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Koran:...Jesus is the Son...

Apple Pie

Active Member
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This ayah proves nothing for your position.

It proves everything for our position.

Since you can't be bothered with the Arabic...how exactly would you even know...?:rolleyes:


It certainly doesn't prove that Allah has a son.

Just as in 4.171...it clearly defines Jesus as the Son.

Period.




AND "THEY" SAID: Allah has taken a son.

Now you are getting it...




Now get this....All the rest is stating that ALL in the heavens and the earth submitt to his will.



To Jesus' Will.




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Eaxctly my point. You have to stop proving it for me. 2.116 in conjunction with 2.117 is in reference to Allah. ALL that is in the heavens and the earth submitts to will of Allah. Even the bible confirms that God is the creator of the heavens and the earth.


Not quite.

2.116 & 2.117 are in reference to Jesus (i.e. the Word)...as He is specifically called-out to be the Word....just as He is in 4.171.

Further, these creation ex-nihilo ayahs have the Son as the Subject matter...just as they do in the Holy Bible from which they are copied from...

You could not have brought any better examples for our case.





The Bible and the Quran are in agreement when they state God as simply saying "be" and so it is.

Gen. 1:1, 1:3, 1:6, 1:9, 1:14

What would you expect since the authors of the Koran copied from the Holy Bible.:rolleyes:






3:59
Truly, the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, 'Be,' and he was.


Show us key Arabic word that states that Jesus was Created.

Good luck...
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
It proves everything for our position.

Since you can't be bothered with the Arabic...how exactly would you even know...?:rolleyes:

It's as clear as the nose on ones face. You have a hard time seeing it because you are under the belief that GOD and Jesus are ONE GOD. This is YOUR BELIEF...This isn't true to those that see that God and Jesus are not one in the same.

Look, it's ok for YOU to think or believe this. You and people like you will be hard pressed to change the minds of those who don't see it from your point of view.



Now you are getting it...

Nope...You still don't get it.


And "THEY" said......is referring to the people who say Allah has a son. It's not speaking of anything else.

The people said that Allah has a son. The position of the Quran is clear in stating..over and over and over...that Allah has no son and the people should not say this...but all that is in heaven and earth belong to Allah and everything submitts to the will of Allah.

Let's look.

(Arberry Translation)
2:116
And THEY say, 'God has taken to Him a son. Glory be to Him! Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth; all obey His will --

Now pay close attention because the Quran repeats this so that you get the point...just in case you didn't get it already.


10:68
THEY say, 'God has taken to Him a son. Glory be to Him! He is All-sufficient; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; you have no authority for this. What, do you say concerning God that you know not?



18:4
and to WARN THOSE WHO SAY, 'God has taken to Himself a son';


19:88, 89, 91,92
And THEY say, 'The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son.
You have indeed advanced something hideous!
that THEY have attributed to the All-merciful a son;
and it behoves not the All-merciful to take a son.


:beach:
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
To Jesus' Will.

Unfortunately Jesus, as described in the Quran, did not have the power as you believe he had. Everything Jesus did was by the permission of Allah.

(Arberry Translation)
When God said, 'Jesus Son of Mary, remember My blessing upon thee and upon thy mother, when I confirmed thee with the Holy Spirit, to speak to men in the cradle, and of age; and when I taught thee the Book, the Wisdom, the Torah, the Gospel; and when thou createst out of clay, by My leave, as the likeness of a bird, and thou breathest into it, and it is a bird, by My leave; and thou healest the blind and the leper by My leave, and thou bringest the dead forth by My leave; and when restrained from thee the Children of Israel when thou camest unto them with the clear signs, and the unbelievers among them said, "This is nothing but sorcery manifest."

5:114
Said Jesus son of Mary, 'O God, our Lord, send down upon us a Table out of heaven, that shall be for us a festival, the first and last of us, and a sign from Thee. And provide for us; Thou art the best of providers.'

