...and now for something completely different: Free Will!

Trailblazer said:

That's true, there are horrific things that go on in the world, but how are those God's fault? Almost all of them can be traced back to human free will choices. Granted, there are other horrible things like accidents, injuries, and diseases that are not a choice, and these can be considered our fate. They are not things that God does to us but rather things that happen to us as a result of living in a material world.

Click to expand...

A material world that God supposedly created.

You are very fortunate if you have your health at your age. I have learned that is nothing to take for-granted.

Click to expand...

I agree.

That's true, a sadistic God would want us to suffer longer, but how much sense does that make that God is sadistic. Moreover, such a belief runs contrary to scriptures of all the religions.

Click to expand...

It makes as much sense as any description of God that lacks evidential support. Unless you are counting the scriptures as support? I do think that humans writing scriptures would very much prefer God to be benevolent, as do I!

Trailblazer said:

God does have a Purpose for humanity that is very lofty so it is all worthwhile. Why would God create humans and have no Purpose for them? That makes no logical sense.

The only way we can investigate it is by reading scriptures, since that is the only Source of information about God's Purpose. God has a Purpose for us as individuals but God also has a collective Purpose for humanity.

My response is not going to be that we couldn't understand it even if we knew it, because it is something that we can understand. If you want to know what that Purpose is I can tell you.

Click to expand...

Please do.

Trailblazer said:

Nobody can ever prove that, because God does not want us to be able to prove it.

Click to expand...

No body can ever prove that because the 12 gods Kobol don't want us to able able to prove it.

Trailblazer said:

God wants us to look at the evidence and have faith. If there was proof then we would not need faith.

Click to expand...

If there is evidence there is no need for faith.

Policy said:

If there is evidence there is no need for faith.

Click to expand...

Only if there was proof would there be no need for faith.

The reason God does not prove He exists is because God wants our faith. If God proved He exists then we would no longer need faith.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

We must first believe that it is possible for God to exist, and that requires faith since no man has ever seen God.

God will reward those who earnestly seek Him with the evidence they need to believe, but God will not force anyone to accept the evidence. That is a free will choice.

Policy said:

Hating and wanting something gone are not the same thing. Hating is a waste of energy and bad for one's nervous system. I am repulsed by things, and some of them I work against, but I don't invest my energy in hate.

Click to expand...

Being repulsed by something is hating it.

Alien826 said:

A material world that God supposedly created.

Click to expand...

Yes, God created it, so God is responsible for both the good and the bad things we experience.

Alien826 said:

It makes as much sense as any description of God that lacks evidential support. Unless you are counting the scriptures as support? I do think that humans writing scriptures would very much prefer God to be benevolent, as do I!

Click to expand...

Humans writing scriptures is problematic and that is why the Bible is problematic, it is a collection of writings by human authors. We don't even know who the authors were so we have to believe on faith that the Bible was divinely inspired, which is what Christians believe.

I believe that Baha'u'llah had a twofold nature so He was both divine and human, and as such the Writings of Baha'u'llah are the closest humanity has ever had to the actual Word of God. Baha'u'llah wrote that God is benevolent, so that is good enough for me. This of course does not contradict what is in the Bible, it simply corroborates it.

“No God is there but Him. All creation and its empire are His. He bestoweth His gifts on whom He will, and from whom He will He withholdeth them. He is the Great Giver, the Most Generous, the Benevolent.” Gleanings, p. 278

“All creation and its empire are His. He bestoweth His gifts on whom He will, and from whom He will He withholdeth them. He is the Great Giver, the Most Generous, the Benevolent.” Gleanings, p. 278

Wildswanderer said:

Being repulsed by something is hating it.

Click to expand...

My emotions must have a higher resolution.

Trailblazer said:

Only if there was proof would there be no need for faith.

Click to expand...

Incorrect. Proof in the colloquial sense means evidence. Proof in the mathematical sense means certainty. Proof in the distillery sense means ABV. Proof in the numismatic sense means a coin struck using a unique, high-quality minting process to produce coins, especially for collectors.

This is your cue for a great Harrumph of Optimism

Alien826 said:

Please do.

Click to expand...

Well, you asked....

