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For Chrisitans Only: Matthew 5:38-39

Colt

Colt

Well-Known Member
metis said:
Which is what I said.

The Sanhedrin had no power of execution under Roman control, plus crucifixion was not a Jewish form of execution.

BTW, it was "some of the religious authorities" as the Gospel itself states.

Oh, so he sent the Paraclete for nothing? He was more than willing to let his Church just die? Maybe that's what you believe but I certainly don't.

Jesus' Kingdom was and is both spiritual and authoritarian as he clearly meant it to be per the Gospel.
Click to expand...
Thats why the Sanhedrin went to Pilate to have Jesus killed. ----->“But we have no right to execute anyone,” they objected.

You said Jesus was killed for "political" reasons. You are still wrong.

The Sanhedrin had power in their law to condemn someone to death. They had to get the Romans to do it becuse they were an occupied nation.
They did not object to the crucifixion of Jesus.

They had wanted to kill Jesus for a while:

John 8

I know you are Abraham’s descendants, but you are trying to kill Me because My word has no place within you. 38I speak of what I have seen in the presence of the Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”39“Abraham is our father,” they replied.

“If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. 41You are doing the works of your father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they declared. “Our only Father is God Himself.”42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me.43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!


Jesus Sentenced to Be Crucified

19 Then Pilate took Jesus and had him flogged. 2 The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe 3 and went up to him again and again, saying, “Hail, king of the Jews!” And they slapped him in the face.

4 Once more Pilate came out and said to the Jews gathered there, “Look, I am bringing him out to you to let you know that I find no basis for a charge against him.” 5 When Jesus came out wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe, Pilate said to them, “Here is the man!”

6 As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”

Whatever Catholic school you went to needs to refund you the tuition!
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
pearl said:
Just as Jerusalem was the city of destiny in the Gospel of Luke (the place where salvation was accomplished), so here at the beginning of Acts, Jerusalem occupies a central position. It is the starting point for the mission of the Christian disciples to “the ends of the earth,” the place where the apostles were situated and the doctrinal focal point in the early days of the community. The ends of the earth: for Luke, this means Rome.
Keep in mind that the Gospels were written well after the Christianity was already established.
Click to expand...
Christianity of course was established at Pentecost 50 days after Jesus was in heaven.
Yes, Luke chapter 21 took place well after Pentecost when the Roman armies came in the year 70.
Luke wrote that Satan showed (offered) Jesus all the world's governments at Luke 4:5 that is more than Rome.
Luke meant more than Rome at Acts of the Apostles 17:31 but the world.
Please notice according to Luke at Acts of the Apostles 24:5 that Luke knew the Jews were beyond Rome.
This is also why Luke at Acts of the Apostles 1:8 ties in with Jesus words found at Matthew 24:14.
More than Rome but on an inter-nation-al scale: Nations plural.
Luke knew there was a coming MAJOR fulfilling at Luke 21:24-27 in distress of more than Rome but in: nations.
So, I don't see how you conclude that Rome was the ends of the Earth for Luke.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
cOLTER said:
While born into the monotheistic religion of Judaism, the conceptually simple, refined religion of Jesus was the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven which he lived, taught and preached for 3+ years before being apprehended by order of the Sanhedrin and put to death for that message. Christianity evolved into a religion about Jesus which was a new gospel that replaced the original.
Click to expand...
At Pentecost Christianity replaced the OT Law - Romans 10:4; Romans 7:6; Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:14.
Jesus fulfilled that old Law - Matthew 5:17.
Christians are under the 'Law of Christ' - Galatians 6:2; John 13:34-35; John 15:12
The Golden Rule was the OT standard - Leviticus 19:18
Jesus' New standard was Now to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.
In other words, we are now to love neighbor MORE than self, more than the Golden Rule.- John 13:34-35
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
cOLTER said:
Thats why the Sanhedrin went to Pilate to have Jesus killed. ----->“But we have no right to execute anyone,” they objected.
You said Jesus was killed for "political" reasons. You are still wrong.
The Sanhedrin had power in their law to condemn someone to death. They had to get the Romans to do it because they were an occupied nation. They did not object to the crucifixion of Jesus.
They had wanted to kill Jesus for a while: John 8...............................
Click to expand...

