My one-way ticket to hell

michel · Mar 24, 2007

Reverend Rick said:
Gnostic, not every Christian feels that way about you. I am a former Pagan and yes, I have heard of Lilith. I love reading ancient texts and will have to check out your website. If the e-mails persist may I suggest you referring your judgemental tormentor to his scriptures.

Matthew 7: 1,2
DO NOT judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Which, I think ties in rather well with the "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those that trespass against us"..Of the Lord's prayer.

And thank you, Gnostic, a great and interesting site.

sandy whitelinger · Mar 24, 2007

Mister_T said:
I'm not aware of any verses that support human judgment of any kind. Jesus is quite clear on his stance about judging others and dictating to them.

Mattew 7: 1-5 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brothers eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother 'Let me take the speck out of your eye' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? you hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers" Translation: Unless you're perfect, zip it.

Here's another.

Matthew 23; 13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spicesmint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the lawjustice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel

Enjoy.

I'm lacking time right now to address this fully but here is a place to start:

http://www.virtualchurch.org/2006/06/judge-not-dangrous-myth.html

kiwimac · Mar 25, 2007

In the NT Jesus is quite clear that any judgement that a person uses will be used against them. We see it everyday, the evangelical preacher who fulminates against sin and is found a sinner, the politician who harps on about welfare recipients and is found avoiding taxes.

In a sense Jesus is saying that, our weaknesses cause us to see those same weaknesses in others, kind of like a type of lens that makes what is important to us, obvious in others to us. So we see a particular kind of sin because we ourselves 'do' that kind of sin.

Which puts my carping about judgemental fundamentalists firmly in place, does it not?

michel · Mar 25, 2007

kiwimac said:
In the NT Jesus is quite clear that any judgement that a person uses will be used against them. We see it everyday, the evangelical preacher who fulminates against sin and is found a sinner, the politician who harps on about welfare recipients and is found avoiding taxes.

In a sense Jesus is saying that, our weaknesses cause us to see those same weaknesses in others, kind of like a type of lens that makes what is important to us, obvious in others to us. So we see a particular kind of sin because we ourselves 'do' that kind of sin.

Which puts my carping about judgemental fundamentalists firmly in place, does it not?

That is a good point, actually.

It is a well known fact (in psychology) that people who have a particular "hatred" for a trait in others are actually externalising the fear they have for that trait in themselves -

A quick and true example:-
My older son Andy; has always advocated that he hates wealth - he believes that wealth is wrong, bad, immoral - whatever.

The reason he behaves that way is because of his fear that wealth is tempting to him, and is subconsciously frightened of how he would "control" the need for wealth.

Does that make sense?

Mister_T · Mar 26, 2007

sandy whitelinger said:
I'm lacking time right now to address this fully but here is a place to start:

http://www.virtualchurch.org/2006/06/judge-not-dangrous-myth.html

Well when you have the time, perhaps you can do a better job of defending the whole "It's ok for Christians to judge" stance better than the author of that article. Aside from his butchering and mispronouncing of the word "nunchucks," the author ignores one of the key elements of the whole scriptural argument against any form of judgment, and that is the plank in the finger pointer's eye and the speck in the accused's eye. Not surprising how that didn't even get a mention.

The author also does not address when Jesus says woe to the Pharisee's and teachers of the law. His attitude towards this type of behavior was quite clear: Unless your perfect and without sin, still thy waging tongue. "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." It's apparent that Pharisee's and the Teachers of the Law are still with us today.

It's funny how a group of people who claim to take the word of God for what it is, fails to do so when that exact same word exposes their own shortcomings.

gnostic · Mar 28, 2007

The following article was found in Melbourne's Herald Sun, Wednesday, March 28, which reinforce that some people like using hell to convert people, and there's no one higher today than the pope.

Pope says hell and damnation are real and eternal

By Richard Owen in Rome
March 28, 2007 12:00am

HELL is a place where sinners really do burn in an everlasting fire, and not just a religious symbol designed to galvanise the faithful, Pope Benedict XVI has said.
Addressing a parish gathering in a northern suburb of Rome, the Pope said that in the modern world many people, including some believers, had forgotten that if they failed to "admit blame and promise to sin no more", they risked "eternal damnation - the inferno".

Hell "really exists and is eternal, even if nobody talks about it much any more".
The Pope, who as cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was head of Catholic doctrine, noted that "forgiveness of sins" for those who repented was a cornerstone of Christian belief.

He recalled that Jesus had forgiven the "woman taken in adultery" and prevented her from being stoned to death, observing: "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
God had given men and women free will to choose whether "spontaneously to accept salvation...the Christian faith is not imposed on anyone, it is a gift, an offer to mankind".
Vatican officials said the Pope - who is also the Bishop of Rome - had been speaking in "straightforward" language "like a parish priest".

