Prophecies Jesus failed to fulfill?

blü 2 · Sep 15, 2022

wizanda said:
I'd say having studied Biblical prophecy for the last 20 years, people who put forward this same argument are not being rational; as I believe they have to dismiss or haven't even looked at a majority of the Bible prophecy, to put forward claims like it.

In the bible there is not one purported prophecy that is even vaguely persuasive evidence of supernatural foreknowledge.

Outside the bible there are equally none.

There isn't even any hypothesis expressed in falsifiable terms as to how supernatural foreknowledge could exist.

But there's abundant evidence of the use of "prophecy" for political ends. In modern times the Zionists used it, you'll recall.

Or for counterexample, since the Tanakh God promised [his] people they'd rule from Egypt to Mesopotamia, and those regions are now solidly Muslim, Christians should readily admit that the Muslims are God's chosen people according to the Tanakh, and Christians aren't.

wizanda said:
I agree that after Babylon the Rabbinic Rebels became Henotheists, worshipping Hashem as being the godhead; yet the Bible wasn't always Canaanite, they originally had a similar theology to the Dharma.

The bible is henotheist from the start:

Exodus 15:11 Who is like thee, O Lord, among the gods?

Exodus 20:3 You shall have no other gods before me.

Numbers 33:4 upon their gods also the Lord executed judgments.

Deuteronomy 5:7 You shall have no other gods before me.

Judges 11:23 So the Lord, the God of Israel, dispossessed the Amorites from before his people Israel; and are you to take possession of them? 24 Will you not possess what Chemosh your god gives you to possess? And all that the Lord our God has dispossessed before us, we will possess.

Psalms 82:1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment.

Psalms 86:8 There is none like thee among the gods, O Lord,

Psalms 95:3 For the Lord is a great god,
and a great King above all gods.

Psalms 135:5 For I know that the Lord is great;
and that our Lord is above all gods.

And so on

wizanda said:
According to scripture lots of people came with palm branches, singing Hosanna as he entered Jerusalem (Matthew 21:9);

Gotta love the author of Matthew's image of Jesus triumphantly entering Jerusalem seated across a donkey and a foal! Of course what he's doing is making sure his version of Jesus complies with the things in the Tanakh he likes to think are prophecies, and here he's making sure his Jesus "fulfills prophecy" in Zechariah 9.9. He also
─ requires Mary to be a virgin because the LXX in translating Isaiah 7:14 rendered Hebrew 'almah, young woman, as Greek parthenos, virgin;
─ invented the unhistoric 'Taxation Census' story to get Jesus to be born in Bethlehem to “fulfill” Micah 5:2
─ invented the unhistoric 'Massacre of the Innocents' story to get Jesus into Egypt to “fulfill” Hosea 11.1.

But all the gospel writers do much the same thing, moving their version of Jesus through their homegrown list of "prophecies".

They do come in handy for historians, though. One of several reasons we can date the first gospel, Mark, to 75 CE or later is that its author has Jesus foretell the destruction of Jerusalem, which happened in 70 CE.

wizanda said:
it was the corrupt religious leaders who rejected him, and then made up lots of religious texts after, to try to cover up their actions against the Messiah.

As I said, and as you haven't addressed, no ordinary Jewish citizen would recognize Jesus as a messiah, since he was neither a civil, military nor religious leader of the Jews nor anointed by the Jewish priesthood; and contrary to the very reason why a messiah was yearned for, he advocated cuddling up to the Romans instead of expelling them and restoring Jewish autonomy.

And his gift to Judaism was two thousand years of rapacious and often murderous antisemitism. Some messiah!

blü 2 · Sep 15, 2022

1213 said:
How do you know those things didn’t happen before Jesus came back from the grave?

Because there's no sign of them anywhere. Indeed I'm not aware of any Christian sect who teaches that the Kingdom had already happened before the crucifixion.

1213 said:
That came true few days later as told in Matt. 17:1-3.

You and I must seriously disagree, then, on what the promises were.

