most important word in the Bible?

*Paul* · Mar 13, 2007

wmam said:
wmam said:

Not after Yahshua shed His blood on the torture stake but those sacrifices did in fact act as a perpetuation for sins prior to His sacrifice.

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They acted only as a temporary propitiation as is clear from the fact they had to keep being repeated as the Writer of Hebrews says.

Your not understanding......... The key words here is "should have". We should have obeyed to begin with then there would have not been the need to cover our iniquities. Even now if one is purified then there is still sin lurking. One can still choose to sin.

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Heb 10v2: For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

The Author of Hebrews is here saying that if the sacrfice of animals was sufficient then it would have done the internal work of removing conscience for sins and then there would have need been no more. He is contrasting this with the sacrifice of Jesus which is able to do just this. This is both clear and obvious if you read it without prejudice. Just because we can still sin doesn't mean the sacrifice was incomplete, we are counted righteous in the sight of God, in Christ Jesus all who believe are justified from all things. What we do now is confess and repent of any future sin.
1Jn 1v8-9: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
In your system of belief there is no provision for future sin, so if you sin wilfully after receiving Christ Jesus you are damned for all time as there is no more sacrifice for sin.

Saul himself struggled with it........
But Saul should have listened to what Elohim had to say to Cain in the begining........
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

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He did listen:
Rom 7v22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7v12: Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
But He had an internal struggle as all believers do. He has the Spirit of God in him but also has to contend with and mortify his old flesh nature. Which is why we groan for the redemption of our bodies (at the rapture).
Rom 8v23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Elohim told Cain that he should rule over sin. Saul is struggling with sin. As is stated before, he "should have" no more conscience of sins but it is plain that he does. It doesn't say that one won't have but that they "should have not".

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You misunderstand Paul here he is struggling with sin in his flesh for the simple reason that he has been born again, he now has the Spirit of God in him and is involved in a battle familiar to all born again people:
Gal 5v17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
The fact however that Paul does not offer any further sacrifices for his sins but trusts in the complete atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ shows that he has no more conscience of sins before God. He strives for perfection within himself this he cannot help but do because he has the perfect Spirit of God in him and so can ever see how he is not yet perfect but groans within himself for the redemption of his body from the sin nature that is contained therin.
At the same time he knows and teaches that the body will be changed when Jesus appears and hopes for it, knowing that he is sealed until that day.
Eph 4v30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

1Cor 15v51-53: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Which John also teaches:
1Jn 3v2: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Until that day we have a battle for mortification which we will not always win, as Paul said, "ye cannot do the things that ye would."
We are held back by these bodies of flesh but we are sealed by the Spirit of God.

Yes, man said .... o.k. all I have to do is kill a goat or a lamb when I sin so I will sin and sacrifice and then sin again and get another sacrifice. Elohim got tired of this and took it from us as a means to cover sins for now.

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Becuase the sacrifce of animals could do nothing to change our inner man, that is why he replaced it with a new covenant that put God's Spirit within our hearts.

It is clear that man will take advantage of every situation if he sees he can gain something by it or is allowed to do as he wishes without having to answer for it.

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Sons of Adam do do this.

YAH allowed us a means and a ways to cover our trespasses against His will knowing that we weren't perfect, although we were created to be, man chose sin and with all the love of a Father, YAH gave us a way to show our sorrow and a way to repent for doing wrong but man took advantage of the Fathers love and thumbed his nose at Him so YAH took it from us but gave us another way.

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Which was promised from the start and planned before the world began.

This time all past sins are forgiven but from the time of forgiveness if one would do such sins knowingly then there is no forgiveness of sin. And as it is stated "every year", this is speaking of Yom Kippor. Day of Atonement.

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Then when you knowingly commit one transgression you have had it mate, you have nothing to look forward to but eternal hellfire. There is no more sacrifce for your sins, you must pay the penalty yourself - the agony of eternal seperation from God.

Again you misunderstand. In my last post I showed where the blood of animal sacrifices did just that and was commanded by the Most High to do.

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Yet you deny the clear statement made in the book of hebrews made to Christians.

You have taken what is meant to a certain audience of Hebrews that are here, after the shedding of blood by Yahshua, listening to Saul explain that continued sacrifices will do no more good. The "shadow of good things to come" are sacrifices that will be reinstated after the second coming with-in the new temple by the sons of Zadok.

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Then the sacrifice of the Son of God, by whom the universe was made was insufficient, but the perpetuation of mere animal sacrifices will be sufficent. The sacrifice made by an Eternal Being and therefore having eternal significance is not enough but the sacrifice of animals will be? The sacrifice of one who was able to represent all men as He became one of us is insufficent but the sacrifice of another species entirely will be sufficient so long as it is ongoing?
I'm sorry but you dishonour Jesus Christ, He need not have died at all, the cup could have passed from Him and been given to an animal.
Mt 26v39: And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

I will respond to the rest shortly.