He had wanted to reinforce the new Catholic catechism, which holds that hell is a "state of eternal separation from God", to be understood "symbolically rather than physically".
Agostino Paravicini Bagliani, a church historian, said the Pope was "right to remind us that hell is not something to be put on one side" as an inconvenient or embarrassing aspect of belief.

It was described by St Matthew as a place of "everlasting fire" (Matthew xxv, 41).
"The problem is not only that our sense of sin has declined, but also that the world wars and totalitarianisms of the 20th century created a hell on earth as bad as anything we can imagine in the afterlife," Professor Bagliani said.
In 1999, pope John Paul II said heaven was "neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds, but that fullness of communion with God, which is the goal of human life".
Hell, by contrast, was "the ultimate consequence of sin itself. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy".
In October, the Pope indicated that limbo, supposed since medieval times to be a "halfway house" between heaven and hell, was "only a theological hypothesis" and not a "definitive truth of the faith".
The Times, London, in The Australian

I have not like this German pope, and I certainly don't trust him.

athanasius said:
Hmmm Maybe you'll end up doing some time in purgatory??

Well, this from the pope, sort of kill off purgatory.

In October, the Pope indicated that limbo, supposed since medieval times to be a "halfway house" between heaven and hell, was "only a theological hypothesis" and not a "definitive truth of the faith".

James the Persian · Mar 28, 2007

gnostic said:
Well, this from the pope, sort of kill off purgatory.

Not at all. Purgatory and limbo are quite different concepts. In our view they're also both equally false, but you really shouldn't confuse the two. Purgatory is a belief in a place (or state) where we are given temporal punishment for sins already forgiven (as I understand it, and I readily admit that I don't really) . As such it is by definition temporary but as it is also dogma itmust be belived in by RCs. Limbo was only ever theory, but it was a third (or fourth, depending on one's view of purgatory, heaven and hell as places) place where the unbaptised could go if they committed no personal sin. One can only assume such a place would be permanent but RCs have always been free to disbelieve in the idea.

James

glasgowchick · Mar 28, 2007

gnostic said:
It would seem that I have been sliced, quartered and even diced, before receiving my one-way ticket to hell.

I don't know how many people in RF who have visited my website, Dark Mirrors of Heaven. It was meant to provide information about the non-canonical texts in relation to the Genesis, particularly in regarding to the Creation (which included Adam and Eve) and Enoch. Texts that I have used included the Haggada, Book of Jubilees, books of Enoch, Apocryphon of John (Gnostic), and others.

It was to provide different perspective, of the way ancient people thought of their religions, and how they change over time. It was never meant to displace the bible, and it was certainly not meant to be anti-Christian or anti-Jew or "anti-" anything. It was just mostly summaries of these legends, myths or whatever you would like to call them.

Afterall, not as many Christians in the Western world would know about Lilith, or Enoch's adventures and so forth. Not many read Gnostic texts as well. Also the bible is well known, whereas these texts are not readily available. Thus I was sharing knowledge. It wasn't mean to preach to follow these texts, and being agnostic, I have no desire to convert anyone or turn away from their respective religions.

Well, recently I got emails from one member, whom I won't name. Unless this person don't mind me showing the entire whole emails (including mine) out in the open. It doesn't bother me, one way or another if everyone else read them.

Anyway, the person's email, titled "What do I get out of it?"

Obviously it is question my motive for putting up such site. To this person, only the Bible mattered, and people becoming Christians. How I should concentrate only on the bible and my own salvation, and ignore these texts.

It would seem this person didn't like me pointing out that books such as the book of Enoch and book of Julibees were written before Jesus and his followers' time, and they were influenced by them. I have pointed out Jude's epistle alluding to prophecies from Enoch, which obvious referred to one of the books of Enoch. Also Enoch have been called "Son of Man", a popular epithet, which gospel writers have used and called Jesus.

Then the person began a long reply that I should be honest with myself and accept Jesus, becoming a Christian, as well as the consequence of not accepting Jesus - sins and hell. How I must do so with humility? Obviously he or she wants me to become a Christian.

I can understand this, about humility, but I warned the person that talk of sins, judgement and hell doesn't impress me; in fact, it disgust me. It is what I find Christianity so disgusting. I have people in the past telling me that I would go hell, if I don't convert.

Dark Ages and medieval period, priests have used fear on people to convert, and it is disgusting practice. I told the person that such method don't work with me, and if he or she don't want to talk about my website, then I have no interest in his or her letter if it meant trying to convert me.