Redemptionsong · Sep 16, 2022

Subduction Zone said:
Yes, but even more important can you provide any evidence at all that it is real? What theist never seem to understand is that their supernatural beliefs need strong evidence. A weak attempt at a rebuttal of the evidence that shows them to be wrong is a failure on their part.

What year roughly was Jesus born?

You know very well that l believe the Bible to be a revelation from God. IMO, the truth lies in the words spoken by the prophets.

Not all the things revealed by inspiration of God are without physical evidence. Much of the Bible is a record of historical events that act as a framework on which to hang wisdom and spiritual revelation, all of which ultimately points to Christ.

It should be obvious to any casual observer that lsrael is a mine of archaeological treasures, all of which tell an historical story. Only a fool would suggest that the evidence being unearthed is not in accord with the Biblical record.

I've listened to atheists on RF arguing that king David never existed, and was a mythical king; yet recently indisputable archaeological evidence for his rule has been discovered.

I was privileged enough to visit lsrael on a couple of occasions, and on one visit l was given a tour along Hezekiah's tunnel [2 Kings 20:20; 2 Chr. 32:33]. Inscriptions found at the head pool confirmed the accuracy of the biblical record.

I could go on and on about the physical evidence to support the Bible. Even in my own home l have three coins that bear evidence of the history of the NT. One is a coin bearing the head of Caesar Augustus, the emperor at the time of Jesus' birth; the second a 'widow's mite' mentioned in one of Jesus' parables; and the third a coin bearing the symbol of Pontius Pilate, Roman governor of Judea at the time of Jesus' crucifixion.

So, whether one wants archaeological evidence, or, indeed, documentary evidence, the supply is endless.

The Bible does not provide dates, so dating is worked out by gathering both biblical and extra-biblical information. For instance, we know that, at the birth of Jesus, Augustus was the Roman emperor, and that Herod the Great was king in Judea. We are also told that at the time of his baptism, Jesus was 'about thirty years of age', and that this was 'in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of lturea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene, Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests'.

That should be enough historical information for you to work out for yourself a rough date of Jesus' birth. Or do you have reason to deny this historical record?

wizanda · Sep 16, 2022

blü 2 said:
In the bible there is not one purported prophecy that is even vaguely persuasive evidence of supernatural foreknowledge.

Deuteronomy 28:53-55 says they will eat each other's flesh, as the Curse of Moses is placed upon them.

Zechariah 11:9 says at the rejection of the Messiah for 30 pieces of silver, and then the 2nd temple destruction, they will eat each other's flesh.

Therefore historically, we can show at the 2nd temple destruction, at the Siege of Jerusalem; where the Jews were exiled among the nations, as stated in Deuteronomy 28 - they literally eat each other's flesh, due to being starved by the Roman siege.

That is a start to showing how concise some of this is; yet if you argue against it all being random, will assess you're too Skeptical.

blü 2 said:
The bible is henotheist from the start:

I'd say that part of your assessment is because of only using the translation of the Bible; within the Hebrew in the Bible, we can show that El was appointed to the God Most High, the Source of reality, and the Eloh/Elohim is appointed to the Divine Council.

YHVH & Elyon - 2 Samuel 22:14 & Psalms 18:13, Psalms 21:7, Psalms 50:14, Psalms 78:35, Psalms 92:1

Eloh & Almighty - Job 5:17, Job 6:4, Job 11:7, Job 22:26, Job 27:10, Job 31:2, Job 40:2

I believe this comprehension was confused within Babylon (Isaiah 46:9), as they picked up Canaanite understandings of theology, and language.

Thus there is a clear hierarchy (Deuteronomy 32:7-9), that has been overwritten by the bad translation of El (H410) and Eloh (H433) being the same thing; when one refers to a Divine Being manifest (Eloh), and the other to the Source of reality (El - God).

blü 2 said:
Gotta love the author of Matthew's image of Jesus triumphantly entering Jerusalem seated across a donkey and a foal!

Though I'd normally be pointing out that the Gospel of John was written by the Sanhedrin, and is fraudulently contradicting Yeshua...

It does record some things from their perspective accurately as well.

