She is supposed to for a time get the world to serve her, get everyone drunk off the wine of her fornication, and it's interesting that in her Scriptures, she calls her Holy Vulva "The boat of Heaven", and she was the original "Lady of victories", and "our lady of victories", celebrates a battle involving boats, where the rosary won the battle, people say, the "Battle that saved the west". So, maybe there will be another Lepanto, the original Lady of Victories, with her "Boat of Heaven" (Das Boot!
)She has many titles of the blessed Virgin Mary, long before the Bible, like "morning star, Queen of Heaven, Lady of victories, shining one, and her title as "Goddess of the moon", is very similar to Mary working her greatest miracle as "our lady of Fatima", Fatima being the Arab moon Goddess, Inanna being the Goddess in the Arab world, Fatima called "Virgin Queen of Heaven", like the Virgin form of Inanna, and the book of revelation speaks of a woman on the moon, clothed with the sun (the miracle of Fatima was called "Miracle of the Sun"), and Fatima is called "source of the sun", so I don't think it was coincidence, Mary said she was "our Lady of Fatima" when she worked her great solar miracle in 1917.
Inanna has many of the vocations of the virgin Mary, and she also had a celibate virgin priesthood, so can see the value in chastity, but was also called "Mother of harlots" (a title for the whore of Babylon), because she had other priestesses that would pay to have sacred ritual intercourse with a clergy girl, and it was a type of holy communion, intimacy with the Queen of Heaven, using her instrument, and turning it into a prayer, a blessing.
So, she can see that different spiritual graces can come from virginity, chastity, but also the opposite, so valuing both is quite ingenious, and she has the most titles of the Virgin Mary, of any Goddess, very fascinating.
When the prophet Jeremiah was sent to tell people to stop burning incense to her (Queen of Heaven), the people refused, because essentially she was nicer to them, provided for them better, and when they gave up devotion to her, bad things always happened, and life became unhappy. She was an Idol who was actually rewarding them, far more than God, making prayer enjoyable, fun, beautiful.
I think a Messiah who brings more of the Divine feminine is most important. Mary got Jesus to work his first miracle, at an inappropriate time, before his hour had come, and he complained, and said her concern about wine running out at a party , is not his concern. But reluctantly, his first miracle was turning water into wine at a party, like the God of wine Dionysus, born of a virgin on Christmas, who gave his flesh and blood to be eaten and drunk in the form of wine, who dies and rises from the dead like Jesus, all before Christ, like he prefigured him or something.
I believe the Virgin Mary, wants a lot of Queens of heaven, Queens confraternity, so what the original Virgin Mary is not permitted to do, that might be the necessary actions to motivate people to good works, someone with Mary's equal beauty and abilities can do what is necessary.
I think they will reluctantly get God to do what he doesn't want to do, intoxicate people , like Mary getting her son to work a miracle before he was ever supposed to, and turn water into the best wine at the party, make religion fun and entertaining, reward people for prayer and good deeds by getting them intoxicated, work miracles (like decide Idolatry and sinful pleasures or euphoria will always be seen as virtuous, if in the end, it is causing a person to be less selfish, and create less suffering in our world, because the reward given, that might seem sinful, is preventing greater evils.
The name Mary means "Rebellious", and Mary told children in her apparitions that the sins of the world were making her son's arm very heavy, and a boy thought it meant her son was beating her. She is always trying to restrain his arm from striking earth with afflictions for sin. If she can get everyone in Heaven to decide that God should submit to the authority of the one who is most humble, merciful, generous, and will end the most suffering, create the most joy, God will realize he needs to surrender.
Cyrus the Great, being a Polytheist who the Jews called their Messiah, who became King of Babylon, and praised the Babylonian Deities, which used female beauty and sexuality, not to degrade women with lust, but as something to bless, praise, venerate as sacred, and place such female Deities as the Chief Deities, Queens, Goddesses of war, politics, law and order, because the religion was so rewarding, that men were willing to sacrifice for the rewards.
If Cyrus the Great could be the Messiah who ends the Babylonian captivity, creates the Temple, and be the only person Jews who aren't Christian converts ever recognize as their Messiah in Scripture, praising the Goddess who is said to be the greatest enemy of God,( and yet he is God's anointed one), it means that God can intentionally raise up someone from the epitome of opposite wrong religion, who is not the ethnicity anyone expects for the role of the expected Messiah.
