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Arguments for and against fish cognition

Kharisym

Member
I wonder at what point will the next sapient species on this plant will be? Assuming mankind doesn't destroy itself.

There are some arguments that some marine mammals have infinitely generative language. Infinitely generative language necessitates grammar, and grammar would signify higher order (human-like) intelligence. So it is possible that the next sapient species is already here.
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
It's hard to say which you will find to be the best example, but I'll share a couple of the ones that mean a lot to me.

I'll preface this by saying that almost any behavior can be written off as something besides intelligence, but at the same time, we have no reason to believe it's not intelligence.

1) Inter-species cooperation. Groupers, eels, and octopi have all been seen hunting in pairs with one another, usually with the same individual each time. This cooperation is usually brought on by the animals making gestures rather than simply appearing and hunting the same fish. Not all groupers or moray eels engage in this behavior.

Barracuda have also been known to dwell near docks in Hawaii until fisherman show up, where they then direct the fisherman towards the nearest school of fish so they can get some food.

2) We've seen several taxa of fish show Machiavellian intelligence, which is essentially the ability to behave diplomatically or to use information one knows about another individual to their own benefit.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/292242763_Machiavellian_Intelligence_in_Fishes

3) Research on optical illusions that had only previously worked on primates and humans work on several taxa of fish. These optical illusions play on advanced cognitive understanding of a prior experience.

4) Many taxa of fish use multiple brain areas at a time, something associated with higher levels of cognition. Individual fish have also been observed to have left and right brain bias.

5) Zebrafish and goldfish trained using color and reward puzzles have shown metacognitive abilities. AKA the fish was aware when it didn't know the answer. They become hesitant and choose not to answer. They can think about thinking. I got to see this in person since we were the ones doing this assay.

6) Zebrafish have complex brain processes and social habits that become obstructed in the exact same way by the same neurodivergencies. In other words, autistic fish behave in the same way as autistic humans. Fish with Alzheimer's show the same symptoms as humans with Alzheimer's (mostly). Zebrafish have proven to be an even better model for autism then mice have.

These are just some of the examples. We also see tool use, jealously, extremely good memory application and puzzle solving abilities in fish, to name a few.

Take them as you will.
Amazing. Thanks.
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
I'm a very dense person. Please explain what this means like you're talking to a child, that way I eat a candybar while listening.

//I joke. I don't need a reason to shove chocolate in my face hole.
Because fish feels pain. Why to eat it? To cause somebody pain? Not. But God commands to eat fish.
 

Kharisym

Member
Because fish feels pain. Why to eat it? To cause somebody pain? Not. But God commands to eat fish.

There are many reasons why people eat animals. Some people eat animals because they believe animals don't have souls (St. Aquinas). others believe that its okay to eat them because we have dominion over them by command of god, and therefore it doesn't matter if we cause animals pain. Still more believe its okay to eat animals because animals eat animals. Yet more people believe they can eat animals by nature of them participating in the natural cycle. Yet even more people eat animals because they believe the act of killing and consuming them doesn't do great harm--that the animal will reincarnate or go to an animal heaven.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You thew a breadstick???

View attachment 65524
I thought that bacon was a vegetable.

Seriously I heard the story of someone that went a bit nuts when she found that her clam chowder had bacon in it. She would have been like this one guy that I knew. He was a "No face vegetarian". He would not eat fish, but he would eat clams, and scallops. I am not sure about shrimp.

But the people that work in a restaurant have the responsibility of knowing what is in their foods.

I do not know if Muslims can eat shellfish. But I know that they cannot eat pork. So almost all clam chowder would be off their menu since bacon is an ingredient in traditional white clam chowder. I a customer makes their dietary requirements known a waiter should know enough about the food served at one's restaurants the they can comply with those wishes.
 
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