*Paul* · Mar 13, 2007

JamesThePersian said:
By claiming to be Ebionite (though I must admit that I am completely unaware of that sect being revived - it died out in antiquity) that is exactly what astarath is saying. The Ebionites were basically Jews who held to the belief that Christ was the Messiah - they are the ones defeated at the Council of Jerusalem and who later were condemned as Judaisers.

James

From what I have seen on this site and some of my private correspondance a form of this is being revived under the guise of messianic Judaism. Though I don't know the ins and outs of the ebionite sect but "there is nothing new under the sun", all modern day heresies are simply re-hashes of ancient ones or at least have core aspects of them.

James the Persian · Mar 13, 2007

*Paul* said:
From what I have seen on this site and some of my private correspondance a form of this is being revived under the guise of messianic Judaism. Though I don't know the ins and outs of the ebionite sect but "there is nothing new under the sun", all modern day heresies are simply re-hashes of ancient ones or at least have core aspects of them.

Indeed, but I was referring to the name more than anything. Anyone who claims to be an Ebionite now is really neo-Ebionite just as modern gnostics are really neo-Gnostics, both heresies having long since died out - there is no continuity with the historical sects they associate with. If I actually described the number of ancient heresies I see re-hashed in modern groups I'd be liable to upset an awful lot of people but, as you say, there is nothing new under the sun.

The more worrying thing, from my perspective, is the number of modern Christians who aren't part of some way out group who appear to hold to heresies like modalism or the heresy of the Apellitae without realising that they even do so. I've been shocked quite a number of times by the beliefs expressed here and elsewhere that have been suggested to be normative Christianity and have been anything but.

James

*Paul* · Mar 13, 2007

wmam said:
wmam said:

This is where we really disagree. Yahshua was flesh and blood just like you and me but it was the Malak that dwelt with-in Him that came at Yahshua's purification. He came to do the will of the Most High YAH Elohim. And there is no evidence that prior to Yahshua's purification that He hadn't sinned. He was a man and for all men have sinned.

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I can see my mistake now I was reading what you wrote as though you were a Christian with differing opinions but your Christology proves otherwise (claiming that He sinned I mean) as does your idea that water removes purifies moral sin.
He may have been a man but HE was a man as God intended man to be before the fall (sinless).

I'll comment on this........
Sacrifice was offered by the laws of sacrifice to be a means and a ways to cover transgression. YAH gave law and if one broke a law then sacrifice was given to cover said breakage.

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Temporarily until the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world was done.

Again I will comment........
As I have stated prior, He took it away because we thumbed our noses at Him so He established another way which really is harder than the first because we are much more being made to take more responsibility for our actions.

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It wasn't because the old wasn't working but the fulness of times had come and that which was temporary was to be done away with:
Heb 8v12-13: For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Vanish away , decayeth not waiting for re-institution.
Gal 4v4: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Yes, for all past sins Elohim will remember no more (for all time) but as I have already posted.......
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

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This also does away with the idea of a re-institution of temple sacrifice, after all there is no more sacrifice for sins.

Hebrews 12:3-11 says that every Christian sins, and that instead of causing a loss of salvation, sin brings Gods chastening upon us as His children.

If when we sinned we ceased to be Gods children, He would have no one to chastiseyet he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
The writer is showing us that if we could lose our salvation, we could never get it back without Christ dying again upon the cross. The alternative is crazy! He would have to die an infinite number of times (i.e., every time every person who was once saved sinned and was lost and wanted to be "saved again"). Those who reject "once saved, always saved" can only replace it with "once lost, always lost"!
The catholics see this problem and that is why that one time sacrifice is represented again at every mass (in an unbloody manner of course).

You are so sadly mistaken if you think His work is done. He's coming back with a vengeance you know.

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I know that well, i simply meant the work of atonement which His first coming achieved.

James the Persian · Mar 13, 2007

*Paul* said:
He may have been a man but HE was a man as God intended man to be before the fall. That is why He was born of a virgin. That is why He is called the second Adam.

Not really. Not unless you mean after the Resurrection. What you suggest here is not the Christology as expressed by the early Church.

His birth from a virgin shows that he did not inherit adams sin nature

And this is why. This 'sin nature' thing that you talk of inheriting from Adam. I assume that by this you mean original sin? The Christology of the Ecumenical Councils has no truck with that idea, if that is the case. If, on the other hand, this is a strange way of saying fallen human nature, then traditional Christology is that Christ did indeed assume fallen human nature (had He not He couldn't have died at the Crucifixion for a start) as that which is not assumed is not saved.

I doubt that you're aware of quite how far from traditional Christology the view you have expressed here appears to have strayed, but I'd be interested to know if you actually meant what I understood from your post. If so could you explain how Christ's human nature was mortal and subject to the possibility of temptation if it was not fallen?

James

*Paul* · Mar 13, 2007

JamesThePersian said:
JamesThePersian said:

The more worrying thing, from my perspective, is the number of modern Christians who aren't part of some way out group who appear to hold to heresies like modalism

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I've noticed this one a lot too, even by people I consider as being of like faith, I think (or hope) that is just a problem putting into words the truth of the trinity.

or the heresy of the Apellitae without realising that they even do so.