He can even praise the religions and Deities that God opposes most. That person can be God's instrument, who does a greater service to the Jews than Moses or the Prophets, resembles more of what the Jews want to see in a Messiah than Jesus or any Jew by far, and is rewarded and empowered by God more as a Polytheist Idolater in a false religion, more than any Jew who avoids Idolatry and embraces the correct Religion.
So, God can be full of surprises and break his rules. The greatest public miracles that convert the largest quantities of people, in the last few centuries, are all given to apparitions of a female, Mary, the "Queen of Heaven", Mary.
Jacob fought with God and won, was praised, his name changed to Israel, and he stole his blessing to be Father of the tribes of Israel, because he thought a woman was better than God, or any male superior, had unflinching loyalty to her, telling him to wear his Twin's clothes, lie, steal, deceive, take credit for her gift and work, as if it was his work, and she said that she would take the curse and punishment for his sins on herself.
It was what got him the greatest blessing found in Scripture. The right females, will get God to do what he doesn't want to do, and even bless bad behavior, or work miracles he doesn't want to do. So, I think putting them in charge of God's omnipotence is best, and there should be a whole bunch of Messiahs, like Cyrus, who Jews called Messiah, and He was God's anointed one, with his many gods. There should be gods and goddesses that everyone will find most delightful, and the right Messiahs, so everyone has the one that is just right for them.
Jacob's ability to fight with God and win, and be blessed for lying, stealing, deceiving, and dishonoring his father, Idolatry with a female above God, and physically assaulting God, refusing to let go of God when God asks him to, until God gives him what he wants, it was all blessed, and it was all his special privilege, because he discovered that some women will be far more important and powerful than God, and having unflinching loyalty to them, will make you have license to break many rules, laws, do the forbidden, and even fight with God physically, win, be blessed, and earn the name "Contender with God". It's all in Scripture, and it's because of how much the right female loved him, she becomes more important than God, and he can defeat God. Defeating God and distribution of his graces better, is what will save everyone.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
I think the Divine feminine, female Saints, or Female spirits that existed before the world began, (like wisdom is called a woman in Scripture, crying out in the streets to the foolish), and the version of God that it says woman was created in his image)...I think since God said "the last shall be first, the first shall be last", because his religion has oppressed women so much, they have taken last place, and God has always been thought of as a male, the female version of God is saved for the end times, like Eve created after Adam, She shows up last, and the female mother God actually turns out to be greater, more clever, a masterpiece, and she will do away with the jealous, wrathful, proud, narcissistic, sadistic, scary God, that likes to punish people and make them suffer. None of the prophets knew of it coming, because a surprise and shock is better. Better to not spoil the ending.
As a naked woman, a serpent, and some fruit that alters and enlightens the mind, caused everyone to fall, I believe Mary is called the New Eve, Jesus is the New Adam, and Dan, the tribe of Israel that the Antichrist is supposed to come from, whose symbol is the snake, the dragon, are going to shock everyone, when forbidden fruit , a serpent, a women called "New Eve", causes Heaven and Hell to reach common ground by everyone falling and relating to eachother.
A beautiful naked woman, and a serpent, will do what is forbidden, because God placed enmity between the woman and the serpent, and Mary the New Eve is often seen crushing the serpents head. If they break that enmity , the serpent loves and obeys her, they can be the best team, a shock, a surprise, unite lovers of darkness and light, to work together.
Breaking rules only when it is necessary to eliminate evil, pain, suffering, confusion, injustice, suicides, and show everyone that if pride was the fall of the Devil, than the God who is far more proud than the Devil, should be in Hell with him, and once we are all in Hell together, we figure out how to create Heaven in Hell, so that everyone gets to experience Heaven, all are receiving equal reward, everyone has enough of God's spirit in them, there are no false Gods, and everyone can be someone's Messiah.
The yin and yang axis powers. Light and darkness working together in an alliance.
But, it was when spirits of deceased females who were violently victimized, started telling me to have a female dominant religion, and like Jacob, I will be blessed for doing bad things, because he had the right female Messiah taking the curse and punishment for his sins on herself. She was far more important to obey, even when she said to lie, steal, deceive, cheat, because obedience to her was more important than obedience to God, and Scripture makes that clear.
It's because there will be female entities, that obedience to them telling people to break God's rules, will be best for everyone, including God.