John 12:12-15 states the same that he rode in on a donkey to fulfil Zechariah 9:9; as does Mark 11:7-11 & Luke 19:28-40 - All report a great multitude of people, accepting Yeshua as the coming Messiah; where as stating, the Leaders rejected him, and then lied to cover it up after.

blü 2 said:
translating Isaiah 7:14 rendered Hebrew 'almah, young woman, as Greek parthenos, virgin;

There would be no point in Isaiah 7 making a profound prophetic statement, if a normal young woman gave birth to a child, and called it Immanuel; it only becomes something of a prophetic utterance if it is miraculous, and thus a young unmarried women in the past was deemed a virgin, until her marriage was consummated.

blü 2 said:
invented the unhistoric

I'm never sure about history, as we don't have all the details, and even on modern events things can be ambiguous.

blü 2 said:
One of several reasons we can date the first gospel, Mark, to 75 CE or later is that its author has Jesus foretell the destruction of Jerusalem, which happened in 70 CE.

That is changing the hole to make the shape fit in it, rather than checking what did fit to begin.

It is possible Yeshua stated the same as the Tanakh prophesied in Zechariah 11:1-14, Daniel 9:26, Jeremiah 25:29-38, etc, that the 2nd temple would be destroyed for their rejection of the Messiah.

blü 2 said:
no ordinary Jewish citizen would recognize Jesus as a messiah

As showing a multitude came with palm branches singing Hosanna as he entered Jerusalem.

The Feeding of the Five thousand, and Sermon on the Mount, were to thousands of people who accepted Yeshua.

blü 2 said:
And his gift to Judaism was two thousand years of rapacious and often murderous antisemitism. Some messiah!

As saying the Messiah was prophesied to come against the fake Rabbinic Rebels (Isaiah 54:16, Ezekiel 5:16, Jeremiah 2:30, Jeremiah 4:7, Jeremiah 22:7 - Destroyer = Anointed), as by definition of them denying all the prophecy, they are not Jews who accept the Tanakh, as it shows how Yeshua was a manifestation of the Lord.

Just because some people have expectations the Messiah is some superhero king to give them everything, that isn't what the texts suggests; it is more the Messiah will bring the Messianic Age, removing from reality all those who don't ascribe to the correct theology.

In my opinion.

rational experiences · Sep 16, 2022

Basic suggested thinking.

Earths heavens owned no light first as laws of a planet earth it's owned position natural.

As sciences answer laws.

So you dont own those laws pretty basic.

As you don't own those laws biology says I own the presence of light in natural law held above.

As Infinity voiding space vacuum froze sucked back in burning sun attack.

God said men were laws of created bodies. By terms greatest.

Meaning coldest in created creation only.

Therefore the sacrificed immaculate gods Inheritance. Burnt. Then it cooled to stay above outside where it belonged.

The law burning an evil law as compared to cooled held.

So gods term owned the sacrificed first in law then saved in law. Also not science.

That law says beyond no doubt as science no human life sacrifice.

Hence please stop your scientific lying claim that biology even earths mass should be removed destroyed just because a group of nasty evil minded lying sob men say so.

Men who said personal slavery was evil yet did it themselves. As only the native American father taught you who you really were.

Once English Eurpoean slaves yourselves by old men of science technology.

blü 2 · Sep 16, 2022

wizanda said:
Deuteronomy 28:53-55 says they will eat each other's flesh, as the Curse of Moses is placed upon them.

So what?

wizanda said:
Zechariah 11:9 says at the rejection of the Messiah for 30 pieces of silver, and then the 2nd temple destruction, they will eat each other's flesh.

What "30 "pieces of silver"? Where is there any mention of the second Temple?

wizanda said:
Therefore historically, we can show at the 2nd temple destruction, at the Siege of Jerusalem; where the Jews were exiled among the nations, as stated in Deuteronomy 28 - they literally eat each other's flesh, due to being starved by the Roman siege.

That unsurprisingly allows any text to mean whatever you'd like it to mean. You could have different meanings for every day of the week but the Sabbath under your rules. Show me I'm wrong. Show me the words "second temple" in Zechariah 11 please.

wizanda said:
if you argue against it all being random, will assess you're too Skeptical.