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I've not seen this one around as much though the JWS believe (or maybe used to) something similar. Though I am clueless as to how such a conclusion can be gotten to from just reading the bible? May God keep me in His grace from such delusions.

I've been shocked quite a number of times by the beliefs expressed here and elsewhere that have been suggested to be normative Christianity and have been anything but.
James

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I guess you would include me in that, but I do sincerely believe that the beleifs I have are from the teachings of the Apostles, Jesus and the prophets. If shown otherwise I will drop them like a poisonous snake and recant with true sorrow and sincerity. I do not want to hold to any thing that is not taught in scripture but if I feel it is I am bound by my conscience to follow it. Here I stand, I can do no other.

James the Persian · Mar 13, 2007

*Paul* said:
I guess you would include me in that, but I do sincerely believe that the beleifs I have are from the teachings of the Apostles, Jesus and the prophets. If shown otherwise I will drop them like a poisonous snake and recant with true sorrow and sincerity. I do not want to hold to any thing that is not taught in scripture but if I feel it is I am bound my conscience to follow it. Here I stand, I can do no other.

Not really, no. In the main your beliefs seem reasonably free of ancient heresies, at least so far as I've seen. The Christology you mentioned above is a little peculiar unless I misunderstood what you meant and of course you hold to some rather recent doctrines that I would consider heretical, but the things that I was referring to were doctrines like those of the Arians, Sabellians, Pneumatomachists, Monophysites, Nestorians etc. ad infinitum. I haven't yet seen any evidence of you following any of those, unwittingly or otherwise.

James

*Paul* · Mar 13, 2007

JamesThePersian said:
JamesThePersian said:

Not really. Not unless you mean after the Resurrection. What you suggest here is not the Christology as expressed by the early Church.

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Yes you are right. The context of the Second Adam is the ressurected Christ. That is why we shall be in His image in the ressurection "we shall be like Him" not like the first which Jesus came in the likeness of.
Rom 8v3: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

If, on the other hand, this is a strange way of saying fallen human nature, then traditional Christology is that Christ did indeed assume fallen human nature (had He not He couldn't have died at the Crucifixion for a start) as that which is not assumed is not saved.

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Yes I do agree with that:
Heb 4v15: For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

I doubt that you're aware of quite how far from traditional Christology the view you have expressed here appears to have strayed,

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I am now. :cover:

but I'd be interested to know if you actually meant what I understood from your post. If so could you explain how Christ's human nature was mortal and subject to the possibility of temptation if it was not fallen?

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No I can't, what I have said was wrong:
Heb 4v15: For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
For Christ to redeem fallen man and reconcile fallen man to God He had to represent both sides, fallen man and God and be an at-one-ment.

I think I need to re-study this to flush out this strange idea I managed to get. I know exactly what is right here but somehow I have combined two very different ideas, Actually I don't know what I did. But I know full well and always have done that Jesus was a partaker of our nature, of course He was! If were impossible for Him to sin then His resistance to sin could hardy be a victory could it?

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wmam · Mar 13, 2007

*Paul* said:
They acted only as a temporary propitiation as is clear from the fact they had to keep being repeated as the Writer of Hebrews says.

Temporary huh? Sacrifices and offerings were given since Cain and Abel. I see nothing that states that it was temporary but commanded by the Most High.

*Paul* said:
Heb 10v2: For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

The Author of Hebrews is here saying that if the sacrifice of animals was sufficient then it would have done the internal work of removing conscience for sins and then there would have need been no more. He is contrasting this with the sacrifice of Jesus which is able to do just this. This is both clear and obvious if you read it without prejudice. Just because we can still sin doesn't mean the sacrifice was
incomplete, we are counted righteous in the sight of God, in Christ Jesus all who believe are justified from all things. What we do now is confess and repent of any future sin.

The Author of Hebrews is, in reality, telling other Hebrews that once that gained knowledge of the will of YAH and saw the sin for what it was, and was of a pure mind and was sorrowful for what they had done, then they after sacrifice "should have no more conscience of" the sins they did but rather abstain from them knowing now that they are against the will of YAH. Yahshua's sacrifice was complete and whole for what it was meant for and nothing more. It is both very clear and obvious for those that can see. There is nothing new under the sun for His sacrifice covers the sins of the righteous.

*Paul* said:
1Jn 1v8-9: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Yes, but lets make sure we put this in the correct context here. Are you saying if we sin willfully that this is done so if a man knows it is a sin to steal but does it anyways then all he has to do is as for forgiveness? This is not what scripture says. It is what you seem to profess though.

*Paul* said:
In your system of belief there is no provision for future sin, so if you sin wilfully after receiving Christ Jesus you are damned for all time as there is no more sacrifice for sin.

First of all lets get something straight...........

I didn't write ...............

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, And the "system", as you call it, that I follow is that of YAH's.

Now........