If Jesus is God then he would have no need to ask....One of God's powers' is to simply say "BE" and so it is. As we can clearly see here Jesus did not posses this ability because he was not God. he wasn't even a "god".....

5:116
And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?' He said, 'To Thee be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, Thou knowest it, knowing what is within my soul, and I know not what is within Thy soul; Thou knowest the things unseen


This clearly shows that Allah and Jesus are not the same. Thus they are seperate. There is nothing there to show "Jesus' Will." Anything that Jesus did was by permission of Allah..Thus Jesus...submitted to will of Allah.


Not quite.

2.116 & 2.117 are in reference to Jesus (i.e. the Word)...as He is specifically called-out to be the Word....just as He is in 4.171.

Just because the Quran mentions the word ("word") doesn't mean it has anything to do with Jesus.

(Arberry Translation)
9:40
If you do not help him, yet God has helped him already, when the unbelievers drove him forth the second of two, when the two were in the Cave, when he said to his companion, 'Sorrow not; surely God is with us.' Then God sent down on him His Shechina, and confirmed him with legions you did not see; and He made the word of the unbelievers the lowest; and God's word is the uppermost; God is All-mighty, All-wise.

9:74
They swear by God that they said nothing, but they indeed said the word of unbelief and disbelieved, after they had surrendered. They purposed what they never attained to, and they took revenge only that God enriched them, and His Messenger, of His bounty. So if they repent it will be better for them; if they turn away, God will chastise them with a painful chastisement in this world and the next; on the earth they have no protector or helper.

As you read the surrounding ayahs you discover none of this has anything to do with Jesus.


Again, as you can see 2:117 is in referrence to Allah's word ("BE") and so it is.

2:117
The Creator of the heavens and the earth; and when He decrees a thing, He but says to it 'Be,' and it is.

We know that Allah, not Jesus, is the creator of the heavens and earth (universe). This is proven by 3:47. Allah is the creator of the heavens and the earth and everything belongs to him. This is further proven in 5:18, 6:1, 6:73. 7:54 and so on and so on and so on.....


5:18 (in part)
For to God belongs the kingdom of the heavens and of the earth, and all that is between them


6:1
Praise belongs to God who created the heavens and the earth and appointed the shadows and light; then the unbelievers ascribe equals to their Lord.


7:54 (in part)
Surely your Lord is God, who created the heavens and the earth



(Arberry Translation)
3:47
'Lord,' said Mary, 'how shall I have a son seeing no mortal has touched me?' 'Even so,' God said, God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing He does but say to it "Be," and it is.


3:59
Truly, the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, 'Be,' and he was.


6:73
It is He who created the heavens and the earth in truth; and the day He says 'Be', and it is; His saying is true, and His is the Kingdom the day the Trumpet is blown; He is Knower of the Unseen and the visible; He is the All-wise, the All-aware.


19:35
It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing, He but says to it 'Be,' and it is


36:82
His command, when He desires a thing, is to say to it 'Be,' and it is.


40:68
It is He who gives life, and makes to die; and when He decrees a thing, He but says to it 'Be,' and it is.


Further, these creation ex-nihilo ayahs have the Son as the Subject matter...just as they do in the Holy Bible from which they are copied from...

You could not have brought any better examples for our case.

What would you expect since the authors of the Koran copied from the Holy Bible.:rolleyes:

Ok, I see we're back to conspiracy theory again I see.

Show us key Arabic word that states that Jesus was Created.
Good luck...


(Arberry Translation)
3:47
'Lord,' said Mary, 'how shall I have a son seeing no mortal has touched me?' 'Even so,' God said, God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing He does but say to it "Be," and it is.

yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonQalat rabbi anna yakoonu leewaladun walam yamsasnee basharun qala kathaliki Allahuyakhluqu ma yashao itha qada amranfa-innamau

3:59
Truly, the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, 'Be,' and he was.