The only Messiah the Jews accepted , was a polytheist, and his name means "of the Sun". Jacob was the sun in Joseph's prophetic dream. Jacob fought with God and won, earning him the name "contender with God". The most unexpected unqualified, shocking solution can be best. The world will be saved, when men who are devoted to the right female entities, become contenders with God, who fight with God, win, restrain his wrath, and let the right females have control of omnipotence. Men will do things for women that no man can get them to do, make the greatest sacrifices, and it is sad that devotion to the Divine feminine has been so oppressed.
There are female entities/spirits who are anointed to rebel in a way that God blesses, like Rebecca for Jacob, or Mary in many of her apparitions, fighting with her son and weeping tears to get him to change his mind about punishing people or damning them to hell. She wanted his first miracle to be one he didn't want to work, getting people more intoxicated at a party, turning water into alcohol, because she was trying to show that she cares about things that he doesn't, like having fun, being intoxicated. It's best to side with her, because the male Deity wants us to become holy through carrying crosses daily, suffering, being tortured. She wants us to find growing in holiness to be fun, much more easy. She and the women in Heaven, prevent many bad consequences from striking their devotees, who have earned punishment with sin. They make growing in virtue a lot more easy, like cheating.
As a naked woman, a serpent, and some fruit that alters and enlightens the mind, caused everyone to fall, I believe Mary is called the New Eve, Jesus is the New Adam, and Dan, the tribe of Israel that the Antichrist is supposed to come from, whose symbol is the snake, the dragon, are going to shock everyone, when forbidden fruit , a serpent, a women called "New Eve", causes Heaven and Hell to reach common ground by everyone falling and relating to eachother.
A beautiful naked woman, and a serpent, will do what is forbidden, because God placed enmity between the woman and the serpent, and Mary the New Eve is often seen crushing the serpents head. If they break that enmity , the serpent loves and obeys her, they can be the best team, a shock, a surprise, unite lovers of darkness and light, to work together.
Breaking rules only when it is necessary to eliminate evil, pain, suffering, confusion, injustice, suicides, and show everyone that if pride was the fall of the Devil, than the God who is far more proud than the Devil, should be in Hell with him, and once we are all in Hell together, we figure out how to create Heaven in Hell, so that everyone gets to experience Heaven, all are receiving equal reward, everyone has enough of God's spirit in them, there are no false Gods, and everyone can be someone's Messiah.
The yin and yang axis powers. Light and darkness working together in an alliance.
But, it was when spirits of deceased females who were violently victimized, started telling me to have a female dominant religion, and like Jacob, I will be blessed for doing bad things, because he had the right female Messiah taking the curse and punishment for his sins on herself. She was far more important to obey, even when she said to lie, steal, deceive, cheat, because obedience to her was more important than obedience to God, and Scripture makes that clear.
It's because there will be female entities, that obedience to them telling people to break God's rules, will be best for everyone, including God.
The only Messiah the Jews accepted , was a polytheist, and his name means "of the Sun". Jacob was the sun in Joseph's prophetic dream. Jacob fought with God and won, earning him the name "contender with God". The most unexpected unqualified, shocking solution can be best. The world will be saved, when men who are devoted to the right female entities, become contenders with God, who fight with God, win, restrain his wrath, and let the right females have control of omnipotence. Men will do things for women that no man can get them to do, make the greatest sacrifices, and it is sad that devotion to the Divine feminine has been so oppressed.
There are female entities/spirits who are anointed to rebel in a way that God blesses, like Rebecca for Jacob, or Mary in many of her apparitions, fighting with her son and weeping tears to get him to change his mind about punishing people or damning them to hell. She wanted his first miracle to be one he didn't want to work, getting people more intoxicated at a party, turning water into alcohol, because she was trying to show that she cares about things that he doesn't, like having fun, being intoxicated. It's best to side with her, because the male Deity wants us to become holy through carrying crosses daily, suffering, being tortured. She wants us to find growing in holiness to be fun, much more easy. She and the women in Heaven, prevent many bad consequences from striking their devotees, who have earned punishment with sin. They make growing in virtue a lot more easy, like cheating.
Cyrus the great, in the old testament, was called the Messiah, the anointed one, and he was a polytheist from Iran, who won over the Babylonians when he became King of Babylon, by talking about how much he loved their Gods (which the whore of Babylon in the book of revelation is Inanna, and the Babylonians thought it was extremely holy and sacred to fill their temples with topless or naked girls, who stand in the place of the Mesopotamian Queen of Heaven, and their beauty is to raise their minds to the Goddess of politics, Venus the morning star, beauty, warfare, the lady of victories that soldiers pray to, Goddess of warfare.