First, historical method is one of the forms of reasoned skeptical enquiry. The opposite of skeptical is gullible, no?

wizanda said:
your assessment is because of only using the translation of the Bible; within the Hebrew in the Bible, we can show that El was appointed to the God Most High, the Source of reality, and the Eloh/Elohim is appointed to the Divine Council.

When you say things like that, you really force me to bite my tongue.

wizanda said:
Just because some people have expectations the Messiah is some superhero king to give them everything, that isn't what the texts suggests

The basic idea of the messiah is that he's a leader of the Jewish people, and their liberator, in this case from the Romans. He might be a civil leader, a war leader or a religious leader, but he's acclaimed by them all, and recognized by being anointed by the Jewish priesthood. That doesn't sound like Jesus to me. It really doesn't.

Oh, and you didn't explain to me why the God of the Jewish nation would send [his] chosen people a messiah who was unrecognizable as a messiah, and whose legacy has been two thousand years of rapacious and often murderous Christian antisemitism.

1213 · Sep 16, 2022

Rival said:
Because they're the only way to know the Messiah has come at all. They're the messianic prophecies that tell you what the Messiah will do. What other criteria are you going to use and why would you?

What reason there is to think Messiah can't do anything else before the Messianic age?

Rival · Sep 16, 2022

1213 said:
What reason there is to think Messiah can't do anything else before the Messianic age?

Because we know what he's meant to do because the Tanakh literally tells us. It's the most straightforward understanding.

wizanda · Sep 16, 2022

Rival said:
Because we know what he's meant to do because the Tanakh literally tells us. It's the most straightforward understanding.

It isn't simple to understand though, and it was made complex to catch out the hypocrites who'd uncautiously reject the Tanakh.

There are clearly multiple occurrences of the Messiah; where the Rabbis have then debated meanings of Messiah Ben Joseph, and Messiah Ben David.

In many of the Rabbinic assessments, they say they don't actually know, and when the Messiah comes, then it will be justified.

The problem with their assessment is that they've set themselves up, by rejecting much of the contexts, and already denied some of the fundamentals of their religion i.e Salvation (Yeshua - H3444).

In my opinion.

wizanda · Sep 16, 2022

blü 2 said:
So what?

You say 'show a purported prophecy that is even vaguely persuasive evidence', I show you one, and you say 'so what'. :facepalm:

blü 2 said:
What "30 "pieces of silver"?

Zechariah 11:12-14 says the religious leaders will pay 30 pieces of silver for the Messiah, placing it into the Potter's Field in the House of Israel; which all happened with Judas (Matthew 27:9-10).

blü 2 said:
Where is there any mention of the second Temple?

Zechariah helped build the 2nd temple with Cedars, and in the start of Zechariah 11, it talks of the Wailing of the Shepherds as continued from Jeremiah 25:29-38, and the Burning of the Cedars - that was in reference to the 2nd temple being destroyed, and then the people exiled & massacred.

blü 2 said:
Show me the words "second temple" in Zechariah 11 please.

It doesn't have to define the exact statement, for the prophecy to be indicated to show that; anyone who'd studied it enough could know this.

blü 2 said:
The opposite of skeptical is gullible, no?

I'm sceptical of most things, and have done advanced study on the Bible to find get out clauses, and in the end found it adds up...

Whereas it seems you're being so Skeptical, that instead of deal with the workings of a huge algebra sum, you've already dismissed large parts of the equation, and then said it doesn't add up.

I agree being gullible is worse; where someone just accepts the sum adds up, when they've not even addressed if that is what it says.

blü 2 said:
When you say things like that, you really force me to bite my tongue.

Really not sure why? Sorry if you've already analysed all the differences between El (H410) & Eloh (H433)?

blü 2 said:
The basic idea of the messiah is that he's a leader of the Jewish people, and their liberator, in this case from the Romans.

you didn't explain to me why the God of the Jewish nation would send [his] chosen people a messiah who was unrecognizable as a messiah, and whose legacy has been two thousand years of rapacious and often murderous Christian antisemitism.