Inna mathala AAeesa AAinda Allahikamathali adama khalaqahu min turabin thumma qalalahu kun fayakoonu

As we see from 3:47 to 3:59 it is in reference to Jesus and further more it shows Jesus as being created.


:beach:
 

Apple Pie

Active Member
3:59
Truly, the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, 'Be,' and he was.

Inna mathala AAeesa AAinda Allahikamathali adama khalaqahu min turabin thumma qalalahu kun fayakoonu

As we see from 3:47 to 3:59 it is in reference to Jesus and further more it shows Jesus as being created.

Your googled response is not even close.


إن مثل عيسى عند الله كمثل ءادم خلقه من

تراب ثم قال له كن فيكون




Inna mathala AAeesa AAinda Allahi kamathali adama khalaqahu min turabin thumma qala lahu kun fayakoonu

3.59 Certainly Jesus' similitude with“allah”, as/like Adam, He created him out of dust then said to him: "Be thou." so (he) is.




The message behind the rendering:

• Two comparisons are made “mathalu” & “kamathali”
• The first (former) comparison is between Jesus and “allah”
• Jesus is shown to be co-equal “mathalu” with “allah”
• Jesus is shown to have always existed “inna” with “inda” “allah”
• Jesus was not created
• The second (latter) comparison is redundant to the former
• The second comparison describes the creation “khalaqahu” of Adam
• It is referring to man…not to Jesus
• It is singular
• It refers to the act of measuring; or determining the measure, proportion, or the like, of a thing; and the making a thing by measure, or according to the measure of another thing; or proportioning a thing to another thing
• The originating or producing a thing after a pattern or model which one has devised, not after the similitude of anything pre-existing.
• As meaning the bringing into existence from a state of no-existence. As an act of God, signifies the creating out of nothing
• We are told that Adam was created, i.e. he had a beginning (out of nothing), in the likeness of his creator
• Adam is made from dust “turabin”
• The creation of man in this ayah is rooted in sura 86…which shares the same root as “turabin”
• The Word of “allah” brings forth Adam
• The Word i.e. Jesus is co-equal with “allah”
• Man is created through Jesus
• Jesus is God
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Your googled response is not even close.


إن مثل عيسى عند الله كمثل ءادم خلقه من

تراب ثم قال له كن فيكون




Inna mathala AAeesa AAinda Allahi kamathali adama khalaqahu min turabin thumma qala lahu kun fayakoonu

3.59 Certainly Jesus' similitude with“allah”, as/like Adam, He created him out of dust then said to him: "Be thou." so (he) is.

Aainda translated as (with) can mean multiple things in the english language.

It could also mean (in regards to) as defined by The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition


3:59
Truly, the likeness of Jesus, in regards to God, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, 'Be,' and he was.

Your translation isn't really all that different than the others. The only thing that makes your's different is the way you try break it down to fit your idea of Jesus being God.


The message behind the rendering:

• Jesus is shown to be co-equal “mathalu” with “allah”

Yeah....ok....you're way off here. The Quran says Allah has no partners. Try again.

(Arberry Translation)
17:111
And say: 'Praise belongs to GOD HAS NOT TAKEN A SON, and who has not any associate in the Kingdom, nor any protector out of humbleness.' And magnify Him with repeated magnificats.

Not only does this verse say Allah has no son.......it also says.......he has no associates in the kingdom.

This one is well after 3:59. The quran does this a lot. The point is illustrated over and over and over again. Why you are having such difficulty
with this I don't know. Can you share?

• Jesus was not created

Sorry, Quran says he was.

(Arberry Translation)
3;47
'Lord,' said Mary, 'how shall I have a son seeing no mortal has touched me?' 'Even so,' God said, God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing He does but say to it "Be," and it is.
 

Apple Pie

Active Member

Aainda translated as (with) can mean multiple things in the english language.

