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Throw Grandma in Jail and Throw Away the Key?

InChrist

Free4ever
That's the gist of what you said, as I see it. Humans are responsible for things like cancer, not God (according to you). You also said that sometimes God will miraculously step in and heal babies with cancer, but not always. Just sometimes. Babies are humans. Since humans are responsible for things like cancer, then babies are responsible for their own cancer.
You are reading into my words your own ideas. Ideas that I didn’t say, don’t think, nor does the Bible.

I do think that because sin is present in this world it is a fallen world; meaning things aren’t right and bad things happen. Bad things just happen to anyone, not even directly related to any personal sin or fault on their part, babies included. The Bible says everything is affected, all of creation is groaning under the weigh and damage of sin. That is the reason I look forward to the new heaven and earth where there will be no more tears, no pain, sickness or death.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
It is causing when one is both omnipotent and omniscient. If you want to admit that your God is neither then we can discuss this more. But as long as you hold on to that belief your God is at fault.
No, God is not at fault if He knows what He is doing and has a legitimate, valid reason for His plan and for allowing humans to do what they do to fulfill His perfect plan and accomplish something far greater and more wonderful than we can imagine.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
And, yet, we want Grandma in jail.

Is that unequal weights? Why is it different? (Within the Christian context)
So, grandmas should be exempt from the law if they violate it? And how does this supposedly violate morals within the Christian context"? :shrug:

Sorry to be late on this as we just got back from a one-week family reunion in my Swedish grandmother's little village where she grew up in on Lake Superior. Like heaven, let me tell ya!
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
You are reading into my words your own ideas. Ideas that I didn’t say, don’t think, nor does the Bible.

I do think that because sin is present in this world it is a fallen world; meaning things aren’t right and bad things happen. Bad things just happen to anyone, not even directly related to any personal sin or fault on their part, babies included. The Bible says everything is affected, all of creation is groaning under the weigh and damage of sin. That is the reason I look forward to the new heaven and earth where there will be no more tears, no pain, sickness or death.
I'm following your claims to their logical conclusion.

You said humans are at fault for the bad things in the world, not God (even though this God supposedly created this world). Babies get cancer. Babies are human. God doesn't generally cure babies of cancer - well, sometimes, if you pray, but only sometimes - but God is not responsible for this cancer, humans are. Even though humans didn't create cancer. God did. Or humans somehow created it by being sinful. Or something.

What a convoluted mess.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
No, God is not at fault if He knows what He is doing and has a legitimate, valid reason for His plan and for allowing humans to do what they do to fulfill His perfect plan and accomplish something far greater and more wonderful than we can imagine.
Ah, so babies dying from cancer isn't a tragic thing. Rather, God had "far greater and more wonderful" plans in store for those dead babies.
Good grief. o_O
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That is a favorite verse atheists or others who like to denigrate God, pull out of context to say something it doesn’t say. First, the entirety of the scriptures declare God to be Holy, Righteous, Pure, Good... so there would not be one verse saying God creates moral evil which is completely against His Nature, Character and Being. So the verse means something else when read in context.
Did God create evil? | GotQuestions.org


I think it’s a false charge that if God knew humans would fall, sin or bring harm and damage into the world, then God is at fault, evil or that this somehow proves God doesn’t exist. If this world is all there is, then one of those conclusions may be the case. But according to the scriptures, this is not the end. God has a far greater goal and plan. There is no reason to assume that the Creator God, being all-good and all-powerful, would prevent suffering on this earth if out of suffering he could bring about a good that is far greater than any that would have existed otherwise. Why should finite humans make assumptions about an infinite Being? Certainly such assumptions could be very wrong.

As Paul said...
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. Romans 8:18







Sorry, but the Bible condemns God in its own words again and again and again. That is why apologists have to be liars for Jesus. I have not seen one professional apologist that does not regularly lie for the Bible.

By the way, you should not use false accusations. Pointing out how the God of the Bible is evil and immoral is not "attacking God" unless you want to admit yourself that God is evil and immoral. We are just doing the same thing that you are doing . Reading your book of myths literally.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No, God is not at fault if He knows what He is doing and has a legitimate, valid reason for His plan and for allowing humans to do what they do to fulfill His perfect plan and accomplish something far greater and more wonderful than we can imagine.
The Bible only claims to have a "legitimate valid reason". Let's say that the flood myth is true. We know it is not, I know, I know, you believe that God lied, but most Christians disagree with you on that. But once again we will assume that the flood myth is true. God killed supposedly countless innocent babies and children. How could they be evil?