One shouldn't be so blind as to miss the key word here which is "wilfully". Did not Helel do what He did wilfully? With your "system" of belief one could go out and kill and destroy all that he desires knowingly and then just ask for forgiveness. YAH will not listen to his cries for help for it is written that the prayers of the wicked are an abomination unto Him.

*Paul* said:
He did listen:

Rom 7v22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7v12: Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

But He had an internal struggle as all believers do. He has the Spirit of God in him but also has to contend with and mortify his old flesh nature. Which is why we groan for the redemption of our bodies (at the rapture).

Rom 8v23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

You misunderstand Paul here he is struggling with sin in his flesh for the simple reason that he has been born again, he now has the Spirit of God in him and is involved in a battle familiar to all born again people:

Gal 5v17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
The fact however that Paul does not offer any further sacrifices for his sins but trusts in the complete atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ shows that he has no more conscience of sins before God. He strives for perfection within himself this he cannot help but do because he has the perfect Spirit of God in him and so can ever see how he is not yet perfect but groans within himself for the redemption of his body from the sin nature that is contained therein. At the same time he knows and teaches that the body will be changed when Jesus appears and hopes for it, knowing that he is sealed until that day.

Eph 4v30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Well I can only agree with what is truth and some of what you state is while other parts are not. I see allot of back peddling here. One is you claim that once one is saved that they will have no more conscience of sin but rather they do and struggle with it but because they believe they don't? This doesn't make any sense what so ever. Truth is what I have already showed, which is fact based, with-in scripture itself without any of mans thoughts or feelings. Nothing added to nor taken away from. No
offense, and hope that you are mature enough to know the difference, but I do strongly disagree with you. Not that this would come to you as any great surprise or anything.

*Paul* said:
1Cor 15v51-53: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Yes, this is truth. Not all will sleep in the grave for all those that are chosen at the return of Yahshua will be transfigured at the twinkling of an eye. Those that are left may die and sleep in the grave with the others that are not asleep we the testimony of Yahshua. They will be raised on that great last day where all men will be judged other than those that were taking in the first resurrection. So it is true that all will
be changed. Its just that not all will get to be in the Kingdom. Most will be thrown in the lake. You know........at that big B-B-Q.

*Paul* said:
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Which John also teaches:

1Jn 3v2: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Cor 15:51-53 as well as 1Jn 3:2 are speaking on the first resurrection of the chosen saints. Our bodies are corruptible and need to be transfigured. Those that sin wilfully will not be a part of this first resurrection but will be transfigured at the second. This means that those that go then may have to wait in line while standing besides the likes of Jeffery Dalmer and Adolph Hitler. They will have the books opened on them to see if there good works, which are the works of the law, out weigh that of their sins, which is the transgression of the law. If their transgression are more then they get to go take a dip while the others may be allowed into the Kingdom.

*Paul* said:
Until that day we have a battle for mortification which we will not always win, as Paul said, "ye cannot do the things that ye would." We are held back by these bodies of flesh but we are sealed by the Spirit of God.

Its the "WE" part that so many fool themselves with. What a rude awakening it is going to be.

wmam · Mar 13, 2007

*Paul* said:
Because the sacrifice of animals could do nothing to change our inner man, that is why he replaced it with a new covenant that put God's Spirit within our hearts.

I agree that any sacrifice is not going to change a man if they so choose to continue in sin. A heart is nothing more than a muscle to pump blood and has no thought faculty's but a mind is different. Those who want it will work for it but the spirit you speak of is simple when you look at it as the word of YAH. If you work for it, sure the spirit of the word will fill your mind and you will be sealed with it if you have been given the true ability to discern the truth and correct context of it. Otherwise it is
worthless to you. You end up with the spirit of lies which will lead you unto udder damnation. And as far as the new covenant goes, there is nothing new under the sun. It was only the process that was changed. There was still a blood sacrifice and a Priest still stands before YAH making intercession for us. We just don't have the luxury of killing an animal every time we want to sin. Yahshua died once and we can't kill Him again for.......

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

An adversary is one that hates YAH. How does one hate YAH? He disobeys Him. Why is this so? What is the opposite of hate if not love? How doe we love YAH?

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of Elohim, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

*Paul* said:
Then when you knowingly commit one transgression you have had it mate, you have nothing to look forward to but eternal hellfire. There is no more sacrifice for your sins, you must pay the penalty yourself - the agony of eternal separation from God.

Yes, as is written. If one "WILFULLY" commits sin. For one to wilfully disobey their Father wouldn't one think that and all loving and just Father wouldn't punish such wilfull disobedience? No where did one state that just because you wilfully committed a sin that you were automatically going to the lake of fire. If you are one who after learning and becoming made aware of the laws of the Most High YAH Elohim decide that you are going to practice sin without remorse and basically become a total
reprobate then yes you are stubble for the flames. If you on the other hand are found to do sin but it isn't your nature to do so and are completely sorry and repent with a pure heart/mind for your actions then it will go as it did for King David. BUT!!!!!!!! You will still be punished. He was.