I told the person that humility have very little to do with faith or belief. I probably should have explain further, because that only added fuel the person's fire.

Then the person lecture me that I don't have humility to be saved and so forth, and how I would go to hell. Already, the person judge that I would go to hell, and the only salvation is through Christ. Again, trying to put fear in me to convert. The tone of this reply hardly sounded humble. It's sure doesn't show compassion or understanding.

And being the person I am, I told the person that his email didn't sound humble at all. Well, here is the last reply.

His God had not yet judge me yet...if he does exist. Jesus have not judge me yet. But it doesn't matter, since the person have already judge me, and have already booked me a place in hell.

I admired Jesus' teaching of love and compassionate, but I sure don't love his Christians, especially those who are ready to judge me, without even knowing me.

If being Christian meant sharing a place in heaven with people such as these, then I'd prefer to stay out of heaven and go my own way, whichever way that may be.

Hi,
no-one should force you to convert to anything, Jesus said in Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Notice how Jesus said that He stands at the door and knocks waiting for it to be opened..It is up to you to answer His call, if one does hear His call then Jesus said He would come in to him, He will sup with him, and He with me..

However, we need to understand why we are in need of a Savior, and that problem is sin...it is our sin that seperates us from God...

Romans 3:23 says For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:12 says Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The penalty of sin is death...Adam started it, all men have since become sinners, and death is the penalty...Death here means seperation from God.

Jesus paid your debt for you..Romans 5 :8 says But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Jesus paid the price for all sinners, but most will never take advantage of it..

What is our part in all of this...Romans 6:3-4 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? v4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Acts 2:37-38 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? v38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Mark 15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

[ Gospel being Jesus died, was buried, and was raised the third day ]

V16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

We will all spend eterninty somewhere..where we choose to spend it is up to us...God gave us a plan of salvation..we either accept or reject...

MysticSang'ha · Mar 28, 2007

Here's Mystic's "Silly Question of the Day"............

Why should it be only Jesus? If it truly were that simple, wouldn't it stand to reason that ALL the holy books of other religions were to point to Jesus as the only means of salvation? And that prophets of said religions were only there to reaffirm morals and ethics?

Truth be told, Jesus has knocked on my door, and I let him in. AND, he's welcome anytime in my heart - but so is the Buddha, with whom I take refuge.

Too bad I'm still going to hell, eh? LOL

Peace,
Mystic

Mister_T · Mar 28, 2007

MysticSang'ha said:
Here's Mystic's "Silly Question of the Day"............

Why should it be only Jesus? If it truly were that simple, wouldn't it stand to reason that ALL the holy books of other religions were to point to Jesus as the only means of salvation? And that prophets of said religions were only there to reaffirm morals and ethics?

Truth be told, Jesus has knocked on my door, and I let him in. AND, he's welcome anytime in my heart - but so is the Buddha, with whom I take refuge.

Too bad I'm still going to hell, eh? LOL

Peace,
Mystic

Well, at least you'll be in good company. I've been meaning to work on my tan anyways.

:beach:

Marshmellows anyone?

MysticSang'ha · Mar 28, 2007

Mister_T said:
Well, at least you'll be in good company. I've been meaning to work on my tan anyways.

:beach:

Marshmellows anyone?

Let's make s'mores! And then we can chit-chat with Ghandi whilst the flames char the marshmellows over. LOL

Peace,
Mystic

Mister_T · Mar 28, 2007

MysticSang'ha said:
Let's make s'mores! And then we can chit-chat with Ghandi whilst the flames char the marshmellows over. LOL

Peace,
Mystic

Sounds like a plan. I'll grab my sunblock.

I wonder if Ghandi likes Corona......or perhaps a Killians?

gnostic · Mar 29, 2007

glasgowchick said:
no-one should force you to convert to anything

It's not the people asking me to convert that annoys me the hell out of me, glasgowchick.

It is method that some Christians (East Orthodox excluded) still resort to or use to coerce a conversion, using fear as the motivating factor. This is something you would do in to peasants and simple town-folks, during the time they were still persecuting, torturing and executing people - heretics, witches and any who think or say the church is wrong.

Christian doctrines have been using fire and brimstones for centuries, to frighten people into converting, and that's what sickened me.

rocka21 · Mar 29, 2007

i love how people , make jokes,.......... let go and party, i will bring drinks, ha ha ha ha.

the devil is still slick........... " hey, don't worry about it , its not real , let just joke about it, its all fun and games".

in my view, no one in hell is joking today. .......sorry.......

MysticSang'ha · Mar 29, 2007

rocka21 said:
i love how people , make jokes,.......... let go and party, i will bring drinks, ha ha ha ha.

the devil is still slick........... " hey, don't worry about it , its not real , let just joke about it, its all fun and games".

in my view, no one in hell is joking today. .......sorry.......