Yes, the 71 members of the Jewish High Court (Sanhedrin) wanted Jesus killed. They could Not execute Jesus.
This is why they schemed to get the Romans to do their dirty work so they used trumped-up political charges of:
-> sedition, treason and injured majesty against Jesus.
The Jews were culpable, blood guilty - Acts of the Apostles 3:12-15
The Jews had the community responsibility and failed to bring Jesus to justice -> Deuteronomy 21:1-9
 
Colt

Colt

Well-Known Member
URAVIP2ME said:
At Pentecost Christianity replaced the OT Law - Romans 10:4; Romans 7:6; Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:14.
Jesus fulfilled that old Law - Matthew 5:17.
Christians are under the 'Law of Christ' - Galatians 6:2; John 13:34-35; John 15:12
The Golden Rule was the OT standard - Leviticus 19:18
Jesus' New standard was Now to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.
In other words, we are now to love neighbor MORE than self, more than the Golden Rule.- John 13:34-35
Click to expand...
The Gospel of the Kingdom had already replaced the Old Testament. Jesus recognized the intent of the evolved religion of Judaism with its manmade laws.

After Pentecost a new Gospel replaced the gospel of Jesus. "Christ and him crucified" and resurrected became the new message. The atonement theory became popular with people like Paul who replaced Jesus as the primary personality of the movement to the Gentile world. The Church would make Paul's teaching and letters into "the Word of God".
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
cOLTER said:
You said Jesus was killed for "political" reasons. You are still wrong.

The Sanhedrin had power in their law to condemn someone to death. They had to get the Romans to do it becuse they were an occupied nation.
Click to expand...
No, I am clearly not wrong because crucifixion is not a form of execution sanctioned in Judaism.

Instead, it is far more likely that the Romans viewed Jesus as basically being a threat to them, probably stemming from his overturning the tables at the Temple using a whip, plus his claims about his "kingdom". It was Pilate that ordered the execution, thus not the Sanhedrin, and he was so brutal with his use of crucifixion, that he got called back to Rome to explain why he was being so ruthless.

cOLTER said:
They did not object to the crucifixion of Jesus.

They had wanted to kill Jesus for a while:
Click to expand...
Again, who's the "they" is important because we well know that most Jews, undoubtedly including most Pharisees, had nothing to do with Jesus' crucifixion, and a great many probably didn't even know who he was. Many theologians believe that the Barabbas story was likely fiction as it simply does not make sense even according to the Roman historians, thus it may have been formulated to discredit Jews that did not convert to the Church. Either way, I don't lose any sleep over it as I'm not a literalist.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
cOLTER said:
Jesus recognized the intent of the evolved religion of Judaism with its manmade laws.
Click to expand...
The 613 Commandments are all found in Torah, thus not "manmade": A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

cOLTER said:
The atonement theory became popular with people like Paul who replaced Jesus as the primary personality of the movement to the Gentile world.
Click to expand...
It doesn't make sense if taken at the literal level, but it can make sense if taken symbolically.
 
Colt

Colt

Well-Known Member
metis said:
No, I am clearly not wrong because crucifixion is not a form of execution sanctioned in Judaism.

Instead, it is far more likely that the Romans viewed Jesus as basically being a threat to them, probably stemming from his overturning the tables at the Temple using a whip, plus his claims about his "kingdom". It was Pilate that ordered the execution, thus not the Sanhedrin, and he was so brutal with his use of crucifixion, that he got called back to Rome to explain why he was being so ruthless.

Again, who's the "they" is important because we well know that most Jews, undoubtedly including most Pharisees, had nothing to do with Jesus' crucifixion, and a great many probably didn't even know who he was. Many theologians believe that the Barabbas story was likely fiction as it simply does not make sense even according to the Roman historians, thus it may have been formulated to discredit Jews that did not convert to the Church. Either way, I don't lose any sleep over it as I'm not a literalist.
Click to expand...

When the Jewish authorities yelled “crucify, crucify” that means crucifixion. You are playing dumb I guess?

Whoever “they” were, they had the power to put Jesus through a sham trial, and hand him over to Pilate for execution.

Again from John 8

13The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”

In the course of the lengthy exchange:


Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would c do what Abraham did. 40As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the works of your own father.”


Matthew 16:1-4
The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus, they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven. But He replied to them, “When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’ And in the morning, ‘There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times?read more.