*Paul* said:
Yet you deny the clear statement made in the book of Hebrews made to Christians.

LOL....... The book of Hebrews was written to Hebrews. None of the original Apostles nor Yahshua Himself was ever called "christians". In fact Saul was accused of being a ringleader of that certain sect of Nazarenes.

I do not deny what is truth. Many others rather accept the thoughts and feelings of man than that of their Creator. I am not one of them.

*Paul* said:
Then the sacrifice of the Son of God

If you are referring to Yahshua then He didn't become the only begotten until His death and resurrection.

*Paul* said:
, by whom the universe was made

Yahshua did not make the universe. Elohim did.

*Paul* said:
was insufficient, but the perpetuation of mere animal sacrifices will be sufficient.

Whatever YAH states will be sufficient will be sufficient. In the beginning there was no need for sacrifice. Then man messed up. Then there was a need for blood to be shed for the covering of our mess up and animals was commanded by YAH as the vehicle. Then man messed up. Now that animals has been taken away from us we have no more sacrifice for sins once we accept truth. If we continue to get this wrong and mess up then His patience is going to run out and we will get the chance to go
skinny dipping at the BBQ.

*Paul* said:
The sacrifice made by an Eternal Being and therefore having eternal significance is not enough but the sacrifice of animals will be?

Do you not know scripture? What you just stated is in opposition to the word of YAH.

Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

It is against the word of the Most High to say that by an Eternal being we are saved when it is written that it will be through a "MAN". Yahshua was the man that YAH used to do the saving. For YAH is the Saviour. All praise and Glory to Him.

*Paul* said:
The sacrifice of one who was able to represent all men as He became one of us is insufficient but the sacrifice of another species entirely will be sufficient so long as it is ongoing?

Your lost. Yahshua was a man of flesh and blood which at the time of His purification was possessed by a Malak (Spirit) which did most of all the talking and the actions from that point on. The Malak with-in Yahshua did not suffer a sacrifice. Yahshua suffered the sacrifice which was a man of flesh and blood from birth until death.

*Paul* said:
I'm sorry but you dishonor Jesus Christ, He need not have died at all, the cup could have passed from Him and been given to an animal.

Mt 26v39: And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Well I'm sorry, and apologize, for your misunderstanding of the truth and ask that Father YAH open your eyes to the truth if it be His will to do so and according to your own righteousness.

wmam · Mar 13, 2007

*Paul* said:
I can see my mistake now I was reading what you wrote as though you were a Christian with differing opinions but your Christology proves otherwise (claiming that He sinned I mean) as does your idea that water removes purifies moral sin. He may have been a man but HE was a man as God intended man to be before the fall (sinless).

LOLOLOLOL....... I made no such claims and I would appreciate if you wouldn't libel me with your post. I simply stated that there wasn't any proof otherwise. Though it is written.......

2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

As far as water is concerned........

It does as is written in the correct context.

*Paul* said:
Temporarily until the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world was done.

Lev 22:21 And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto YAH to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.

I did a search of the entire Bible (KJV) and the only place that the two words "Perfect" and "Sacrifice" occurred was here. Looks like we already had a perfect sacrifice where it pertained to peace offerings.

*Paul* said:
It wasn't because the old wasn't working but the fulness of times had come and that which was temporary was to be done away with:

Not done away with but rather put aside for a time.

*Paul* said:
Heb 8v12-13: For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.Vanish away , decayeth not waiting for re-institution.

It decays with repetition but will be re-instated........

Eze 43:19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Adon YAH, a young bullock for a sin offering.
Eze 43:20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.
Eze 43:21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.
Eze 43:22 And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.
Eze 43:23 When thou hast made an end of cleansing it, thou shalt offer a young bullock without blemish, and a ram out of the flock without blemish.
Eze 43:24 And thou shalt offer them before YAH, and the priests shall cast salt upon them, and they shall offer them up for a burnt offering unto YAH.
Eze 43:25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
Eze 43:26 Seven days shall they purge the altar and purify it; and they shall consecrate themselves.
Eze 43:27 And when these days are expired, it shall be, that upon the eighth day, and so forward, the priests shall make your burnt offerings upon the altar, and your peace offerings; and I will accept you, saith Adon YAH.
Eze 44:11 Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.
Eze 44:15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith Adon YAH:
Eze 44:27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith Adon YAH.
Eze 44:29 They shall eat the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs.
Eze 45:15 And one lamb out of the flock, out of two hundred, out of the fat pastures of Israel; for a meat offering, and for a burnt offering, and for peace offerings, to make reconciliation for them, saith Adon YAH.

Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc.

It is the shadow of good things to come.

*Paul* said:
Gal 4v4: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

For all men are considered sons of Elohim for He made all men but Yahshua was the only begotten when He was resurrected.

*Paul* said:
This also does away with the idea of a re-institution of temple sacrifice, after all there is no more sacrifice for sins.

Your so sadly mistaken. Open your eyes.