It could also mean (in regards to) as defined by The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition


Rotflol...:thud:

You don't define classic Arabic with a modern English dictionary.

You downloaded Lane's Lexicon...now use it...





3:59
Truly, the likeness of Jesus, in regards to God, is as Adam's likeness;He created him of dust, then said He unto him, 'Be,' and he was.

Your translation isn't really all that different than the others. The only thing that makes your's different is the way you try break it down to fit your idea of Jesus being God.

Now you see for yourself that the outward English renderings are nothing without an exegesis to back it up.

You can see that we provide an exegesis for our final rendering.

You do not....nor can you...nor can you even google one from the web...

You have nothing.






Yeah....ok....you're way off here. The Quran says Allah has no partners. Try again.

(Arberry Translation)
17:111
And say: 'Praise belongs to GOD HAS NOT TAKEN A SON, and who has not any associate in the Kingdom, nor any protector out of humbleness.' And magnify Him with repeated magnificats.

Not only does this verse say Allah has no son.......it also says.......he has no associates in the kingdom.


You don't know Arabic....thus, how would you even know right from wrong...?

Keep googling...


Sorry, Quran says he was.

(Arberry Translation)
3;47
'Lord,' said Mary, 'how shall I have a son seeing no mortal has touched me?' 'Even so,' God said, God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing He does but say to it "Be," and it is.

Where's the Arabic.....lol....
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony


Rotflol...:thud:

You don't define classic Arabic with a modern English dictionary.

You downloaded Lane's Lexicon...now use it...

I sure can. And I did. It was so easy and after I did it....It still proved my point.

(Arberry Translation)
3:59
Truly, the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, 'Be,' and he was.



3:59
Truly, the likeness of Jesus, in regards to God, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, 'Be,' and he was.

3:59
Truly, the likeness of Jesus, concerning God, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, 'Be,' and he was.

"Apple Pie, with me, you will be hard pressed to change my mind."

Now ofcourse this doesn't mean that you are with me in any way. It means (in regards to me or concerning me.....)

Now you see for yourself that the outward English renderings are nothing without an exegesis to back it up.

Have you done this with your "Holy Bible?" I find it hypocritical for those to scrutanize another persons' way of life if they haven't done it with their own.


You can see that we provide an exegesis for our final rendering.

You do not....nor can you...nor can you even google one from the web...

You have nothing.

You appear to be upset. Do you want to talk about it? Did you find out the truth using your lexicon to decipher 3:47. You probably discovered you couldn't change the meaning to anything else but Allah creates what he will. Thus it shows in that Ayah he created Jesus. And obviously this ayah comes before 3:59....Thus Allah created Jesus

It's not my problem you can't except the fact that the Quran states Allah has no son and no partner in the kingdom.

Use your lexicon to try and break down ALL the ayahs that say Allah has not taken a son. He has no associates in the kingdom. He has not taken a son. Try your hardest to make them say Allah (has) a son.

You can't...You have nothing else....

pulling out ayahs that say (THEY SAY)...won't convince anyone that Jesus is the son of Allah. If you do this then you, as I've said before, are taking it out of context. All the other ayahs telling you that THE PEOPLE SAY......

I'm quite sure you can or have found them all. Now show some convincing evidence that the ayahs that say Allah has no son to actually say that he does.

I challenge you to find me JUST ONE accredited scholar who can take ALL of the ayahs that say Allah has no son to prove those ayahs to be translated incorrectly. I don't care if he or she is tranlating from the classic arabic or the modern arabic.

This is your challenge. Let's see if you are up to it. I suspect you will fail this challenge.

good luck........
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
And there is no doubt in my mind that the verse in question 171 reiterates the divinity of Jesus.


4:171 does not show ANY devinity of Jesus. The one mainstream scholar Apple Pie cited was a credited scholar who translated the Quran using the same lexicon Apple Pies uses and NO WHERE in that scholars translation is it showing any devinity of Jesus, that Jesus is the son of God or that he was God.