She is supposed to for a time get the world to serve her, get everyone drunk off the wine of her fornication, and it's interesting that in her Scriptures, she calls her Holy Vulva "The boat of Heaven", and she was the original "Lady of victories", and "our lady of victories", celebrates a battle involving boats, where the rosary won the battle, people say, the "Battle that saved the west". So, maybe there will be another Lepanto, the original Lady of Victories, with her "Boat of Heaven" (Das Boot!
She has many titles of the blessed Virgin Mary, long before the Bible, like "morning star, Queen of Heaven, Lady of victories, shining one, and her title as "Goddess of the moon", is very similar to Mary working her greatest miracle as "our lady of Fatima", Fatima being the Arab moon Goddess, Inanna being the Goddess in the Arab world, Fatima called "Virgin Queen of Heaven", like the Virgin form of Inanna, and the book of revelation speaks of a woman on the moon, clothed with the sun (the miracle of Fatima was called "Miracle of the Sun"), and Fatima is called "source of the sun", so I don't think it was coincidence, Mary said she was "our Lady of Fatima" when she worked her great solar miracle in 1917.
Inanna has many of the vocations of the virgin Mary, and she also had a celibate virgin priesthood, so can see the value in chastity, but was also called "Mother of harlots" (a title for the whore of Babylon), because she had other priestesses that would pay to have sacred ritual intercourse with a clergy girl, and it was a type of holy communion, intimacy with the Queen of Heaven, using her instrument, and turning it into a prayer, a blessing.
So, she can see that different spiritual graces can come from virginity, chastity, but also the opposite, so valuing both is quite ingenious, and she has the most titles of the Virgin Mary, of any Goddess, very fascinating.
When the prophet Jeremiah was sent to tell people to stop burning incense to her (Queen of Heaven), the people refused, because essentially she was nicer to them, provided for them better, and when they gave up devotion to her, bad things always happened, and life became unhappy. She was an Idol who was actually rewarding them, far more than God, making prayer enjoyable, fun, beautiful.
I think a Messiah who brings more of the Divine feminine is most important. Mary got Jesus to work his first miracle, at an inappropriate time, before his hour had come, and he complained, and said her concern about wine running out at a party , is not his concern. But reluctantly, his first miracle was turning water into wine at a party, like the God of wine Dionysus, born of a virgin on Christmas, who gave his flesh and blood to be eaten and drunk in the form of wine, who dies and rises from the dead like Jesus, all before Christ, like he prefigured him or something.
I believe the Virgin Mary, wants a lot of Queens of heaven, Queens confraternity, so what the original Virgin Mary is not permitted to do, that might be the necessary actions to motivate people to good works, someone with Mary's equal beauty and abilities can do what is necessary.
I think they will reluctantly get God to do what he doesn't want to do, intoxicate people , like Mary getting her son to work a miracle before he was ever supposed to, and turn water into the best wine at the party, make religion fun and entertaining, reward people for prayer and good deeds by getting them intoxicated, work miracles (like decide Idolatry and sinful pleasures or euphoria will always be seen as virtuous, if in the end, it is causing a person to be less selfish, and create less suffering in our world, because the reward given, that might seem sinful, is preventing greater evils.
The name Mary means "Rebellious", and Mary told children in her apparitions that the sins of the world were making her son's arm very heavy, and a boy thought it meant her son was beating her. She is always trying to restrain his arm from striking earth with afflictions for sin. If she can get everyone in Heaven to decide that God should submit to the authority of the one who is most humble, merciful, generous, and will end the most suffering, create the most joy, God will realize he needs to surrender.
Cyrus the Great, being a Polytheist who the Jews called their Messiah, who became King of Babylon, and praised the Babylonian Deities, which used female beauty and sexuality, not to degrade women with lust, but as something to bless, praise, venerate as sacred, and place such female Deities as the Chief Deities, Queens, Goddesses of war, politics, law and order, because the religion was so rewarding, that men were willing to sacrifice for the rewards.
If Cyrus the Great could be the Messiah who ends the Babylonian captivity, creates the Temple, and be the only person Jews who aren't Christian converts ever recognize as their Messiah in Scripture, praising the Goddess who is said to be the greatest enemy of God,( and yet he is God's anointed one), it means that God can intentionally raise up someone from the epitome of opposite wrong religion, who is not the ethnicity anyone expects for the role of the expected Messiah.