*Paul* said:
Hebrews 12:3-11 says that every Christian sins, and that instead of causing a loss of salvation, sin brings Gods chastening upon us as His children.
If when we sinned we ceased to be Gods children, He would have no one to chastiseyet he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

No, I agree that He corrects His Children but for those that defy Him and has a wilfull disregard for Him are those that is spoken of in...........

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the testimony of the Anointed: for it is the power of Elohim unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Hebrew first, and also to the Gentile.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of Elohim revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of Elohim is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of Elohim is manifest in them; for Elohim hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew Elohim, they glorified him not as Elohim, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible Elohim into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore Elohim also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of Elohim into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause Elohim gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain Elohim in their knowledge, Elohim gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of Elohim, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of Elohim, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

*Paul* said:
The writer is showing us that if we could lose our salvation, we could never get it back without Christ dying again upon the cross. The alternative is crazy! He would have to die an infinite number of times (i.e., every time every person who was once saved sinned and was lost and wanted to be "saved again"). Those who reject "once saved, always saved" can only replace it with "once lost, always lost"!

This is true but man has freewill and can and has chosen to wilfully disobey. The truth of YAH's word tells me that those type's will get to enter into that great diving contest at the BBQ.

*Paul* said:
The catholics see this problem and that is why that one time sacrifice is represented again at every mass (in an unbloody manner of course).

o.k.

*Paul* said:
I know that well, i simply meant the work of atonement which His first coming achieved.

Really? Well I read.........

Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is the Anointed that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of Elohim, who also maketh intercession for us.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Heb 9:24 For the Anointed is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of Elohim for us:

He does this each Yom Kippor for the saints.

*Paul* · Mar 14, 2007

wmam said:
wmam said:

Temporary huh? Sacrifices and offerings were given since Cain and Abel. I see nothing that states that it was temporary but commanded by the Most High.

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To show that one was needed, this however is not a desirable condition to be perpetuated and was fulfilled in Christ Jesus. He was the final victim the ultimate one there is no need for any other victims. It is finished, we now have peace with God.

The Author of Hebrews is, in reality, telling other Hebrews that once that gained knowledge of the will of YAH and saw the sin for what it was, and was of a pure mind and was sorrowful for what they had done, then they after sacrifice "should have no more conscience of" the sins they did but rather abstain from them knowing now that they are against the will of YAH.

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No. :no:
The writer havingshowmn that the tabernacle, and ordinances of the covenant of Sinai, were only types of the gospel, concludes that the sacrifices the high priests offered continually, could not perfect, with respct to pardon, and the purifying of their consciences. But when "God manifested in the flesh," became the sacrifice, and his death upon calvarys cross, then the Sufferer being of infinite worth, his free-will sufferings were of infinite value. The atoning sacrifice must be one capable of consenting, and must of his own will place himself in the sinner's place: Christ Jesus did just this.
The righteousness brought in, and thesacrifice once offered by Christ, are of eternal power, and his salvation shall never be done away. They are of power to make all the comers thereunto perfect; they derive from the atoning blood, strength and motives for obedience, and inward comfort.
Infact the idea is, that the very fact that they were repeated showed that there was some deficiency in them as to the matter of cleansing the soul from sin. If they had answered all the purposes of a sacrifice in putting away guilt, there would have been no need of repeating them in this manner. They were, in fact, like medicine. If that which is given to a patient heals him, there is no need of repeating it right?; but if it is repeated often it shows that there was some deficiency in it doesn't it?, and if taken periodically through a man's life, and the disease should still remain, it would show that it was not sufficient to effect his cure wouldn't it?. So it was with the offerings made by the Jews. They were offered every year, every day, and still the plague of sin remained. The conscience was not cleansed; and the guilty felt that it was necessary that the sacrifice should be repeated again and again, if their sacrifices had so availed as to remove their past sins, and to procure forgiveness, they would have had no more trouble of conscience on account of them. They would not have felt that it was necessary to make these sacrifices over and over again in order to find peace.
When a man has full evidence that an atonement has been-made which will meet all the demands of the law such as Jesus made, and which secures the remission of sin as promised in the gospel, he feels that it is enough. It is all that the case demands, and his conscience has peace. But when he does not feel this, or has not evidence that his sins are all forgiven, those sins will rise to remembrance, and he will be alarmed. He may be punished for them after all. SO if a man wants peace he should have good evidence that his sins are forgiven through the blood of the atonement. No temporary expedient; no attempt to cover them up; no effort to forget them will heal his conscience. They must be blotted out if he will have peace--and that can be only through a perfect sacrifice.

Yahshua's sacrifice was complete and whole for what it was meant for and nothing more. It is both very clear and obvious for those that can see. There is nothing new under the sun for His sacrifice covers the sins of the righteous.

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Yes permanently if the sacrifces of animals could suffice at all then He need not have suffered so.

Yes, but lets make sure we put this in the correct context here. Are you saying if we sin willfully that this is done so if a man knows it is a sin to steal but does it anyways then all he has to do is as for forgiveness? This is not what scripture says. It is what you seem to profess though.

