The Remains of Christ

Papersock said:

If Jesus was able to forgive sins while he was alive, why did he have to sacrifice himself? H could have said something like: "I forgive all of you of your sins. If you sin again, I will forgive you again, even after I am dead."

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Good question papersock....good question.

Another question is that a body, unless it was mummified, wouldn't even be bones after 2000+ years would it? I mean wouldn't it be dust? Let's say the remains were mummified, even if DNA tests were done, to whom would they be compared to? There are no known descendants of Maryam or Isa alive today. I fail to understand how the acquisition of DNA proves anything without living relatives to test. It all seems very shaky to me. It just so happens that someone finds what appears to be definitive proof that

a) The Davinci Code was right about the relationship between Isa and Mary Magdalene

b) Isa was killed, but the resurrection is proven to be false, thereby discounting Christianity altogether, and even impacts Islam to a similar degree. Muslims do not believe Isa died at all, so to find his remains "prooves" Quran "wrong".


Not that I thought you guys were worried, but to all Christians I wouldn't give this much thought. Seems mighty odd that such a tomb would be found with just the perfect little info in it, to support people's claims. I doubt the whole thing.


I would like to add though, that finding living descendants of Maryam might not be impossible. Didn't she have other children besides Isa? I seem to remember something about that. If so, then they would be related to Isa technically since he did have Maryam as a physical mom. Even in that case, how could it all be proven? Suppose those aren't Isa's remains at all, but the people they find match the DNA they attribute to Isa. That would only prove those people are descendants of the guy, but it wouldn't prove that the dead guy was in fact Isa as they suppose.

Papersock said:

If Jesus was able to forgive sins while he was alive, why did he have to sacrifice himself? H could have said something like: "I forgive all of you of your sins. If you sin again, I will forgive you again, even after I am dead."

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Because the whole point behind the mythos is that Jesus performed the ultimate sacrifice. I don't want to get into the whole point behind it, because quite frankly I think it's the most bizarre basis for a religion, but for christians, it was the act of great sacrifice that makes the gift of forgiveness so profound. Without the big grandstand of his sacrifice, no one would have paid much attention. Jesus may have been a phenomenon in his own time, but do you think anyone would remember him in three generations otherwise? He'd vaquely fall into the religious equivalent to Bloody Mary. "I hear that if you confess your sins and say this guy's name, you get forgiven and go to heaven!" It just doesn't have the lasting impact that valiant self sacrifice does.

Think of it this way - We have had no change to the law regarding animal cruelty charges in Canada since the laws were written in 1892. Every now and then there would be grumblings about the meager penalties someone who abused an animal would have to pay - the longest possible sentence for cruel and malicious torture and murder is 2 years. Recently in Alberta a dog was beaten repeatedly with a shovel, run over, and then the dog's broken body was tied behind a truck with a bag over her head and dragged down the street. Somehow, the dog survived until it was found (the idiots dragged the body home, and the blood trail was followed to the house), and when the police arrived they had to put the dog out of its unbelievable suffering then and there.

This dog, Daisy Duke, has become the Canadian canine equivalent of Jesus. with her brutal suffering and death, she has rallied a huge amount of people to her cause. Yeah, everyone talks a good game about animal rights and cruelty laws, but it took this huge, gruesome "sacrifice" to draw media attention and public outrage.

Same goes for Jesus. Without the sacrifice, the blessing of forgiveness was shallow and taken for granted.

CelticRavenwolf said:

Because the whole point behind the mythos is that Jesus performed the ultimate sacrifice. I don't want to get into the whole point behind it, because quite frankly I think it's the most bizarre basis for a religion, but for christians, it was the act of great sacrifice that makes the gift of forgiveness so profound. Without the big grandstand of his sacrifice, no one would have paid much attention. Jesus may have been a phenomenon in his own time, but do you think anyone would remember him in three generations otherwise? He'd vaquely fall into the religious equivalent to Bloody Mary. "I hear that if you confess your sins and say this guy's name, you get forgiven and go to heaven!" It just doesn't have the lasting impact that valiant self sacrifice does.

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That makes some sense. But couldn't he have been remembered by his miracles and by healing a ton of people? I don't think the main purpose of being sacrificed was to be remembered, but to actually take on the sins of everyone. At least, that's what I've been taught. I suppose it could have been for both.

A common greeting of early, (first and second century) Christians was, one person would say, "Christ is risen!" and the other would reply, "Christ is risen indeed!" I believe the witness of the apostles, that Christ rose from the grave, in His physical body, and now sits at the right hand of God the Father. Each of these died proclaiming this. NOBODY would die for something they KNEW was a lie!