I've just posted a list of verses saying that the Messiah came to destroy them, and place them under the Curse of Moses (Deuteronomy 28-30), with the end results of it being the complete destruction of all the fakes; the wishful thinking of the Rabbis that he is some superhero to save them, isn't what was prophesied.

To summarize where the confusion is coming from: is that the Sanhedrin (Pharisees, Sadducees, Levites) according to the Essenes, Nasoraeans, Ebionites were not Jews; they are imposters who've created their own Oral Traditions, rewriting the religion into Rabbinic Rebellionism.

In my opinion.

blü 2 · Sep 16, 2022

wizanda said:
You say 'show a purported prophecy that is even vaguely persuasive evidence', I show you one, and you say 'so what'.

It doesn't actually predict anything. It's like saying "the Lord is my shepherd" refers to your landlord who keeps a few sheep.

wizanda said:
Zechariah 11:12-14 says the religious leaders will pay 30 pieces of silver for the Messiah, placing it into the Potter's Field in the House of Israel; which all happened with Judas (Matthew 27:9-10).

Thank you for that.

I showed you some of the author of Matthew's historical fictions earlier and pointed out the practice, when writing about Jesus, of moving him through those parts of scripture which you took to be messianic prophecies (which of course none of them is). Bearing that in mind, which seems more likely to you ─ that an historical Judas accepted, not just any money, but thirty pieces of silver specifically, purely by chance and the author of Matthew duly recorded it? Or that the author of Matthew with Zechariah 11:12-14 in mind wrote that part in so as to tick another of his "prophecy" boxes? Which way do you think an impartial jury would read the case?

wizanda · Sep 16, 2022

blü 2 said:
It doesn't actually predict anything.

It literally says 'they will eat each other's flesh', originally back to Moses with a timeline of when the Curse of Moses is placed; which is where the Rabbinic Rebels are exiled among the nations for rejecting the Tanakh...

Then in Zechariah 11:9 it makes a more specific timeline, as it specifies because their leaders rejected the Lord coming as the Messiah, then it will happen 'they eat each other's flesh' at the 2nd temple destruction, before the exile among the nations.

Which we see happened historically that 'they eat each other's flesh' at the Siege of Jerusalem, before the exile among the nations.

blü 2 said:
Which way do you think an impartial jury would read the case?

The impartial jury would assess what was stated, and did it happen as expected, plus is there evidence to show this; it is very clear you're already making your mind up, before you've started, and then ignoring evidence that doesn't justify what you've originally set out to prove.

blü 2 said:
I showed you some of the author of Matthew's historical fictions earlier and pointed out the practice, when writing about Jesus, of moving him through those parts of scripture which you took to be messianic prophecies (which of course none of them is).

That statement already suggests you've studied the advanced details of these prophecies to know if they're Messianic, and I'd say from your statements you're guessing if they are.

blü 2 said:
that an historical Judas accepted, not just any money, but thirty pieces of silver specifically, purely by chance and the author of Matthew duly recorded it? Or that the author of Matthew with Zechariah 11:12-14 in mind wrote that part in so as to tick another of his "prophecy" boxes?

That is only one aspect of Judas fulfilling prophecy to the letter purposely, there is also him kissing the Messiah to betray him, which was recorded in the Apocalypse of Abraham prior to it happening also; so I'd say it was purposely arranged as prophesied, to catch out all the hypocrites who don't read to understand.

So no I don't believe Matthew started by trying to make things up to tick his prophecy boxes, he was more trying to assess what was prophesied, and what things did the early Church understand to have been fulfilled.

In my opinion.

Wildswanderer · Sep 16, 2022

Or you might not understand how prophecy language works.

Subduction Zone said:
I am unaware of any such Old Testament prophecies. You might be mistaken again about what a prophecy is.

Subduction Zone · Sep 16, 2022

Wildswanderer said:
Or you might not understand how prophecy language works.

No. Prophecy does not get its own language. That is the false claim of those that cannot support their beliefs.

