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Theists Mostly: God

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is not upsetting me, this is about you

Not what you said, but how you said it

If people belittle feelings, beliefs of others when replying then I reply differently then I normally would reply

Note: I replied to this one seriously, because you did not use belittling words
I did not intend for my original post to be belittling to you. If you read it again with that in mind, you may read it differently.

I was simply pointing out that abstract is the same as the subtle. Something I see to be true. Gross is fine. It's what we all need to introduce ourselves to anything. But then it deepens beyond that. So the abstract is the next step beyond the gross, or the concrete literal. And then there is moving beyond even the abstract into pure connection. These are just stating the reality of these things, not intending to put anyone down.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
God is of course an abstract construct. It must be, for a deity must transcend the mundane.

That doesn't mean that God isn't also concrete.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm confused here at folks claiming abstract concepts aren't real. Culture, mathematics, emotions and so on are all abstract concepts but it doesn't mean they're not real.
 

syo

Well-Known Member
Everything is generally a 'concept'.
That's what makes gods different than everything else. They are not concepts. Everything else is a concept, not gods. Gods are the only thing real. Everything else is maya.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
That's what makes gods different than everything else. They are not concepts. Everything else is a concept, not gods. Gods are the only thing real. Everything else is maya.
But concepts are real.

I'm not getting those who say concepts aren't real.
 

Psalm23

Well-Known Member
@Rival , how would you define abstract concept? I would see abstract concept much like inventions. Before the invention is made, it exists in the mind of the creator. Thus in this stage an abstract concept in the mind of the inventor. After it is made, it is no longer exists solely in the mind.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
@Rival , how would you define abstract concept? I would see abstract concept much like inventions. Before the invention is made, it exists in the mind of the creator. Thus in this stage an abstract concept in the mind of the inventor. After it is made, it is no longer exists solely in the mind.
Good definition is the one pulled up by Google:

Abstract concepts refer to entities that have no physical or spatial constraints because they have no direct representation in the physical world. It does not exist at a particular time or place but as a type of thing. Examples of abstract concepts are emotions, metaphors, and abstract actions (e.g., thinking).
 

Psalm23

Well-Known Member
Good definition is the one pulled up by Google:

Abstract concepts refer to entities that have no physical or spatial constraints because they have no direct representation in the physical world. It does not exist at a particular time or place but as a type of thing. Examples of abstract concepts are emotions, metaphors, and abstract actions (e.g., thinking).

God doesn't fit that definition in my opinion. He always has existed and is not a type of thing .
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't know what concepts are or aren't. But Gods are not one of them. Concepts are maya.
Your ideas of gods are concepts. They are ideas you have of them.

What Maya is, is mistaking our ideas about anything, gods or anything else, as the actuality of reality itself. The illusion is mistaking our concepts, our mental constructed ideas about reality, as actual reality and not a mental construct of reality. That's the illusion. Mistaking our minds as actually telling us what reality actually is.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God doesn't fit that definition in my opinion. He always has existed and is not a type of thing .
That definition listed things like emotions too. We know that emotions exist, but still when we try to talk about them, they are abstractions. Same thing when we speak of God. Unless you mean to envision God as a literal physical person, having a literal physical body, living in some literal physical place?

Aside from Mormons who believe that is literally true, everyone else sees God as spiritual in nature, so anything we may try to think about God is going to be abstract, metaphysical concepts unless you wish to reduce God down into an object like a cat, or a whale, some other creature?

That's fine if you need to envision God as a literal person, like a painting that shows God as an old man with a flowing white beard. But is that the limits of your thoughts about God? Do you go no further than a concrete-literal perspective of God as a physical object? What about "God is Love"? Isn't that an abstract concept?
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God is of course an abstract construct. It must be, for a deity must transcend the mundane.

That doesn't mean that God isn't also concrete.
Concrete in what sense? Having a physical body?

Here's how I see it. All of these things that we speak about regarding the nature or being of God, are all our perceptions.

Some perceive God in concrete-literal terms, as a literal person having some objective form of some sort or other external to themselves the way you would separate John from Susan. That is a perception of the Divine that makes God an object of the mind for it to think about or try to relate to it as distinctly other to one's own self.

Others perceive God as beyond concrete-literal perspectives as more all-pervasive and formless, somehow transcendent to this mundane reality, yet within this reality at the same time. To grapple with this sense or intuition or faith, the mind needs to conceptualize God in terms that are more abstractions than simple identifications of objects, like cat, dog, human, deity, and so forth.

How does God interpenetrate reality, while being distinct from reality as we know it? These are highly abstract, even paradoxical considerations, out of sheer necessity. If you perceive God beyond concrete-literal, it has to become abstractions and more metaphorical in nature in order to think beyond boxes we wish to put reality into, including God as an object neatly tucked into our belief boxes we place everything else into.

And then there is where I am at personally, where one realizes that all of these are simply the perceptions of the mind, ways to try to translate experience into mental constructs in order to communicate them to both ourselves mentally, and others' conceptual frameworks. None of these are descriptors of reality, but "fingers pointing at the moon" and not the moon itself.

God, if God is God, meaning Infinite and Absolute in nature and being, cannot be separate to anything or anyone at all. But what separates God is the mind itself, trying to see God. It's like trying to think of yourself in 3rd person perspectives.

I can talk about myself in the 3rd person, but while I am conceptualizing myself as an object, I am actually the subject doing the perceiving of myself as other to myself. That is of course not actually reality, but a perception of reality spoken of as if it were reality itself. It's a device of the mind, in other words, and not the actuality of reality itself.

In other words, thoughts about God, are not God's reality. All thought are perceptions.

BTW, how are you? It's been awhile.
 
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SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
No, God is absolute truth. "God is the first truth and the last fact; therefore does all truth take origin in him, while all facts exist relative to him."

Why? As he said, "I AM that I AM"

Wouldn’t that make Popeye absolute truth as well?
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Is God an abstract concept?

Why, why not?

In my view, God, Allah, Ishvara, Saguna Brahman…whatever you call it…is an abstract concept, as it is bound by Maya (time/space/causation), which is, in and of itself, an abstract concept. From my perspective, anything appearing in Maya is abstract, just as what appears in a dream is abstract.
 
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