• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

One God: TheAlmighty Father, maker of all things

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I don’t put stock in the creeds. I prefer what is taught in scripture.
The reference to the creed in the topic header (if that is what you are referring to) is simply to bring into focus that originally Trinitarians DID CLAIM that the Father was the creator of all things.
And so, how, after claiming that the Father created all things, did they then claim that if was the SON who created all things.

As you can see from the responses, no trinitarian has any answer to this dilemma of belief - why? Simply because it cannot be resolved… because it is clear that the Son did not create anything::: the scripture (if you translate it properly and truthfully) says that the world and everything in if was created FOR THE SON!
However, since words can have multiple meanings, determined, ignorant, malicious, or plain arrogant readers and translators will choose an ineffable meaning to try to prove their point.

It is clear, is it not, that if the world was created FOR HIM then he cannot be the one who created it.

Besides, the world is GRANTED as a reward to the Son for dying for sinful mankind… how then is the Son granted what he is supposed to have created.

Moreover, the very word (title), ‘Father’, means : ‘Creator’…. Jesus is not called ‘Father’!!!

And…,.. Since scriptures says if was there Father who created all things… and trinity says it was Jesus… do you think then that when Jesus says, “I and the Father are one”, given what was said earlier, Trinitarians should be falling over themselves to say that ‘Jesus IS the Father’!!

But they don’t.

Why?

Because, one, it’s not true. Two, they could not then have a trinity. And note that even Trinitarians do not claim that the spirit of God created anything!!!

All in all the trinity belief presents a plethora of dilemmas that have no resolution. Their only resort is to keep blindly regurgitating unfathomable claims that do not hold water under even the simplest of examination.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
If the Holy Spirit is alive and does what a person would do in other places in the scripture then it is the same at Numbers 11:17 and Numbers 11:25.
The Spirit comes and dwells/lives in the disciples of Jesus. (John 14:16-17)
The Spirit God sent to go with Israel in the wilderness, the one that carried God's presence with them, was grieved with Israel. (Ephesians 4:30, Isaiah 63:10)
In the King James it does Not say The Spirit of God as posted above.
At John 14:16-17 the helper is the 'spirit of truth ' .
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
A Trinitarian creed begins:
  • “I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth and all things visible and invisible.”
This statement of belief is quite explicit and clear. It states that there is one God, entitled, ‘Father’, who is almighty.

On top of that the creed is clear that the belief is that this ‘Almighty Father’ created all things.

The question is: How did one almighty God who created all things turn into three persons, one called ‘Father’, who did not create all things, and one called ‘Son’, who did create all things, and another called ‘Holy Spirit’, who like ‘Father’, did not create all things.

In addition, two of the ‘persons’ of this three-person one God are ‘Of God’ but the third is not ‘Of God’?

Finally, since each of the two that are ‘of God’ are clearly subordinate TO GOD (in fact and specifically, the one called ‘Father’), how are they, all three them each ALMIGHTY? ((Can an almighty be subordinate to another?))

Lastly (for now!), if the one called ‘Son’ was the ‘creator of all things’, how is it he says that he can do nothing except he first see the Father doing the same. How did he create all things without first seeing the Father create all things… but if the Father created all things, …..??!!
My book says differently.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
In the King James it does Not say The Spirit of God as posted above.
At John 14:16-17 the helper is the 'spirit of truth ' .
The Spirit of Truth IS the Spirit of God.

The Spirit of God IS the Spirit of Truth.

If the spirit of truth is grieved then there is no hope!!

I cannot understand how people cannot understand this simple concept!!!

It’s like saying that if there is no law then ‘God help us all - everyone for themselves!!’.

They understand that, though.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Brian2, how is he heir to what he is supposed to have created?

The Son inherits and in fact owns all that his Father has. (John 16:15)

The word ‘Father’ means ‘Creator’ but the Son is not called ‘Father’.

The Son is called "eternal Father" (Isa 9:6)
Father does not specifically mean "creator".

Tue verse you quoted can be plainly seen to be contradictory. It first says ‘IN HIM’ we’re all things created… then it says ‘THROUGH HIM’.

Both cannot be true… in fact NEITHER is true.

It says the world was created FOR HIM -for his sake… (created for him BY WHOM?) which complies with God creating a physical realm for a physical image of himself.[/QUOTE]

Are you saying that Col 1:16 contradicts itself and is completely false in what it says?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
In the King James it does Not say The Spirit of God as posted above.
At John 14:16-17 the helper is the 'spirit of truth ' .

