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In the beginning

Papersock

Lucid Dreamer
I like your version, Super Universe, though I can't believe it any more than I can the traditional Adam and Eve story.
 

Aasimar

Atheist
Yep, I just made it up (sarcasm).

Sorry it takes away another reason for you to hate God but then, you can just go back to believing that serpents talk, and God puts trees with the knowledge of good and evil in tempting places, and that God has all these pitiful and strangely very human personality traits.

I was not being sarcastic, I was legitimately asking you what faith this was from or had you come up with it on your own. There are people who don't subscribe to any faith other than what they feel in their hearts.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
What I posted was greatly condensed but it comes from the Urantia Book which you can read free online.

Or you can send me a check for $19.95 and I'll send you a printed version and you also get a souvenier "Elohim - the Original Gangstah's for Jesus" T-shirt.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Shakespeare wrote many wonderful plays involving all sort of interesting characters and their adventures. Many millions of people have read these plays, and although none of these people really believed that the characters and events in Shakespeare's plays actually existed, or occurred, most have found many profound truths within his plays about the nature of human beings and how they live (and die) together.

Now, Shakespeare's plays are written and are commonly presented to us as though they are about actual people and events, occurring, yet no one in the audiences, or who has read the plays on paper, actually believes, or even imagines that they are supposed to believe that the characters and events depicted are "real". We all understand that the characters are characters, and the events are fictional.

So I can't for the life of me understand why people keep insisting that we read stories in the bible as if the characters and events within them actually occurred. Can anyone give me any reason why we should make such an absurd assumption?

And once we drop this foolish pretense of factuality, and read the stories in the various books of the bible as stories, just as we would read any other author's stories, we can then begin to recognize the real truth being conveyed therein, just as the real and deep truths of mankind and of life are so often conveyed to us through the likes of a Shakespeare play or a Cervantes novel. It often happens that fiction can convey far greater truth than any non-fictitious news story could. And the bible authors knew this just as well as anyone else.

So why don't we drop this silly pretense of factuality, that I can't see any reason for us to have held in the first place, and then read the stories the same way we read any story? And then we can discuss the "truths" that we believe are being conveyed to us through the vehicle of storytelling, and through these specific stories.
 

blueman

God's Warrior
Nope, not according to the Bible;

Genisis 1:31 And God saw everything that He had made,and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

God had just got done creating the Universe, and He gave the whole shabang His seal of approval.

Did He miss something?
God did not miss anything, maybe you did by using a single reference in scripture. Ezekial made reference to Satan's fall (Ezekial 28:13-19) and used it as an example in prophecying the fall of King Tyre's reign in Babylon.
 

blueman

God's Warrior
He gave me a path, but he knows what I'm gonna do anyway, so free will is a myth, and I am a puppet in his game. And since he designed every fiber of my being and knew that by presenting me with my exact life I would lead this exact life and end up at whatever result I end up at either implies that everyone ends up choosing right in the end or we are predestined to wherever we are going. So whatever I do is already foreseen and thus is unchangeable, the wheel of fate continues to turn. I hope you picked me out for the happy place and not the sad one :(
But you make the choice, He does not make it for you! Free will is not a farce, it's reality. When doe you stop blaming God and take accountability for your own choices?
 

Aasimar

Atheist
Now, Shakespeare's plays are written and are commonly presented to us as though they are about actual people and events, occurring, yet no one in the audiences, or who has read the plays on paper, actually believes, or even imagines that they are supposed to believe that the characters and events depicted are "real". We all understand that the characters are characters, and the events are fictional.

So I can't for the life of me understand why people keep insisting that we read stories in the bible as if the characters and events within them actually occurred. Can anyone give me any reason why we should make such an absurd assumption?
Because a great many people believe the main character of this story is real. And this book clouds the rationality of so many people that it makes my head spin. There are people in this world who think that a man having sex with another man should be punished. And that you were born evil, and only a being in the sky who condemned his own son to death, made you that way, but since you murdered his son, who isn't really his son but is in fact one of 3 parts of him, you can be forgiven for being born evil, but you have to follow certain special rules. Do I think it's absurd, yeah. But it is true that there are people who believe it, that's why I discussed it. If we all dropped the pretense of factuality, then what would we base Christian faith on? That would imply that billions of people have been living their lives based on a story book. Now I believe that to be true, but does everyone here? I don't think they do.
 