Wildswanderer · Sep 16, 2022

Subduction Zone said:
No. Prophecy does not get its own language. That is the false claim of those that cannot support their beliefs.

Okay let me try to explain this simply:
The Greek word ‘apocalypse’ does not mean the catastrophic end of the world. The English language has completely misunderstood and mangled the word. The word ‘apocalypse’ means to reveal or to make something visible (as in Matthew 10:26—“There is nothing concealed that will not be apocalypsed, or hidden that will not be made known”)

"Most first-century Jews were familiar with the apocalyptic literary form. The book of Revelation reflected both the form and content of apocalyptic writings, so the original Christian readers of Revelation — especially those who had come out of a Jewish religious background — would have recognized it as an apocalyptic work. The language, thoughts and symbols would have been familiar."
Revelation, Apocalyptic Writing and the Old Testament - Grace Communion International

Are you with me so far?

I'm sure you're familiar with the parables Jesus told, where he used metaphorical language to explain a moral point, or to explain an event.
This was a very common form of language used in the Torah.

Or this: (from Jesus)…27For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’…

You can easily see the parallels in the OT:

51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined.
52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the LORD your God is giving you.
53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your God has given you.

There was actually cannibalism happening in the siege of Jerusalem.
Jesus said:
4 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.

c 20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.

a 15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet
15 and let him that is on the housetop not go down, nor enter in, a to take out the things that are in {b to take anything out of} his house

Old testament Parallel verses:
Deuteronomy 28:49-57 ; Daniel 9:26 Daniel 9:27 ; Daniel 12:1 Daniel 12:11 ; Joel 2:2 .
(There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.)
(1 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.)

All this metaphorical language makes sense if it's applied to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. But it might also be about future events.
As that great prophet Robert Plant observed (sarcasm) " Because you know sometimes words have two meanings."

I could go on for pages but hopefully you understand the point.

Subduction Zone · Sep 16, 2022

Wildswanderer said:
Okay let me try to explain this simply:
The Greek word ‘apocalypse’ does not mean the catastrophic end of the world. The English language has completely misunderstood and mangled the word. The word ‘apocalypse’ means to reveal or to make something visible (as in Matthew 10:26—“There is nothing concealed that will not be apocalypsed, or hidden that will not be made known”)

"Most first-century Jews were familiar with the apocalyptic literary form. The book of Revelation reflected both the form and content of apocalyptic writings, so the original Christian readers of Revelation — especially those who had come out of a Jewish religious background — would have recognized it as an apocalyptic work. The language, thoughts and symbols would have been familiar."
Revelation, Apocalyptic Writing and the Old Testament - Grace Communion International

Are you with me so far?

I'm sure you're familiar with the parables Jesus told, where he used metaphorical language to explain a moral point, or to explain an event.
This was a very common form of language used in the Torah.

Or this: (from Jesus)…27For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’…

You can easily see the parallels in the OT:

51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined.
52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the LORD your God is giving you.
53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your God has given you.

There was actually cannibalism happening in the siege of Jerusalem.
Jesus said:
4 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.

c 20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.

a 15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet
15 and let him that is on the housetop not go down, nor enter in, a to take out the things that are in {b to take anything out of} his house

Old testament Parallel verses:
Deuteronomy 28:49-57 ; Daniel 9:26 Daniel 9:27 ; Daniel 12:1 Daniel 12:11 ; Joel 2:2 .
(There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.)
(1 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.)

All this metaphorical language makes sense if it's applied to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. But it might also be about future events.
As that great prophet Robert Plant observed (sarcasm) " Because you know sometimes words have two meanings."

I could go on for pages but hopefully you understand the point.

It does not matter. Even if I grant that to you it is still a failed prophecy. In fact the prophecy: "You will see some bad times in your future" is so vague as to be worthless. You are ignoring the important part of the failed prophecy of Matthew 16 27-28. Jesus was supposed to come back. They were supposed to see Jesus coming back for those days. It is rather funny, but I don't remember Jesus coming back in 70 CE, which Roman newspaper covered that story?

blü 2 · Sep 16, 2022

wizanda said:
It literally says 'they will eat each other's flesh', originally back to Moses with a timeline of when the Curse of Moses is placed; which is where the Rabbinic Rebels are exiled among the nations for rejecting the Tanakh...