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Are you saying you have lived a perfect and sinless life since you were born again? You have never knowingly told a lie, lusted after a woman / man, you have never stolen anything even of minimal value, even your employers time for example? Did Paul live a sinless life after his salvation? You already quoted Romans 7. WHat about htis man:
2Cor 2v6: Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
2Cor 2v7: So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
2Cor 2v8: Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
2Cor 2v9: For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
2Cor 2v10: To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
Did he need another sacrifice? On what grounds could Paul say to forgive him?
What if Jezebel had repented? There was no temple at this time.
Rv 2v20: Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Rv 2v21: And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
No it is apparent that genuine repentance is enough, God knows if it is genuine or an attempt to escape judgement. Paul admits to sinning and that with knowledge
Rom 7v15: For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Is he damned? There is no more sacrifice for sin ofr him but a certain fearful looking for judgement.

One shouldn't be so blind as to miss the key word here which is "wilfully". Did not Helel do what He did wilfully? With your "system" of belief one could go out and kill and destroy all that he desires knowingly and then just ask for forgiveness.

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No, it would be proof that the SPirit of God is not in Him, that is a misrepresnation of salvation by faith alone. A Christian is not free to sin as they please, they are partakers of the divine nature, their affections and desires are changed but body of flesh must be mortified, sometimes they are overcome but it hurts them, it grieves them, they can not go on living in that way.

One is you claim that once one is saved that they will have no more conscience of sin but rather they do and struggle with it but because they believe they don't? This doesn't make any sense what so ever.

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They have no conscince of the guilt of it before God, the at-one-ment as removed that, but as they have the divine life of God in them they are ever driven to perfection by God's Spirit, they want to be free from all works of the flesh in their lives and anything that falls short of the mark.

Its just that not all will get to be in the Kingdom. Most will be thrown in the lake. You know........at that big B-B-Q.

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Callous.

They will have the books opened on them to see if there good works, which are the works of the law, out weigh that of their sins, which is the transgression of the law. If their transgression are more then they get to go take a dip while the others may be allowed into the Kingdom.

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Rom 4v6: Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4v7: Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4v8: Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Its the "WE" part that so many fool themselves with. What a rude awakening it is going to be.

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You appear to be looking forward to it.

*Paul* · Mar 14, 2007

wmam said:
You end up with the spirit of lies which will lead you unto udder damnation.

What did the cows do wrong?

And as far as the new covenant goes, there is nothing new under the sun. It was only the process that was changed. There was still a blood sacrifice and a Priest still stands before YAH making intercession for us.

Yes, intercession if we sin. No need for any further sacrifice there.

We just don't have the luxury of killing an animal every time we want to sin.

A Christian doesn't want to sin at all.

Yahshua died once and we can't kill Him again for.......
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

You don't seem to realise that this is talking of apostasy which is the context of most of the epistle as these Christians were suffering heavy persection. The verse preceeding it is encouraging the believers not to stop meeting together. The chapter following it is reminding the CHristians of the faithfull martyrs of years gone by. And then the next chapter encouraging them to bear the reproach of Jesus rather than being ashamed of Him and denying Him:
Heb 12v1: Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12v2: Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12v3: For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12v4: Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
You seem to overlook the purpose of the whole epistle, it wasn't to scare the Christians to death of commiting a single sin after they had recieved a knowledge of the truth, it is to encourage them to keep the faith under the persecution they are facing and warning them of the dire consequences of apostasy for:
Mt 10v33: But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
This is much more consistent with the rest of scripture. The idea is, that if there was voluntary apostasy after having embraced the Christian religion, there could be nothing but an expectation of the judgment to come. There could be no other hope but that through the gospel, and as this would have been renounced, it would follow that the soul must perish.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of Elohim, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Do you keep them pefectly? Do you love the Lord your God with ALL your heart? And your neighbour as you self? The later is not apparent in your posts when you callously refer to them taking a dip (in the lake of fire) at being at the B-B-Q (Burning on the fire). Remember these must be done perfectly, anything less than that is missing the mark or falling short.

We strive to keep Gods commandment always, we are grieevd when we don't keep them perfectly aand God has made provision when we fall short:
1Jn 1v9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1v10: If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2v1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And remember:
1Jn 5v16: If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5v17: All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Yes, as is written. If one "WILFULLY" commits sin.

After recieving a knoweldge of Christ and being born again all sin is willful if it is to mean what you say it means for we have the law written on our hearts:
Heb 8v10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
So one sin and you've had it mate.

For one to wilfully disobey their Father wouldn't one think that and all loving and just Father wouldn't punish such wilfull disobedience?

Yes:
Heb 12v5: And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12v6: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Chastening and rebuke, not damnation.

No where did one state that just because you wilfully committed a sin that you were automatically going to the lake of fire. If you are one who after learning and becoming made aware of the laws of the Most High YAH Elohim decide that you are going to practice sin without remorse and basically become a total
reprobate then yes you are stubble for the flames.