NONE of the ayahs of the Quran state any of this. It is simply mistranslation and misunderstanding of the Quran by Apple Pie and people like him. He has a long history moving from forum to forum with the same nonsense. Becareful of jumping on his band wagon.

His challenge was to find ALL of the ayahs that say Allah has no son, that Allah has no partners in the kingdom etc. and for him to use his lexicon to prove that ALL of them have been translated incorrectly. Pulling out a piece of a Quranic quote to fit a theory when the rest of the Quran states it differently is taking what is being said...out of context.

As you can see I have not heard back from him as of yet and it's been a few days now. Truthfuly, the lexicon can only be used to show the contrary. Allah has no son, he has no partners, Jesus was created and Jesus is not God. The is what the Quran shows.

This thread was not, necessarily, putting the bible on display. It was started by Apple Pie to show that Jesus was the son of God. This has been refuted by the surrounding ayahs that say he is not. Additionally, I showed over and and over again that the Quran shows that Jesus was not God and anything Jesus did he did with God's permission.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
4:171 does not show ANY devinity of Jesus. The one mainstream scholar Apple Pie cited was a credited scholar who translated the Quran using the same lexicon Apple Pies uses and NO WHERE in that scholars translation is it showing any devinity of Jesus, that Jesus is the son of God or that he was God.

NONE of the ayahs of the Quran state any of this. It is simply mistranslation and misunderstanding of the Quran by Apple Pie and people like him. He has a long history moving from forum to forum with the same nonsense. Becareful of jumping on his band wagon.

His challenge was to find ALL of the ayahs that say Allah has no son, that Allah has no partners in the kingdom etc. and for him to use his lexicon to prove that ALL of them have been translated incorrectly. Pulling out a piece of a Quranic quote to fit a theory when the rest of the Quran states it differently is taking what is being said...out of context.

As you can see I have not heard back from him as of yet and it's been a few days now. Truthfuly, the lexicon can only be used to show the contrary. Allah has no son, he has no partners, Jesus was created and Jesus is not God. The is what the Quran shows.

This thread was not, necessarily, putting the bible on display. It was started by Apple Pie to show that Jesus was the son of God. This has been refuted by the surrounding ayahs that say he is not. Additionally, I showed over and and over again that the Quran shows that Jesus was not God and anything Jesus did he did with God's permission.

If the Qu'ran states as you aver that Jesus is not divine then the Qu'ran is not the word of God because it contradicts the Bible.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
If the Quran states as you aver that Jesus is not divine then the Qu'ran is not the word of God because it contradicts the Bible.

You mis-quote me. What I said was 4:171 does not show ANY divinity. I never said Jesus wasn't divine at all. I've said that any and everything Jesus did was by leave of Allah as is stated in the Quran, as is stated in the Bible.

Divine in what way?
Divine as being God in the flesh?
Divine as being God the father, God the son, God the holy spirit?

The quran is against these theories. The Quran clearly shows that Jesus was granted more power than any other messenger. Again, grated the power. Not, possessed the power to...

We can go back and forth using the bible to show that he was or he wasn't God the father, or the paternal son of God by our interpretations. This has been done. It's being done on a few other threads here.

The Quran does a great job confirming the scriptures before it. It mentions and gives great respect to those books and the messengers who brought them to the people. So, in my opinion, the Quran doesn't contradict OT or the Injeel.

The only thing you can remotely consider as a contradiction are the accounts concerning the death of Jesus in the NT. It is the position of the writers of the NT that Jesus was crucified but it is the position of the Quran that he wasn't. That would be a subject for another thread.

Again, 4:171 does not show the divinity of Jesus. Verses before and after it show that all the divinity is to Allah. The Quran shows that any divinity that Jesus possessed was granted to him by Allah.