He can even praise the religions and Deities that God opposes most. That person can be God's instrument, who does a greater service to the Jews than Moses or the Prophets, resembles more of what the Jews want to see in a Messiah than Jesus or any Jew by far, and is rewarded and empowered by God more as a Polytheist Idolater in a false religion, more than any Jew who avoids Idolatry and embraces the correct Religion.
So, God can be full of surprises and break his rules. The greatest public miracles that convert the largest quantities of people, in the last few centuries, are all given to apparitions of a female, Mary, the "Queen of Heaven", Mary.
Jacob fought with God and won, was praised, his name changed to Israel, and he stole his blessing to be Father of the tribes of Israel, because he thought a woman was better than God, or any male superior, had unflinching loyalty to her, telling him to wear his Twin's clothes, lie, steal, deceive, take credit for her gift and work, as if it was his work, and she said that she would take the curse and punishment for his sins on herself.
It was what got him the greatest blessing found in Scripture. The right females, will get God to do what he doesn't want to do, and even bless bad behavior, or work miracles he doesn't want to do. So, I think putting them in charge of God's omnipotence is best, and there should be a whole bunch of Messiahs, like Cyrus, who Jews called Messiah, and He was God's anointed one, with his many gods. There should be gods and goddesses that everyone will find most delightful, and the right Messiahs, so everyone has the one that is just right for them.
Jacob's ability to fight with God and win, and be blessed for lying, stealing, deceiving, and dishonoring his father, Idolatry with a female above God, and physically assaulting God, refusing to let go of God when God asks him to, until God gives him what he wants, it was all blessed, and it was all his special privilege, because he discovered that some women will be far more important and powerful than God, and having unflinching loyalty to them, will make you have license to break many rules, laws, do the forbidden, and even fight with God physically, win, be blessed, and earn the name "Contender with God". It's all in Scripture, and it's because of how much the right female loved him, she becomes more important than God, and he can defeat God. Defeating God and distribution of his graces better, is what will save everyone.
Cyrus was only considered to be a candidate for the Messiah as he pledged to rebuilt the Temple. When it was clear he wouldn't, he was summarily rejected by the Jews - just like other frauds before and after him. But cool story.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Cyrus did send the supplies, and it was his efforts that were responsible for the building of the Temple!Cyrus was only considered to be a candidate for the Messiah as he pledged to rebuilt the Temple. When it was clear he wouldn't, he was summarily rejected by the Jews - just like other frauds before and after him. But cool story.
)
Cyrus did send the supplies, and it was his efforts that were responsible for the building of the Temple!
And yet he was not of the line of David, nor did he unite the entire world under Judaism. So he was no more the Messiah than Jesus was, and the Jews knew it.
rosends
Well-Known Member
Sure he was, and the Jews knew it. Mainly they knew it because that's how Isaiah referred to Cyrus (45:1).
But you already know they ultimately rejected him for the reasons cited. It's why the Jews are still waiting for the real Messiah.
rosends
Well-Known Member
No, you don't understand what it means to be called a "messiah". There have been many of them (and a few different types). Jews wait for a future king messiah because that specific one hasn't come yet. This doesn't change the fact that others existed already.
I understand completely. Most kings were anointed and therefore called Messiah. The only Messiah of interest here of course is "The" Messiah. Cyrus failed, Jesus failed, Bar Kochba failed - so Judaism is still waiting for him.
rosends
Well-Known Member
But Cyrus was textually referred to (according to almost all sages) as a messiah. There is nowhere in the text which says he was rejected as a messiah, or that he failed in that role of messiah.
Bar Kochva wasn't a king. He was what would be called a messianic aspirant, but not ever a messiah.
Judaism is still waiting for a future king messiah.
Edit---
here is something to read through
Yeshayahu 45; 1-17: Salvation Through Koresh But From Hashem
Last edited:
No, Judaism is waiting for THE Messiah that will bring the entire world under Judaism.
rosends
Well-Known Member
Judaism is waiting for a specific messiah, but in the meanwhile, while there was any possibility of Jewish autonomy, Jews were waiting for anyone to pick up the mantle and be A messiah which, according to the text, Cyrus did nin enough of a sense for God to use that word in relation to him.