Cannibalism in times of extreme food stress is something that occurs at a steady rate across the centuries. there are also cultures in which cannibalism is an established feature, not least in the Pacific. No one gets marks for saying that in future humans will eat humans.

The only useful prophecy has be very clearly written down and dated and the record warranted tamper-free ever after, and refer to future events so distant, improbable and obscure, which come about with such great exactness to the prediction in the absence of any conscious effort to fulfill the prophecy, that it requires the impartial onlooker to consider supernatural foreknowledge. As you know, the number of examples is exactly zero.

wizanda said:
Then in Zechariah 11:9 it makes a more specific timeline, as it specifies because their leaders rejected the Lord coming as the Messiah

But as I keep pointing out, Jesus in no way qualifies as a Jewish messiah. He wasn't recognized and rejected, he was never recognized because he was unrecognizable. Sending an unrecognizable messiah would be a dumb move for any deity to make, no?

wizanda said:
That is only one aspect of Judas fulfilling prophecy to the letter purposely, there is also him kissing the Messiah to betray him, which was recorded in the Apocalypse of Abraham prior to it happening also; so I'd say it was purposely arranged as prophesied, to catch out all the hypocrites who don't read to understand.

What it shows is that the authors of the gospels wrote their stories deliberately moving their hero through scenarios of "fulfillment of prophesy" because they took it to add not only color but cred. I gave you several examples from Matthew, who's the clumsiest of them all at it. He also had the Wise Men and aerial phenomena at the start and at the finish the colorful zombies at large in the streets of Jerusalem which no one else noticed (Matthew 27:52-3) ─ oh, and God's retirement so [he]'d have more time for golf or its celestial equivalent (Matthew 28:18).

And you keep omitting to explain how God's own messenger to [his] Chosen People generated a religion which resulted in two thousand years of Christian antisemitism ─ rapacious and murderous, as I keep pointing out, and still active out there.

PS It occurs to me that the Eucharist is a cannibal rite, consuming the flesh and the blood, either metaphorically or actually by way of transubstantiation. Are you saying that is what the Tanakh predictions meant?

wizanda · Sep 16, 2022

blü 2 said:
And you keep omitting to explain how God's own messenger to [his] Chosen People generated a religion which resulted in two thousand years of Christian antisemitism

This is what the Curse of Moses (Deuteronomy 28) said would happen, they will be persecuted among the Gentiles for going against the Law & prophecy.

Plus God will use the Foolish Gentiles to put them off accepting the Bible (Deuteronomy 32:21).

Next it states in my understanding, that God is going to incinerate the lot of us, and keep those who got the Biblical exam (Deuteronomy 32:22).

blü 2 said:
But as I keep pointing out, Jesus in no way qualifies as a Jewish messiah. He wasn't recognized and rejected, he was never recognized because he was unrecognizable. Sending an unrecognizable messiah would be a dumb move for any deity to make, no?

Yeshua didn't have to fulfil all parts of Messiah Ben Joseph, and Messiah Ben David; I'd think most people would find there are two prophecies identified in scripture.

A Suffering Servant Messiah who'd ride in on a donkey (Yeshua), and then the King coming on the sky (David).

It is specifically prophesied he will be rejected, and not truly recognized by his people in Isaiah 53:3, Psalms 118:22, etc.

blü 2 said:
It occurs to me that the Eucharist is a cannibal rite, consuming the flesh and the blood, either metaphorically or actually by way of transubstantiation. Are you saying that is what the Tanakh predictions meant?

Yeah I think the Bible is a devious riddle, that came from much earlier religious ideas of a Snare to remove the blood thirsty demons; thus I can show where the Bible addressed all these aspects, of warning that is what it is about.

Where I believe the basic Noahide Laws stipulated in Genesis 9:4-6, are against human sacrifice, and drinking blood.

It is my understanding that the Tanakh predicted a City Built upon Blood Shed in Habakkuk 2; where they will worship wooden idols, and pay no attention to the Snare stated before them.