Mark 8:11-12
The Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, to test Him. Sighing deeply in His spirit, He *said, “Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation.”

Matthew 19:3-9
Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?” And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?read more.



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Mark 10:2-9
Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife. And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?” They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.”read more.


Matthew 22:15-22
Then the Pharisees went and plotted together how they might trap Him in what He said. And they *sent their disciples to Him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any. Tell us then, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?”read more.

Mark 12:13-17
Then they *sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Him in order to trap Him in a statement. They *came and *said to Him, “Teacher, we know that You are truthful and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any, but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to pay a poll-tax to Caesar, or not? Shall we pay or shall we not pay?” But He, knowing their hypocrisy, said to them, “Why are you testing Me? Bring Me a denarius to look at.”read more.

Luke 20:20-26
So they watched Him, and sent spies who pretended to be righteous, in order that they might catch Him in some statement, so that they could deliver Him to the rule and the authority of the governor. They questioned Him, saying, “Teacher, we know that You speak and teach correctly, and You are not partial to any, but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful for us to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?”read more.

Matthew 22:34-40
But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”read more.

Mark 12:28-34
One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’read more.

John 8:3-11
The scribes and the Pharisees *brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, they *said to Him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?”read more.

Mark 12:13-14
Then they *sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Him in order to trap Him in a statement. They *came and *said to Him, “Teacher, we know that You are truthful and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any, but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to pay a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?

Matthew 22:15-16
Then the Pharisees went and plotted together how they might trap Him in what He said. And they *sent their disciples to Him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any.

Matthew 12:38
Verse Concepts
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”

Matthew 22:34-36
But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”

Luke 7:39-40
Now when the Pharisee who had invited Him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet He would know who and what sort of person this woman is who is touching Him, that she is a sinner.” And Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” And he replied, “Say it, Teacher.”

Luke 19:39
Verse Concepts
Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.”

Luke 20:21
Verse Concepts
They questioned Him, saying, “Teacher, we know that You speak and teach correctly, and You are not partial to any, but teach the way of God in truth.

John 3:2
Verse Concepts
this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

John 8:3-4
The scribes and the Pharisees *brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, they *said to Him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.

Matthew 22:41-46
Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: “What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?” They *said to Him, “The son of David.” He *said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying,read more.

Mark 12:35-40
And Jesus began to say, as He taught in the temple, “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? David himself said in the Holy Spirit,
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Until I put Your enemies beneath Your feet.”’
David himself calls Him ‘Lord’; so in what sense is He his son?” And the large crowd enjoyed listening to Him.read more.

Luke 20:41-44
Then He said to them, “How is it that they say the Christ is David’s son? For David himself says in the book of Psalms,
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’
read more.

Matthew 12:9-14
Departing from there, He went into their synagogue. And a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse Him. And He said to them, “What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out?read more.

Mark 3:1-6
He entered again into a synagogue; and a man was there whose hand was withered. They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him. He *said to the man with the withered hand, “Get up and come forward!”read more.

Luke 6:6-11
On another Sabbath He entered the synagogue and was teaching; and there was a man there whose right hand was withered. The scribes and the Pharisees were watching Him closely to see if He healed on the Sabbath, so that they might find reason to accuse Him. But He knew what they were thinking, and He said to the man with the withered hand, “Get up and come forward!” And he got up and came forward.read more.

Matthew 21:24-27
Jesus said to them, “I will also ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I will also tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John was from what source, from heaven or from men?” And they began reasoning among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Then why did you not believe him?’ But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the people; for they all regard John as a prophet.”read more.

Mark 11:29-33
And Jesus said to them, “I will ask you one question, and you answer Me, and then I will tell you by what authority I do these things. Was the baptism of John from heaven, or from men? Answer Me.” They began reasoning among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say, ‘Then why did you not believe him?’read more.

Luke 20:3-8
Jesus answered and said to them, “I will also ask you a question, and you tell Me: Was the baptism of John from heaven or from men?” They reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say, ‘Why did you not believe him?’read more.

Luke 14:1-6
It happened that when He went into the house of one of the leaders of the Pharisees on the Sabbath to eat bread, they were watching Him closely. And there in front of Him was a man suffering from dropsy. And Jesus answered and spoke to the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath, or not?”read more.