The main subject of the thread was to show that Jesus is the son of God using verse 4:171. This is not the case because accredited scholars, even those that used E.W. Lane's Lexicon, translate ALL of the quran to say Allah HAS NO SON or ASSOCIATE in the kingdom.

After pulling out verse after verse after verse they have gone unchallenged. This is because Apple Pie and the rest of his clan know that using that Lexicon (E.W. Lane) will not allow them to change the Arabic to fit their theory. Whether it is classical or modern Arabic they will not be able to take any of the other verses that state that (Allah has no son), (Allah has no associates)....to say the contrary.

If one can not do it then the assertion made by Apple Pie in regards to 4:171 is void and my position stands firm.....He took it out of context, he mistranslated it, and he misunderstood it.
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
If the Qu'ran states as you aver that Jesus is not divine then the Qu'ran is not the word of God because it contradicts the Bible.
The bible says it also in Number 23:19 for god is not a man that he should sin neither is god the son of man that he shall have to repent.

And where does the bible say it is the word of God?

so if God cannot be man then what is Jesus?
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
The bible says it also in Number 23:19 for god is not a man that he should sin neither is god the son of man that he shall have to repent.

And where does the bible say it is the word of God?

so if God cannot be man then what is Jesus?

Now that is AWSOME....I'm going to have to start using that verse now. It, to me, is the be all to end all when people try to make Isa out to be God or a god. I think the religious community either missed that one like I did or they are simply ignoring it.

God is not a man......!!!!!!

The bible says it. Now we have to sit back and see if the rest of the world will change their own minds after reading this.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The bible says it also in Number 23:19 for god is not a man that he should sin neither is god the son of man that he shall have to repent.

And where does the bible say it is the word of God?

so if God cannot be man then what is Jesus?

Jesus is God in the flesh. There is a Christian creed that says that Jesus is fully man but that is unprovable and it would exorcise any belief in the divinity of Jesus even though the creed says otherwise. The creed also states that Jesus is fully God but that is impossible also because God inhabits the whole universe not just a human body. However since God is undivided (one) God is available just as much in Jesus as He is in any part of the universe.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Sounds like proselytizing to me, by calling someone elses religion wrong and yours right.

I never stated that it was wrong for the Qu'ran to not be the word of God. If you had read earlier you might have seen that I do believe that the Qu'ran is the word of God. I would further state that I believe both scriptures are in harmony because they have the same author.

Dre: in 171 Jesus is a spirit from God. One would not say that about man because man is not from God but created by Him. Also in 171 Jesus is the Word which is inseparable from God as is explained in John 1.
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Jesus is God in the flesh. There is a Christian creed that says that Jesus is fully man but that is unprovable and it would exorcise any belief in the divinity of Jesus even though the creed says otherwise.
Is this creed in the bible? If it is not then how is it an authority in your religion. If there is no basis for it from scripture itself how do you validate it. Please explain this creed within the context of the verse I gave you. Please explain how He is god in flesh, yet the book you claim to be from God is saying otherwise.

The creed also states that Jesus is fully God but that is impossible also because God inhabits the whole universe not just a human body. However since God is undivided (one) God is available just as much in Jesus as He is in any part of the universe.
And there are Christian groups now that reject this creed for there is no basis for it in scripture.

what is an authority in your religion. Allah, Jesus, who else. And who gave them this authority. Did Paul have the authority. Does the bible ever say to take the testimony of a Pharisee. What did Jesus say. Did Jesus state this creed about himself? did He tell the disciples this? where is the evidence for this. Pick any bible I do not care. Find one place in the bible where Jesus says he is God. The bible says in Numbers 23:19 That God is not a man nor a son of man.

So Muffled are you telling me this creed has more authority then the bible itself. is this not what christians call the word of God. God is telling you in his book you claim to be from him that he cannot be a man EVER. A man is a created thing, Allah is the Creator hence can never be created. So who is the authority in the relgion, the one who authored the bible or the one who authored the creed.
 
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