In my opinion.

rational experiences · Sep 16, 2022

The legal position.

A summary of the king lord rich men of science of trade. Who caused it. Men living in the heavens holy water biology. Not in the sky above.

Rebuilt old technology. Updated using slavery in England. Stonehenge the new incorporated model. Didn't work. Still caused life's sacrifice.

Same outcome cause effect varied only. As old technology had. Nuclear dust change. To attack humans life.

Reason...
Earths mass no longer was the same. As old terms. Earths heavens mass no longer same mass as amounts.

Pretty basic.

The legal statement said science was proclaimed a criminal. And a murderer of humans heavenly support of spirits. The gases.

Of gods. It's inheritance...cooling ice saviour causes.

Heavens body has spirit sacrificed by its terms body mass. The body of god science only hurt life on earth...ALL life was the teaching first...old terms.

Ground mass removed into emptying sin hole..
Sink hole. K old science symbol the constant.

Jesus in documents proclaimed the criminal thief. By scientific causes.

Had been jailed entombed in gods cold earth. Science had removed the mass. Stolen emptied it out of earths holy mass.

Hence only because biology had invented his sciences. Man's life conditions had saved any further sin.

How man said only because he lived did sin stop. Not by mass science terms...his life's status only. A teaching...legal. ignored. Mis read.

Which would mean total earth mass face plate as the term carpenter tectonic could have collapsed in. Ice and water our life support proved it saved sin.

So waters mass on ground changed both pressures above below as ice body sacrificed also. Lifted up and protected nature...so sin stopped.

Humans life actually...nature's conditions had stopped sin.

How a human caused the attack yet as a human was human lucky for us waters mass lifted and stopped falling spirit leaving alight leaving as reborn alighted burning gases burning.

In womb vacuum mother caused evaporation. Saving of the body by taking it down.

The only truth and nothing but the truth.

blü 2 · Sep 16, 2022

wizanda said:
This is what the Curse of Moses (Deuteronomy 28) said would happen, they will be persecuted among the Gentiles for going against the Law & prophecy.

Now you're doing what the gospel authors were doing, trying to sound better by wreathing OT allusions into your narrative.

You haven't offered any credible explanation as to how supernatural prophecy is possible at all ─ or how it can be distinguished from retrofitting, as Matthew clumsily does (as I've showed you) and Christians do when they try to impose "prophecies" of Jesus on the Tanakh eg by pretending the "Suffering Servant" stories in Isaiah refer to Jesus.

wizanda said:
Next it states in my understanding, that God is going to incinerate the lot of us, and keep those who got the Biblical exam (Deuteronomy 32:22).

Where's the part where it says, "but don't worry, folks, ain't going to happen for another three thousand years"?

wizanda said:
Yeshua didn't have to fulfil all parts of Messiah Ben Joseph

The point is that Jesus was unrecognizable as a messiah to the mainstream Jew; and that makes God look pretty silly sending Jesus instead of the real deal.

wizanda said:
Suffering Servant Messiah who'd ride in on a donkey (Yeshua), and then the King coming on the sky (David).

Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher in an apocalyptic age. That's why the author of Mark has Jesus make those promises that the Kingdom will be established in the lifetime of some of them, and why the authors of Matthew and Luke totally agreed. By the time we get to John, that prophecy is obviously a dud and is quietly dropped. Prophecies are like that, except this time the dud one got kept on the record,

wizanda said:
It is specifically prophesied he will be rejected, and not truly recognized by his people in Isaiah 53:3, Psalms 118:22, etc.

Nope. The Suffering Servant is the nation of Israel. If you're in any doubt, ask your Jewish friends ─ the Tanakh is their book, after all, not Christianity's. The references have nothing to do with Jesus in their own context ─ but of course in the hands of the gospel writers, retrofitting is mainstream.

And still just your silence on why God's messiah would bring about two thousand years of ─ let me say it yet again ─ rapacious and murderous antisemitism as [his] gift to [his] Chosen People.

Prophecies Jesus failed to fulfill?

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