Luke 7:36
Verse Concepts
Now one of the Pharisees was requesting Him to dine with him, and He entered the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table.

Mark 7:1-2
The Pharisees and some of the scribes gathered around Him when they had come from Jerusalem, and had seen that some of His disciples were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed.

Luke 11:37
Verse Concepts
Now when He had spoken, a Pharisee *asked Him to have lunch with him; and He went in, and reclined at the table.

Luke 13:31
Verse Concepts
Just at that time some Pharisees approached, saying to Him, “Go away, leave here, for Herod wants to kill You.”
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
cOLTER said:

When the Jewish authorities yelled “crucify, crucify” that means crucifixion. You are playing dumb I guess?

Whoever “they” were, they had the power to put Jesus through a sham trial, and hand him over to Pilate for execution.

Again from John 8

13The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”

In the course of the lengthy exchange:


Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would c do what Abraham did. 40As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the works of your own father.”


Matthew 16:1-4
The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus, they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven. But He replied to them, “When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’ And in the morning, ‘There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times?read more.

Mark 8:11-12
The Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, to test Him. Sighing deeply in His spirit, He *said, “Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation.”

Matthew 19:3-9
Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?” And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?read more.



0 seconds of 2 minutes, 10 seconds
This ad will end in 1

Mark 10:2-9
Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife. And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?” They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.”read more.


Matthew 22:15-22
Then the Pharisees went and plotted together how they might trap Him in what He said. And they *sent their disciples to Him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any. Tell us then, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?”read more.

Mark 12:13-17
Then they *sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Him in order to trap Him in a statement. They *came and *said to Him, “Teacher, we know that You are truthful and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any, but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to pay a poll-tax to Caesar, or not? Shall we pay or shall we not pay?” But He, knowing their hypocrisy, said to them, “Why are you testing Me? Bring Me a denarius to look at.”read more.

Luke 20:20-26
So they watched Him, and sent spies who pretended to be righteous, in order that they might catch Him in some statement, so that they could deliver Him to the rule and the authority of the governor. They questioned Him, saying, “Teacher, we know that You speak and teach correctly, and You are not partial to any, but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful for us to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?”read more.

Matthew 22:34-40
But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”read more.

Mark 12:28-34
One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’read more.

John 8:3-11
The scribes and the Pharisees *brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, they *said to Him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?”read more.

Mark 12:13-14
Then they *sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Him in order to trap Him in a statement. They *came and *said to Him, “Teacher, we know that You are truthful and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any, but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to pay a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?

Matthew 22:15-16
Then the Pharisees went and plotted together how they might trap Him in what He said. And they *sent their disciples to Him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any.

Matthew 12:38
Verse Concepts
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”

Matthew 22:34-36
But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”

Luke 7:39-40
Now when the Pharisee who had invited Him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet He would know who and what sort of person this woman is who is touching Him, that she is a sinner.” And Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” And he replied, “Say it, Teacher.”

Luke 19:39
Verse Concepts
Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.”

Luke 20:21
Verse Concepts
They questioned Him, saying, “Teacher, we know that You speak and teach correctly, and You are not partial to any, but teach the way of God in truth.

John 3:2
Verse Concepts
this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

John 8:3-4
The scribes and the Pharisees *brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, they *said to Him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.

Matthew 22:41-46
Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question: “What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?” They *said to Him, “The son of David.” He *said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying,read more.

Mark 12:35-40
And Jesus began to say, as He taught in the temple, “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? David himself said in the Holy Spirit,
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Until I put Your enemies beneath Your feet.”’
David himself calls Him ‘Lord’; so in what sense is He his son?” And the large crowd enjoyed listening to Him.read more.

Luke 20:41-44
Then He said to them, “How is it that they say the Christ is David’s son? For David himself says in the book of Psalms,
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’
read more.

Matthew 12:9-14
Departing from there, He went into their synagogue. And a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse Him. And He said to them, “What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out?read more.

Mark 3:1-6
He entered again into a synagogue; and a man was there whose hand was withered. They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him. He *said to the man with the withered hand, “Get up and come forward!”read more.

Luke 6:6-11
On another Sabbath He entered the synagogue and was teaching; and there was a man there whose right hand was withered. The scribes and the Pharisees were watching Him closely to see if He healed on the Sabbath, so that they might find reason to accuse Him. But He knew what they were thinking, and He said to the man with the withered hand, “Get up and come forward!” And he got up and came forward.read more.