Are you saying that the "Spirit of Truth" the "Paraclete"/"Comforter" is not the Spirit of God?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Are you saying that the "Spirit of Truth" the "Paraclete"/"Comforter" is not the Spirit of God?
God's spirit (Psalms 104:30) is with a small lower-case letter "s". So, I am saying God's spirit is Not a person.
The spirit of truth (John 14:17; 16:13) is a neuter "it" just as God's spirit is a neuter "it" at Numbers 11:17,25
Just as the 'spirit of the world' is Not a person (1 Corinthians 2:12) neither is God's spirit "it" at 1 John 2:27 B.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The Spirit of Truth IS the Spirit of God.
The Spirit of God IS the Spirit of Truth.
If the spirit of truth is grieved then there is no hope!!
I cannot understand how people cannot understand this simple concept!!!
It’s like saying that if there is no law then ‘God help us all - everyone for themselves!!’.
They understand that, though.

God sends forth His spirit thus God's sends forth the spirit of truth ("it")
- John 14:17; John 15:26; John 16:12-13; 1 John 5:8
In Greek grammar rules a neuter can be referred to in male gender but remains a neuter "it".
Jesus believed that Scripture is religious truth - John 17:17 - the spirit of truth.
God's spirit lacks personality, personal identification, is impersonal in nature.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The Son inherits and in fact owns all that his Father has. (John 16:15)The Son is called "eternal Father" (Isa 9:6) Father does not specifically mean "creator".
It says the world was created FOR HIM -for his sake… (created for him BY WHOM?) which complies with God creating a physical realm for a physical image of himself.
Are you saying that Col 1:16 contradicts itself and is completely false in what it says?

Besides John 16:15 we have John 17:9-10.

The word father means: life giver.
Because Jesus was given the power of the resurrection - Revelation 1:18 - Jesus gives life.
So, Jesus is titled 'Eternal Father ' in that Jesus restores life to the dead.- John 11:25
Col. 1:16 corresponds to Hebrews 1:2; 1 Corinthians 8:6 ; John 1:10.
Pre-human heavenly Jesus is part of the "us" at Genesis 1:26.
ALL things come ' through ' Jesus. Jesus is Not Creator, but God created 'through' His heavenly Son.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
God sends forth His spirit thus God's sends forth the spirit of truth ("it")
- John 14:17; John 15:26; John 16:12-13; 1 John 5:8
In Greek grammar rules a neuter can be referred to in male gender but remains a neuter "it".
Jesus believed that Scripture is religious truth - John 17:17 - the spirit of truth.
God's spirit lacks personality, personal identification, is impersonal in nature.
Not disagreeing. I, too, say the spirit of God is a neuter ‘it’.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Besides John 16:15 we have John 17:9-10.

The word father means: life giver.
Because Jesus was given the power of the resurrection - Revelation 1:18 - Jesus gives life.
So, Jesus is titled 'Eternal Father ' in that Jesus restores life to the dead.- John 11:25
Col. 1:16 corresponds to Hebrews 1:2; 1 Corinthians 8:6 ; John 1:10.
Pre-human heavenly Jesus is part of the "us" at Genesis 1:26.
ALL things come ' through ' Jesus. Jesus is Not Creator, but God created 'through' His heavenly Son.
Jesus Christ WILL raise the dead and give eternal life to those he deems worthy for his kingdom - At the end of time at the judgement seat.

Jesus was granted to have life in him just as the Father does.

Remember: first The Father does, then the son does… in that order!

So, it cannot be that the Father first created and then the Son created… there is no scripture that states that Jesus created at all. Supposed renderings that appear so can be shown to have serious flaws of interpretation as discussions with Brian2 shows - he does not answer the question asked but diverts to some sideline response which he thinks fools the truth seeker.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
God's spirit (Psalms 104:30) is with a small lower-case letter "s". So, I am saying God's spirit is Not a person.
The spirit of truth (John 14:17; 16:13) is a neuter "it" just as God's spirit is a neuter "it" at Numbers 11:17,25
Just as the 'spirit of the world' is Not a person (1 Corinthians 2:12) neither is God's spirit "it" at 1 John 2:27 B.

So are you saying that the Spirit of Truth did not live in the disciples of Jesus as John 14:17 tells us, and that the living water promised by Jesus (John 4:10) is not really living?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Besides John 16:15 we have John 17:9-10.