God's Purpose for individuals is as follows:

“The purpose of God in creating man hath been, and will ever be, to enable him to know his Creator and to attain His Presence. To this most excellent aim, this supreme objective, all the heavenly Books and the divinely-revealed and weighty Scriptures unequivocally bear witness.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 70

This is the primary Purpose as is also expressed in the Baha'i Short Obligatory Prayer as knowing and worshiping God. However, the other Purpose if this life in this material world is spiritual growth, developing our spiritual nature, so our souls will be prepared to ascend to the spiritual world when we die physically.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

God's Purpose for humanity as a whole is as follows:

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it.

“The winds of despair,” writes Bahá’u’lláh, as He surveys the immediate destinies of mankind, “are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divides and afflicts the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appears to be lamentably defective.” “Such shall be its plight,” He, in another connection, has declared, “that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly.” “These fruitless strifes,” He, on the other hand, contemplating the future of mankind, has emphatically prophesied, in the course of His memorable interview with the Persian orientalist, Edward G. Browne, “these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the ‘Most Great Peace’ shall come…. These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family.” “Soon,” He predicts, “will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead.” “After a time,” He also has written, “all the governments on earth will change. Oppression will envelop the world. And following a universal convulsion, the sun of justice will rise from the horizon of the unseen realm.” “The whole earth,” He, moreover, has stated, “is now in a state of pregnancy. The day is approaching when it will have yielded its noblest fruits, when from it will have sprung forth the loftiest trees, the most enchanting blossoms, the most heavenly blessings.” “All nations and kindreds,” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá likewise has written, “…will become a single nation. Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself.”

What we witness at the present time, during “this gravest crisis in the history of civilization,” recalling such times in which “religions have perished and are born,” is the adolescent stage in the slow and painful evolution of humanity, preparatory to the attainment of the stage of manhood, the stage of maturity, the promise of which is embedded in the teachings, and enshrined in the prophecies, of Bahá’u’lláh. The tumult of this age of transition is characteristic of the impetuosity and irrational instincts of youth, its follies, its prodigality, its pride, its self-assurance, its rebelliousness, and contempt of discipline.”
The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 116-117

Policy said:

Incorrect. Proof in the colloquial sense means evidence. Proof in the mathematical sense means certainty.

Click to expand...

Incorrect. Only verifiable evidence constitutes proof, but not all evidence is verifiable.

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

Proof is a kind of evidence (verifiable evidence) that establishes something as a fact.
Therefore verifiable evidence is proof.

Something is scientifically verifiable if it can be tested and proven to be true. Verifiable comes from the verb verify, "authenticate" or "prove," from the Old French verifier, "find out the truth about." The Latin root is verus, or "true." Definitions of verifiable.
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/verifiable

Something that's verifiable can be proven. In a courtroom, verifiable evidence is backed up with specific proof. If you have a birth certificate, your exact time and place of birth is verifiable — in other words, you can prove where and when you were born.
Verifiable - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms | Vocabulary.com

Other kinds of evidence that are NOT verifiable do not establish anything as a fact.
They only indicate whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Trailblazer said:

Incorrect. Only verifiable evidence constitutes proof, but not all evidence is verifiable.

Click to expand...

As I said. Only in the colloquial sense. All proof means as you have outlined it is strong evidence.

Trailblazer said:

Yes, God created it, so God is responsible for both the good and the bad things we experience.

Click to expand...

Oh good, we agree on that.

Humans writing scriptures is problematic and that is why the Bible is problematic, it is a collection of writings by human authors. We don't even know who the authors were so we have to believe on faith that the Bible was divinely inspired, which is what Christians believe.

Click to expand...

And this.

I believe that Baha'u'llah had a twofold nature so He was both divine and human, and as such the Writings of Baha'u'llah are the closest humanity has ever had to the actual Word of God. Baha'u'llah wrote that God is benevolent, so that is good enough for me. This of course does not contradict what is in the Bible, it simply corroborates it.

“No God is there but Him. All creation and its empire are His. He bestoweth His gifts on whom He will, and from whom He will He withholdeth them. He is the Great Giver, the Most Generous, the Benevolent.” Gleanings, p. 278

“All creation and its empire are His. He bestoweth His gifts on whom He will, and from whom He will He withholdeth them. He is the Great Giver, the Most Generous, the Benevolent.” Gleanings, p. 278

Click to expand...

Ah. So your prophet is not the same as those other inferior prophets. OK.

So, very basically, is your concept of God similar to Islam's Allah or Christianity's Jehovah?

Thanks for the next post, very interesting. So "heaven" will be on Earth? Will humans be essentially the same (maybe improved spiritually)? Will they be immortal?