Matthew 21:24-27
Jesus said to them, “I will also ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I will also tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John was from what source, from heaven or from men?” And they began reasoning among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Then why did you not believe him?’ But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the people; for they all regard John as a prophet.”read more.

Mark 11:29-33
And Jesus said to them, “I will ask you one question, and you answer Me, and then I will tell you by what authority I do these things. Was the baptism of John from heaven, or from men? Answer Me.” They began reasoning among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say, ‘Then why did you not believe him?’read more.

Luke 20:3-8
Jesus answered and said to them, “I will also ask you a question, and you tell Me: Was the baptism of John from heaven or from men?” They reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say, ‘Why did you not believe him?’read more.

Luke 14:1-6
It happened that when He went into the house of one of the leaders of the Pharisees on the Sabbath to eat bread, they were watching Him closely. And there in front of Him was a man suffering from dropsy. And Jesus answered and spoke to the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath, or not?”read more.

Luke 7:36
Verse Concepts
Now one of the Pharisees was requesting Him to dine with him, and He entered the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table.

Mark 7:1-2
The Pharisees and some of the scribes gathered around Him when they had come from Jerusalem, and had seen that some of His disciples were eating their bread with impure hands, that is, unwashed.

Luke 11:37
Verse Concepts
Now when He had spoken, a Pharisee *asked Him to have lunch with him; and He went in, and reclined at the table.

Luke 13:31
Verse Concepts
Just at that time some Pharisees approached, saying to Him, “Go away, leave here, for Herod wants to kill You.”
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I started out my career in education teaching history at the high school level as that was one of my majors, and anyone who has seriously studied history well knows that when reading "history", what they are reading on someone's take on what happened.

On top of that, attempting to objectify study and report history is a relatively modern phenomenon. If we go back a thousand years ago or more in Asia, objective history was subservient to subjective history as any serious theologian can tell you.

Thus, you may believe I'm "playing dumb", but I think if you ask any serious theologian about that they would not be inclined to take your side.
 
David Davidovich

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
Brickjectivity said:
I don't remember quoting from that nor quoting Ehav4ever. I use quote marks when I quote. Sorry for any wasted thought that may have caused.
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I see. So, what did you mean in this post below?

Brickjectivity said: ↑
That said
"the original Jewish Christians were so focused on the idea that their "end game" scenario was going to happen within their generation that they did not focus much on Torah, at a certain point. . ."


How can you expect to survive at all if you don't oppress and dominate everyone around you? That is true logical wisdom, but does Ehav4Ever agree with that? No
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Brickjectivity said:
David Davidovich said: ↑

Well, none of that answered my question, therefore, I would like to ask you again: How can you have a functioning society if I don't even enforce the laws of society and don't have adequate compensation for breaking the law?
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No society fully enforces all laws and remains. It simply does not work in my opinion. For example where I am employed we have a handbook of rules and regulations, but most of these are not followed. They are only used to excuse the higher ups from responsibility. They fain no knowledge of how we actually work, and if the spotlight is ever put upon them they can point to the book and say that we all agreed to follow the rules. That is reality. This is how things function. It has been the same to varying degrees in all jobs that I have had. Partly this is due to corruption and leaders who are incompetent or who are lazy etc., but partly it is because rules cannot create a society or a company or a corporate culture.

The finest ground gears still require lubricant, and so there is always waste. The rules never work without some slippage. Societies are not machines, but they share this in common with machines. They don't run by designs. They have to be cared for constantly. There is and will always be risk for the foreseeable future.

It is analogous to the story of manna. You can collect only enough manna for one or two days, but the manna spoils. It is analogous to the tent of meeting. When the revelation moves, you must take down the tent to follow it. It doesn't stay in your tent. You have to keep traipsing all over, following it about, eating from day to day.

A tree can live for a long time, but then it has to be replaced by a seed. No system can do better than that...so far.
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So then, are you saying that you can't have functioning society if you don't enforce the laws of society and don't have adequate compensation for breaking the law?

David Davidovich said: ↑

P.S. Also, could you specify which scripture that you were quoting in 2 Kings 6? Because the forum's profanity blocker blocked out some of your quote.
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So, what verse did you quote in 2 Kings?
 