The word father means: life giver.
Because Jesus was given the power of the resurrection - Revelation 1:18 - Jesus gives life.
So, Jesus is titled 'Eternal Father ' in that Jesus restores life to the dead.- John 11:25
Col. 1:16 corresponds to Hebrews 1:2; 1 Corinthians 8:6 ; John 1:10.
Pre-human heavenly Jesus is part of the "us" at Genesis 1:26.
ALL things come ' through ' Jesus. Jesus is Not Creator, but God created 'through' His heavenly Son.

John 1:3 tells us in the NWT that all things came into existence through the Word.
Do you say that it really means that all "other" things came into existence through the Word and that the Word also came into existence?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
So, it cannot be that the Father first created and then the Son created… there is no scripture that states that Jesus created at all. Supposed renderings that appear so can be shown to have serious flaws of interpretation as discussions with Brian2 shows - he does not answer the question asked but diverts to some sideline response which he thinks fools the truth seeker.

John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

It's a matter of authority. When the Son sees the Father start the creation by speaking, the Son also starts creating. All things have been created through the Son in this way. Do you deny that the Son does all the things that He sees the Father do, in this case the creation?
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

It's a matter of authority. When the Son sees the Father start the creation by speaking, the Son also starts creating. All things have been created through the Son in this way. Do you deny that the Son does all the things that He sees the Father do, in this case the creation?
I’m laughing so hard it should be illegal to disdain you so much….!!

You know you are talking falsehoods.

In your trinitarian ideology then, there are TWO creations….. oh boy!!!

The world and all within was created FOR HIM.

When he succeeded in accomplishing the task that God sent him to do Jesus was therefore GRANTED what had been created for him.

The winner of the race is rewarded with the prize that was there from [before the race began]
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I’m laughing so hard it should be illegal to disdain you so much….!!

You know you are talking falsehoods.

In your trinitarian ideology then, there are TWO creations….. oh boy!!!

The world and all within was created FOR HIM.

When he succeeded in accomplishing the task that God sent him to do Jesus was therefore GRANTED what had been created for him.

The winner of the race is rewarded with the prize that was there from [before the race began]

It sounds like you do not believe what John 5:19 tells us. "....whatever the Father does, the Son also does".
If the Father is creating all things that means the Son is also creating all things.
That doesn't mean 2 creations. That must be a misunderstanding on your part.
From there you seem to be stumbling from one misunderstanding to others. Maybe I just don't understand what you are trying to say.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
It sounds like you do not believe what John 5:19 tells us. "....whatever the Father does, the Son also does".
If the Father is creating all things that means the Son is also creating all things.
That doesn't mean 2 creations. That must be a misunderstanding on your part.
From there you seem to be stumbling from one misunderstanding to others. Maybe I just don't understand what you are trying to say.
I think you perfectly well understand what I’m saying.

What the problems is, is that you see the errors and flaws in your ‘Father creates’ and ‘Son creates’ and try to think how the TWO CREATIONS can be ONE CREATION. But it cannot work so you try to pretend that it is my misunderstanding.

I have never said against, but also believed that, the son does what FIRST SEES the Father DOING.

The world was created FOR HIM (the Son) so the Son likewise CREATES for his subjects:
  • “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.” (John 14:3)
Jesus is CREATING A PLACE for his subjects JUST AS the Father created a place for HIS.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I think you perfectly well understand what I’m saying.

What the problems is, is that you see the errors and flaws in your ‘Father creates’ and ‘Son creates’ and try to think how the TWO CREATIONS can be ONE CREATION. But it cannot work so you try to pretend that it is my misunderstanding.

I have never said against, but also believed that, the son does what FIRST SEES the Father DOING.

The world was created FOR HIM (the Son) so the Son likewise CREATES for his subjects:
  • “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.” (John 14:3)
Jesus is CREATING A PLACE for his subjects JUST AS the Father created a place for HIS.

I'll have to ignore your blindness about Jesus and all things having been created through, by means of Him.
In the last line of what you said:
Jesus is CREATING A PLACE for his subjects JUST AS the Father created a place for HIS.
It sounds like you are saying that Jesus became a god (probably by inheritance) and has subjects who worship Him just as the Father has subjects who worship Him. Is that sort of right?
I'm just trying to piece together your theology since you seem to want to keep it secret.
 
Top