Now you are adding, without remorse, practice sin and become a total reprobate. This is not what you proof verse says though. It says If we sin willfully, it says nothing about quantity of sin. It is obvious that it was not intended in this way.

If you on the other hand are found to do sin but it isn't your nature to do so and are completely sorry and repent with a pure heart/mind for your actions then it will go as it did for King David. BUT!!!!!!!! You will still be punished. He was.

The wages of sin is deat

LOL....... The book of Hebrews was written to Hebrews. None of the original Apostles nor Yahshua Himself was ever called "christians". In fact Saul was accused of being a ringleader of that certain sect of Nazarenes.

Hebrew Christians, no different to me except by heritage for, what appkied to them applies to me:
Col 3v10: And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3v11: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
I do not deny what is truth. Many others rather accept the thoughts and feelings of man than that of their Creator. I am not one of them.

If we continue to get this wrong and mess up then His patience is going to run out and we will get the chance to go skinny dipping at the BBQ.

1Jn 2v6: He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Do you not know scripture? What you just stated is in opposition to the word of YAH.
It is against the word of the Most High to say that by an Eternal being we are saved when it is written that it will be through a "MAN". Yahshua was the man that YAH used to do the saving. For YAH is the Saviour. All praise and Glory to Him.

Micah 5v2: But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Also you are saying it is against the word of Jehovah to say we are saved by an Eternal being then you say that Jehovah is the saviour.

Is He not eternal?

Your lost. Yahshua was a man of flesh and blood which at the time of His purification was possessed by a Malak (Spirit) which did most of all the talking and the actions from that point on. The Malak with-in Yahshua did not suffer a sacrifice. Yahshua suffered the sacrifice which was a man of flesh and blood from birth until death.

Jesus was holy from birth:
Lk 1v35: And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God
He was also a Savior and Lord (Said the angel)
Lk 2v11: For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
But how can this be since:
Hosea 13v4: Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Well I'm sorry, and apologize, for your misunderstanding of the truth and ask that Father YAH open your eyes to the truth if it be His will to do so and according to your own righteousness.[/quote]Not according to my own righteousness but:
Ti 3v4-6: But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Phil 3v9: And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

*Paul* · Mar 14, 2007

wmam said:
wmam said:

LOLOLOLOL.......

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Is this catching?

Though it is written.......

2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

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What has solomon got to do with this?

As far as water is concerned........
It does as is written in the correct context.

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Physical water removes moral or spirtual evil?

Lev 22:21 And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto YAH to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.
I did a search of the entire Bible (KJV) and the only place that the two words "Perfect" and "Sacrifice" occurred was here. Looks like we already had a perfect sacrifice where it pertained to peace offerings.

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Well it was my phrase.
Heb 5v9: And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Heb 9v26: For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
A concept clearly found in scripture, but you just want to be pedantic.

Eze 43:19-45v15
Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc.
It is the shadow of good things to come.

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Is there any reason why this doesn't refer to the second temple, or it is possible that they might exist with a retrospective reference to Christ's sufferings, as the Levitical sacrifices had a prospective reference to them; not propitiatory in themselves, but memorials to keep up the remembrance of His propitiatory sufferings, which form the foundation of His kingdom, lest they should be lost sight of in the glory of that kingdom [DE BURGH] JFB

No, I agree that He corrects His Children but for those that defy Him and has a wilfull disregard for Him are those that is spoken of in...........
Rom 1:16-32

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These only knew God as creator not as personal Saviour.

This is true but man has freewill and can and has chosen to wilfully disobey. The truth of YAH's word tells me that those type's will get to enter into that great diving contest at the BBQ.

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How can you think of this in such terms as though it is funny or trivial. I will most quite have family in there, does everyone who you love get to avoid this fate? Just thouhg it is, it is not pleasurable and God paid a heavy price for this fate to be avoided. Have some respect for the grief it must cause God even if you have none of your own.

Ernestine · Mar 26, 2007

I believe that most important word in the Bible is God's name, "JEHOVAH". Jehovah says many times over that "the nations shall know that I am Jehovah". When we say the Lord's Prayer, we pray that God name be sanctified. Unfortunately, Jehovah's name has been removed from many versions of the Bible and replaced with "Lord" or "God". Neither of those terms give him the reverence he is due.

Quagmire · Mar 26, 2007

I would have to vote for "listen".

Scuba Pete · Mar 26, 2007

Agape or Love.

In or out of context it's meaning is clear. It defines God, as in God is Love. It defines Christianity, though not most modern Christians.

may · Apr 10, 2007

*Paul* said:
Do you know, when i saw that you had responded on this thread I knew what you had put, i'm glad you didn't dissapoint.

(Psalm 68:4) Sing you to God, make melody to his name; Raise up [a song] to the One riding through the desert plains As Jah, which is his name; and jubilate before him;:bow:

Bishka · Apr 10, 2007

"Remember"

kateyes · Apr 10, 2007

BELIEVE

most important word in the Bible?

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Jesus loves you

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Jesus loves you

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Jesus loves you

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Le plongeur avec attitude...

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