David Davidovich

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
Brian2 said:
In the Kingdom of God.



Yes it's the Kingdom of God, where God's will is done.
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Well, I would ask: Well, why would God's Kingdom even have those laws in the first place, however, I would feel like I walked into a setup of criticizing the Jews' version of the Kingdom of God. ;)
 
David Davidovich

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
pearl said:
I agree. The Twelve are sent only to Israel. This saying may reflect an original Jewish Christian refusal of the mission to the Gentiles, but for Matthew it expresses rather the limitation that Jesus himself observed during his ministry. Mt10:5-6
He said in reply, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 15:24
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Interesting indeed.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
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click here: Matthew 10:5-6 NIV - These twelve Jesus sent out with the - Bible Gateway

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
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click here: Matthew 15:24 NIV - He answered, “I was sent only to the - Bible Gateway

Also, those verses would be an interesting topic for a thread, unless one has already been made.
 
David Davidovich

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
cOLTER said:
cOLTER said: ↑
The Jews who had Jesus put to death for his religion disagree with you.
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The Sanhedrin found Jesus guilty by majority vote. At the time it would require at least 23 Judges in the Sanhedrin to find guilt for the death penalty. Then we had Pilate hoping the mob would spare Jesus but there was that strange hatred for Jesus in the crowd that chose to free Barabas instead. So it is true, "he went to his own but his own did not receive him. Going forward Christianity was a tiny cult inside Jerusalem for a long time. Judaism thoroughly rejected Jesus. As predicted the light went West to a more receptive audience.
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So, you're lumping together every single Jew who was alive at that time and saying that they are the ones who put Jesus to death? Because that sounds like an awfully broad brush to me.
 
David Davidovich

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
URAVIP2ME said:
Equal justice was the Jewish meaning: Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21
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But I would say that unfortunately, that meaning isn't often (if at all) given to Christians, and most of them would interpret those verses as meaning exact equal compensation. Also, I would say that Jesus' use of those verses seemed to give the meaning that those verses are about retaliation, unless like you said, the Jews at that time had warped the meaning of the Torah law and Jesus was just going by the warped version of those verses in the way that most Jews were using them at the time. Although, to me, it seems as if that was being misleading on Jesus' part.
 
David Davidovich

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
pearl said:
Just as Jerusalem was the city of destiny in the Gospel of Luke (the place where salvation was accomplished), so here at the beginning of Acts, Jerusalem occupies a central position. It is the starting point for the mission of the Christian disciples to “the ends of the earth,” the place where the apostles were situated and the doctrinal focal point in the early days of the community. The ends of the earth: for Luke, this means Rome.
Keep in mind that the Gospels were written well after the Christianity was already established.
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So, what do you think the ends of the earth meant well after Christianity was already established in the first and second centuries?
 
David Davidovich

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
metis said:
The Church was and is the actual organization that Christ and the Apostles created, which both Acts and the epistles point out. It was not and is not some sort of loosey-goosey amalgamation of "just do your own thing". Jesus "taught with authority", as did the Apostles and as did and does the Church. It is the organization that selected your canon and evangelized throughout the known world. It is not perfect, but just a reminder that it wasn't perfect under Jesus either as the Gospels show.
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Actually, I heard differently as far as Jesus' true church being the organization that selected the NT canon. However, I suppose that's a topic for a different discussion.
 
Brian2

Brian2

Veteran Member
David Davidovich said:
Well, I would ask: Well, why would God's Kingdom even have those laws in the first place, however, I would feel like I walked into a setup of criticizing the Jews' version of the Kingdom of God. ;)
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Society has laws that help in the smooth running of that society and the wellbeing of the people.
In the case of the Laws of Moses Jesus said that nothing will be taken from them till all is accomplished. (Matt 5:18)
When all is accomplished the Kingdom of God will be set up on earth and in fact it was started 2000 years ago and it's citizens are given a higher calling. We are told to love and that love fulfils the law. God is love and God has freely forgiven us and wants us to forgive others.
Justice is one thing for the smoother running of societies on this earth but in the Kingdom of God we are to be like God and it is then that we will know just how much He has forgiven us and how much we should be forgiving others.
Just because there is a law that shows us what not to pass when it comes to being just, that does not mean that we should not go further and forgive instead of seeking justice.
 
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