Oh, please.

We're not joking about hell itself, we're joking about how easily some folks are willing to condemn people like us with a wave of their hands. You obviously haven't been paying attention to my posts, since I DO believe in a hell........numerous hell-realms, in fact.

And the Buddhist hell's entrance requirement rests entirely upon intentions and actions - not on beliefs. Live a life of rage, anger, hatred, and with a will to extinguish others, and one's karma will draw them there like a magnet. Ever hear of the phrase, "Misery loves company?"

Besides, Ghandi's there. And billions and billions and billions of others who had great minds and hearts who simply didn't accept Jesus Christ as their only Lord and Savior, including the 6 million Jews that were murdered in the Holocaust. Apparently, hell is FILLED with loving people, right?

And you wonder why we joke about it.........it's just crazy theology.

Peace,
Mystic

Mister_T · Mar 29, 2007

rocka21 said:
i love how people , make jokes,.......... let go and party, i will bring drinks, ha ha ha ha.

the devil is still slick........... " hey, don't worry about it , its not real , let just joke about it, its all fun and games".

in my view, no one in hell is joking today. .......sorry.......

It's called a sense of humor. Invest in one, it'll do you wonders.

Besides, nobody can say where they're going for sure. The reason that people make these kind of comments is to silence those self righteous finger pointers who like telling people they're going to burn in Hell. If you say, "yeah I'm going to Hell," it steals their thunder and makes their finger pointing........pointless (yuck yuck! I'm full of good ones!).

The added bonus to that of course is that it also ticks off those self righteous individuals (as we can see). Which is why I suspect a lot of people claim to be Atheist: Simply to get a rise out of them.

Mister_T · Mar 29, 2007

MysticSang'ha said:
Oh, please.

We're not joking about hell itself, we're joking about how easily some folks are willing to condemn people like us with a wave of their hands. You obviously haven't been paying attention to my posts, since I DO believe in a hell........numerous hell-realms, in fact.

And the Buddhist hell's entrance requirement rests entirely upon intentions and actions - not on beliefs. Live a life of rage, anger, hatred, and with a will to extinguish others, and one's karma will draw them there like a magnet. Ever hear of the phrase, "Misery loves company?"

Besides, Ghandi's there. And billions and billions and billions of others who had great minds and hearts who simply didn't accept Jesus Christ as their only Lord and Savior, including the 6 million Jews that were murdered in the Holocaust. Apparently, hell is FILLED with loving people, right?

And you wonder why we joke about it.........it's just crazy theology.

Peace,
Mystic

Well stated. :clap

MysticSang'ha · Mar 29, 2007

Mister_T said:
It's called a sense of humor. Invest in one, it'll do you wonders.

Besides, nobody can say where they're going for sure. The reason that people make these kind of comments is to silence those self righteous finger pointers who like telling people they're going to burn in Hell. If you say, "yeah I'm going to Hell," it steals their thunder and makes their finger pointing........pointless (yuck yuck! I'm full of good ones!).

The added bonus to that of course is that it also ticks off those self righteous individuals (as we can see). Which is why I suspect a lot of people claim to be Atheist: Simply to get a rise out of them.

I hear Ghandi only drinks tea. Which will do him good since he'll have enough heat to boil the water necessary to serve it. *grins*

OOPSIE!! Did I make a funny? Oh NNOOOOOOOOO! I'M DOOOOOOOOMED!!!!!!!!! :run:

Peace,
Mystic

Mister_T · Mar 29, 2007

MysticSang'ha said:
I hear Ghandi only drinks tea. Which will do him good since he'll have enough heat to boil the water necessary to serve it. *grins*

OOPSIE!! Did I make a funny? Oh NNOOOOOOOOO! I'M DOOOOOOOOMED!!!!!!!!! :run:

Peace,
Mystic

Apparently humor is not allowed in Heaven either. :tsk: :sarcastic

So on top of a spectacular barbeque, we'll have a damn good stand up act as well.

rocka21 · Mar 29, 2007

Mister_T said:
It's called a sense of humor. Invest in one, it'll do you wonders.

Besides, nobody can say where they're going for sure. The reason that people make these kind of comments is to silence those self righteous finger pointers who like telling people they're going to burn in Hell. If you say, "yeah I'm going to Hell," it steals their thunder and makes their finger pointing........pointless (yuck yuck! I'm full of good ones!).

The added bonus to that of course is that it also ticks off those self righteous individuals (as we can see). Which is why I suspect a lot of people claim to be Atheist: Simply to get a rise out of them.

did you just call me a " self righteous individual"?

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