Sahar

Well-Known Member
Here's the part I don't understand. If god created man without knowledge of good and evil, how did we know disobeying him was evil? That's a pretty weak question I know, but if the answer is we did have knowledge and we chose evil, disobedience to god's will was evil, doesn't that just seem like slavery to you?
Adam knew what was good and what was not. The highest degree a believer can reach (according to Islam) is to be a slave of God. If your not God's slave, then your a slave to Shaytan, to your desires, your lust, money, food..etc. It's not even comparable between being a slave of Allah and being a slave of anything or anyone lesser than and inferior to Him (The Most High And the Supreme in His Greatness).
I don't know, it just kinda seems to me like putting a little kid in a room with 1000000 toys, everything he could want to play with, but don't play with the tonka truck in the middle of the room. Of course the kid is gonna play with the tonka truck, he doesn't know any better and you drew his attention too it.
Well...Adam had mind to think with and to know what's wrong and what's not, but actually Shaytan (Satan) managed to deceive Adam with the delusion that he would be an angel or immortal, and Adam obeyed him!! (The same thing happens with every human). If you have the whole Paradise, what else will you want? what this tree will add? Just temptations of Shaytan.
But most importantly Adam learnt that God is the Most merciful and All-Forgiving, he learnt how to repent and Allah forgave him!
God says, you disobeyed me, now you get this terrible punishment.
Even if Adam didn't eat form the tree, he would settle the Earth, in all cases. God's will was to create Adam (the human being) to be his vicegerent on Earth (not in Paradise!).
The whole story of Adam was to know that there are 2 paths, the path of Allah and the path of Shaytan and your free to follow one of them but if you chose Allah's path, then you did choose the shortest path to happiness, if you chose the other path, no one would be loser except you!
I just don't understand. God knows everything, so he knew we would pick evil. But he gave us free will, but it's not really free because he knew what we were going to do, so it was predetermined.
Of course God knows every thing and we have free will too but God's knowledge precede our acts! (God's knowledge and the free will are not contadictory) Yet, God predetermined that Adam would settle Earth!
 

Onan

Member
God did not miss anything, maybe you did by using a single reference in scripture. Ezekial made reference to Satan's fall (Ezekial 28:13-19) and used it as an example in prophecying the fall of King Tyre's reign in Babylon.

Those scriptures are as vague as the serpent in geneses. I would have to say that it was not describing the fall of satan though, because satan was a christian invention. Lucifer, demans, and Satan were not even mentioned in the Torah.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Sorry about jumping into topic so late. Like I always do, I will reply the first post (ie OP) first, before I look at other posts.

Aasimar said:
If god created man without knowledge of good and evil, how did we know disobeying him was evil?
I've asked the same question or something similar to this in previous topics.

My question was like, if Adam and Eve haven't eaten the fruit, then how can they distinguish good and evil from what God or the serpent had told them? If they can't distinguish good from evil, then why did God curse them and then banish them from Eden?

Eve couldn't know the serpent was lying because she hadn't eaten the fruit yet, since she is ignorant of "what is good?" and "what is evil?"

Some of those who believe in Adam's mythos will tell you that God gave them a free will to choose between good and evil. But that's still doesn't make sense, considering you have to eat before fruit first before you can actually decide on one or the other.

Also, if God didn't want them to eat the fruit, then why bother to put the Tree there in the first place. Again, some would answer you that it has to do with free will.

Others would say it is a test.

If God is "all-knowing", then surely he would have known they would fail the test. Why test them if you already know they were going to fail?

The problem with the whole Adam and the Tree scenario, because it can be interpret in so many ways. Some would say it is allegory or symbol. Others would take in literally. And here lies the problem, and both have their pitfall.
 

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
Maybe I'm wrong, Aasimar, but it seems you ar are defining "omniscience" as the ability to know what may in fact be unknowable even to God. This is a possibility, nothing more, but it is to show the futility of establishing parameters for God.

Ever consider that there are “unknowables” just as there are “non-doables,” like making a circular square or white blackness? For instance, God may be aware of everything in the circle of infinity and eternity at any given moment, but who’s to say the circle is fixed? Who’s to say it’s that mechanical? In other words, the circle of infinity and eternity is in a constant state of becoming due to the fact that it is infused with units of free will.

The present, the now, is where the past and its echo from the future intersect creating an interference pattern we call "universe." The past is modified by units of free will as it passes through the now, thus the future is constantly changing and so, too, is its echo. But the future’s echo now doesn’t stop where it meets with the past, but continues on its path to reshape the past. In this way, the whole sphere of the space-time continuum is constantly changing in unpredictable ways, even for God.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Sorry about jumping into topic so late. Like I always do, I will reply the first post (ie OP) first, before I look at other posts.


I've asked the same question or something similar to this in previous topics.

My question was like, if Adam and Eve haven't eaten the fruit, then how can they distinguish good and evil from what God or the serpent had told them? If they can't distinguish good from evil, then why did God curse them and then banish them from Eden?

Eve couldn't know the serpent was lying because she hadn't eaten the fruit yet, since she is ignorant of "what is good?" and "what is evil?"

Some of those who believe in Adam's mythos will tell you that God gave them a free will to choose between good and evil. But that's still doesn't make sense, considering you have to eat before fruit first before you can actually decide on one or the other.

Also, if God didn't want them to eat the fruit, then why bother to put the Tree there in the first place. Again, some would answer you that it has to do with free will.

Others would say it is a test.

If God is "all-knowing", then surely he would have known they would fail the test. Why test them if you already know they were going to fail?