Jesus' spiritual body is what should be of significance. It is his death and resurrection which makes it possible for us to gain eternal life. I don't know why so many people are bent on trying to bring Jesus down low...he was a perfect human being who withstood the test. He did not show any weaknesses of the flesh. His purpose for coming to earth was not to marry and have children. If he had followed that path, he would have been no better than the angels (now demons) who forsook their place in heaven to have sexual relations with women on earth.

Ernestine said:

Jesus' spiritual body is what should be of significance. It is his death and resurrection which makes it possible for us to gain eternal life. I don't know why so many people are bent on trying to bring Jesus down low...he was a perfect human being who withstood the test. He did not show any weaknesses of the flesh. His purpose for coming to earth was not to marry and have children. If he had followed that path, he would have been no better than the angels (now demons) who forsook their place in heaven to have sexual relations with women on earth.

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Is that in the Bible? I've never heard that before. I thought the angels became demons because they wanted to be better than God, or just didn't want to obay Him.

joeboonda said:

A common greeting of early, (first and second century) Christians was, one person would say, "Christ is risen!" and the other would reply, "Christ is risen indeed!" I believe the witness of the apostles, that Christ rose from the grave, in His physical body, and now sits at the right hand of God the Father. Each of these died proclaiming this. NOBODY would die for something they KNEW was a lie!

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But they would die for something they didn't know was true.

Papersock said:

That makes some sense. But couldn't he have been remembered by his miracles and by healing a ton of people? I don't think the main purpose of being sacrificed was to be remembered, but to actually take on the sins of everyone. At least, that's what I've been taught. I suppose it could have been for both.

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That is a peculiarly western understanding - substitutionary atonement. It's not the oldest understanding or the only one. In the east the whole Incarnation and not just the Crucifixion is important. In the west you have the Roman Catholic understanding of the Crucifixion as Christus Victor which is much closer to the eastern view (and much older than the view you mention here). Christ became Incarnate so that He might reconcile human and Divine nature and died that through His death and Resurrection He might defeat death. You cannot simply look at the Crucifixion if you want to understand the beliefs of the early Church - everything from Annunciation to Ascension is important and the over-emphasis on the Crucifixion almost to the exclusion of all else is one of the failings of certain western theologies.

joeboonda said:

A common greeting of early, (first and second century) Christians was, one person would say, "Christ is risen!" and the other would reply, "Christ is risen indeed!" I believe the witness of the apostles, that Christ rose from the grave, in His physical body, and now sits at the right hand of God the Father. Each of these died proclaiming this. NOBODY would die for something they KNEW was a lie!

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This is a living tradition, not just one from the early centuries. Orthodox Christians cease to say hello to each other every year between Pascha (Easter) and Ascension, saying instead, Christ is risen! (Or in my case, Hristos a-nviat!) and the reply is He is risen indeed (we don't repeat Christ in the reply).

Radio Frequency X said:

But they would die for something they didn't know was true.

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They claimed to have seen, talked with, eaten with, Jesus, and Jesus told Thomas to put his hand in his nail, and spear wounds. They knew it was true, and told the world that we may be saved by believing in Jesus also. They would not "die for something they didn't know was true.", they were eyewitnesses, they knew it was true. They did not lie or make it up, nor were they deceived in any way. We use 2 eyewitnesses to find a person guilty, Jesus had over 500 at one time, the 12 disciples, Mary, etc. We also have Jesus' own words prophecying that He would die and rise again. We can trust Jesus' words, and we can trust Him for everlasting life.

James the Persian said:

This is a living tradition, not just one from the early centuries. Orthodox Christians cease to say hello to each other every year between Pascha (Easter) and Ascension, saying instead, Christ is risen! (Or in my case, Hristos a-nviat!) and the reply is He is risen indeed (we don't repeat Christ in the reply).

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You are right, we do not repeat Christ in the phrase, just "He is risen indeed!"

joeboonda said:

They claimed to have seen, talked with, eaten with, Jesus, and Jesus told Thomas to put his hand in his nail, and spear wounds. They knew it was true, and told the world that we may be saved by believing in Jesus also. They would not "die for something they didn't know was true.", they were eyewitnesses, they knew it was true. They did not lie or make it up, nor were they deceived in any way. We use 2 eyewitnesses to find a person guilty, Jesus had over 500 at one time, the 12 disciples, Mary, etc. We also have Jesus' own words prophecying that He would die and rise again. We can trust Jesus' words, and we can trust Him for everlasting life.

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Why should we trust Jesus or his disciples?