I will read links if you prefer, rather than have you type it all out.

Great conversation, thanks.

Wildswanderer said:

So you don't believe free will is real?

Click to expand...

Define What you mean by free will.

Wildswanderer said:

the Bible explicitly says he gives eternal life to those that believe.

Click to expand...

The bible makes multiple claims that are risible from a contemporary viewpoint.

Alien826 said:

Ah. So your prophet is not the same as those other inferior prophets. OK.

Click to expand...

Well, I guess you are going to get the cook's tour.

It is a Baha'i belief that no Prophets (who we also refer to as Messengers of God or Manifestations of God) are inferior to others.
Baha’u’llah sternly warned us never to make any distinction between any of the Prophets (Manifestations of God) because they all arise to proclaim the same religion, the one eternal religion of God. Baha’u’llah wrote that the works and acts of all the Manifestations of God were all ordained by God, a reflection of His Will and Purpose, meaning that all the religions are equally true and all the Manifestations of God are equal in stature.

“Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60

The reason that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God differ is because the requirements of every age are different.

“These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

Alien826 said:

So, very basically, is your concept of God similar to Islam's Allah or Christianity's Jehovah?

Click to expand...

Yes, the Baha'i understanding of God is similar to Islam's Allah and Christianity's Jehovah, but closer to Islamic belief, since Christianity went off track when they turned God into a man and made God into a Trinity.

A quite good and thorough description of what Baha'is believe about God can be found on this website:

God in the Baháʼí Faith

Alien826 said:

Thanks for the next post, very interesting. So "heaven" will be on Earth? Will humans be essentially the same (maybe improved spiritually)? Will they be immortal?

I will read links if you prefer, rather than have you type it all out.

Click to expand...

No, I did not mean to imply that heaven will be 'moved' to earth. Heaven will still be heaven, which Baha'is refer to as the spiritual world. On earth we will all still have physical bodies which are mortal, but in heaven we will all have spiritual bodies which will be immortal.

Jesus asked us to pray for the kingdom of God to come to earth: "thy kingdom come; thy will be done; on earth as it is in heaven."

In the future there will be a new race of men on earth which will change the world so it will be like heaven on earth, although it will still be earth, which will always be a physical world.

New Race of Men

Aupmanyav said:

There is no evidence, not even a shred of it.

Click to expand...

For the believer, in religions like Christianity and the Baha'i Faith, there is what they believe to be at least evidence and maybe proof too. For the Christian the NT and Bible has God showing himself to be real by speaking, appearing, and by sending his angels and prophets and ultimately, by sending Jesus. For the Baha'i, the main proof is their prophet, Baha'u'llah. But I'm not sure the "word" faith is being thought of correctly. I'm thinking "faith" and "trust" are synonyms. That a person must put their "faith" in God, is the same as saying that a person must put their "trust" in God. But that faith or trust is not put into a God they don't believe is real. It's just that their evidence and proof isn't what others would call objective and factual.

Wildswanderer said:

Now you are getting it.

Click to expand...

You still haven't managed to justify your assertion that hate leads to murder. Or that hate is equivalent to murder.

Wildswanderer said:

Why should it even exist, then?

Click to expand...

Good question.
Why did god create poisonous snakes? Or cancer? Or earthquakes?

Wildswanderer said:

I think you are missing the point Jesus was making.


“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

And John, who echoes what Jesus said:

13 Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth."


So yes, forgiving others thier sin is important.
But the key point here is to act from love, not hate.
It's not about how men see justice, but about what God says we should do and be.

Matthew 5:23-26

23 Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift at the altar and go. First make things right with your brother or sister and then come back and offer your gift. 25 Be sure to make friends quickly with your opponents while you are with them on the way to court. Otherwise, they will haul you before the judge, the judge will turn you over to the officer of the court, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 I say to you in all seriousness that you won’t get out of there until you’ve paid the very last penny.

Click to expand...

So you think that hate is equivalent to murder (even the hate of a parent towards their child's murderer), because of something Jesus is supposed to have said rather than because of any cogent argument.

Yeah, I'd kinda figured that out already.

KWED said:

Hating inanimate objects is a pointless exercise.
And again, such hate would not lead to murder.

Click to expand...

How about figs? Are they inanimate? Jesus hated figs.

I think that the Westboro Baptist Church misinterpreted that part of the Bible.