The problem with the whole Adam and the Tree scenario, because it can be interpret in so many ways. Some would say it is allegory or symbol. Others would take in literally. And here lies the problem, and both have their pitfall.
These are all excellent question. But I think it's important to understand the way these scriptural stories were used, originally. The people who used these stories, originally, did not read them looking for one logical answer. They used them to represent a collection of questions, that they would then discuss and debate among themselves, and within themselves. And it was through this discussion and debating and internal wrangling with all the same questions that you have asked, that they work out their relationship and understanding (what they can have of it) with their God. This was the purpose of their stories: to generate an interactive and on-going idea of "God".

The people who collected and wrote down these stories understood that God is a mystery to them. They understood this so thoroughly that they would not even apply a name to their concept of "God" because they felt that to do so would be to imply that God was something they could "know", and label. So instead, they referred to God using terms like "the God that is beyond all understanding", etc.

So when they wrote and read and discussed those bible stories, they did not presume to find such "answers" within them. And instead, their stories collected and passed on their questions. And this is exactly what you are perceiving as you read them. The whole purpose of the story of Eden is to get us to ask the very questions that you are asking, and to then discuss and debate and argue and wrangle with these questions, as human beings, because this keeps our minds focussed on our relationship with God (a relationship that they did not presume to ever "figure out" or understand).

Regarding the behavior of the humans in the story, this we can understand, because we are humans, ourselves. So the depiction of the human characters can tell us a lot abut how the biblical authors saw themselves, and each other, and how they understood the consequences of their own human nature. And that is all in the story. But as to the reasoning and nature of "God", we aren't going to be given any answers, there, because the authors did not presume to have any. What they had were questions, that they wrangled with all their lives, and that they passed on to us.

In the story of eden, God seems to have us caught in a "catch-22", I agree. And as a result, we were bound to fall short and suffer the consequences. But this is how it is with anyone who believes in an omni-God. That God can't have been wrong, so we must have been. Yet because we are so profoundly ignorant of the nature and purpose of our own existence, how could we not have failed to recognize fulfill the purpose of our own existence? These are questions that people still ask, today, as they search for meaning and purpose in life. And they're questions that none of us can answer, theist or non-theist alike.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
That is impossible. You cannot know everything but not know what I'm going to do. And if he knows I'm gonna disobey him in advance and he still punishes me because he made me this way then he's in no way worthy of my worship, he's a sadist.
Free will/omniscience coexistance is possible if the omniscience is a product of omnipresence.

but anyway, on topic:

I don't believe they knew it was evil, just that it went against God's command.

I have no idea about angelic free will...
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Free will/omniscience coexistance is possible if the omniscience is a product of omnipresence.

but anyway, on topic:

I don't believe they knew it was evil, just that it went against God's command.
I agree; that was the beginning (creation) of sin
I have no idea about angelic free will...

Well, from :- http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/faq_a.shtml
Do angels have a free will as we do here on earth?

Satan's rebellion is proof that angels had free will. Since God does not change, we know that such remains to be the case.(which seems to make sense)
 

jhavali

New Member
Before answering these questions, consider the implications of predestination. If this doctrine were true, it would mean that God foreknew all that would result from his creating man—the deflection of Adam and Eve, the wars, the crime, the immorality, the oppression, the lying, the hypocrisy, the disease. By speaking the words, "Let us make man," then, God deliberately would have been setting all this wickedness in motion! (Genesis 1:26) God’s placing before Adam and Eve the prospect of everlasting life would, therefore, have been a sham. So would the Bible’s invitation, "Let anyone that wishes take life’s water free."—Revelation 22:17.
But the Bible says that Jehovah is a God "abundant in loving-kindness and truth." (Exodus 34:6) He would never offer something he knew that it was impossible for one to obtain. Jesus Christ asked: "Who is the man among you whom his son asks for bread—he will not hand him a stone, will he? . . . Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?" (Matthew 7:9-11) Furthermore, if God long ago foreordained precisely who would gain eternal salvation and who would be eternally destroyed, why does the Bible say that "Jehovah . . . is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance"?—2 Peter 3:9.
Predestination, therefore, runs counter to what the Bible actually teaches about God. ‘But would not limiting God’s knowledge of the future undermine his almightiness?’ you might ask. Not at all. At Titus 1:2, for example, we learn that "God . . . cannot lie." But does this undermine God’s almightiness? No, rather, it highlights God’s truthfulness.​
The apostle Paul counseled Christians endowed with the gift of prophecy: "Gifts of the spirit of the prophets are to be controlled by the prophets. For God is a God, not of disorder, but of peace." (1 Corinthians 14:32, 33) Such prophets would not speak out indiscriminately but would share their prophetic messages in an orderly way. To do this, self-control was needed. Certainly, then, God is also able to use his foreknowledge selectively, using it only when there is a reason or a purpose for doing so.—Compare Genesis 22:1, 12.
 
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