If you keep this up you will almost force me to break Godwin's law.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Sorry, but the Bible condemns God in its own words again and again and again. That is why apologists have to be liars for Jesus. I have not seen one professional apologist that does not regularly lie for the Bible.

By the way, you should not use false accusations. Pointing out how the God of the Bible is evil and immoral is not "attacking God" unless you want to admit yourself that God is evil and immoral. We are just doing the same thing that you are doing . Reading your book of myths literally.

The whole "God is love" theme is the main message of Christianity, so of course, we would be hard pressed to find a Christian who would honestly admit that God creates evil, just as the Bible clearly states in Isaiah 45:7. We can expect Christians to adamantly deny that their "loving, merciful" God creates evil or that he creates disasters and calamities. It doesn't surprise me that they don't want to admit that their "loving, merciful" God purposely inflicts pain and suffering on mankind. As a former Christian, I'm aware that blaming humans or the devil for the evil in the world is far easier on a Christian's conscience than blaming the "kind and merciful" God that a Christian actually believes in and has faith in. I think it takes a lot of courage for a Christian to honestly admit that if the Bible is true, then God is truly a barbaric and sadistic monster who is morally responsible for the cosmic mess he made, not humanity or Lucifer.

"God is love" is central to their evangelistic strategy and is intended to persuade nonbelievers to accept Christianity. Christians are more likely to have new converts with messages like "God is love" or "God loves you," rather than with a message like "God is love, but you should know that the Bible states that God causes evil, disasters, and calamities." So, it makes sense that Christians would want nonbelievers to reject the verses that state that God creates evil, that God forces a rape victim to wed her rapist, that God orders the execution of witches, that God commanded the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, and infant from another nation, and finally, that God drowned every human being on earth—all but one family—in a worldwide flood. I think it is natural for Christians to prefer that nonbelievers focus on and believe only the positive scriptures about God's alleged benevolence, love, and mercy while dismissing the verses regarding his cruel and sadistic treatment of mankind. I can understand why they would want to deny these contradictions to God's alleged goodness and love for humanity. It seems like the Bible is only the "Word of God" when Christians agree with certain scriptures. Otherwise, some of them claim that God didn't inspire all of the Bible, only parts of it. That's very convenient, isn't it?

How many people do you think Christians would persuade to convert to Christianity if they used some of the horrifying Bible stories in their gospel message? It makes sense that Christians would vehemently reject the idea that God creates evil, disasters, and calamities.
 
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InChrist

Free4ever
Sorry, but the Bible condemns God in its own words again and again and again. That is why apologists have to be liars for Jesus. I have not seen one professional apologist that does not regularly lie for the Bible.

By the way, you should not use false accusations. Pointing out how the God of the Bible is evil and immoral is not "attacking God" unless you want to admit yourself that God is evil and immoral. We are just doing the same thing that you are doing . Reading your book of myths literally.
No, you are not reading the scriptures as I read them, you are purposely misreading and twisting the scriptures...

...as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
2 Peter 3:16
 

InChrist

Free4ever
The Bible only claims to have a "legitimate valid reason". Let's say that the flood myth is true. We know it is not, I know, I know, you believe that God lied, but most Christians disagree with you on that. But once again we will assume that the flood myth is true. God killed supposedly countless innocent babies and children. How could they be evil?

If you keep this up you will almost force me to break Godwin's law.
The countless babies and children weren’t evil, their parents were though. Those who were raising them, those given the responsibility to love, teach, nurture and care for them, but were instead harming their children, teaching them violence and sacrificing them to idols. What hope did those children have? So God intervened and any children who perished went to heaven

Go ahead and break Godwin’s Law. It would just show you are the loser in this discussion.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Ah, so babies dying from cancer isn't a tragic thing. Rather, God had "far greater and more wonderful" plans in store for those dead babies.
Good grief. o_O
I did not say babies dying from cancer isn’t tragic. It is very tragic here on earth. But it’s not the end for them, each one is alive in the presence of God, enveloped in His love and joy forever.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No, you are not reading the scriptures as I read them, you are purposely misreading and twisting the scriptures...

...as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
2 Peter 3:16
Of course not. I am not making your errors. I am reading them as they were written. And it is not that hard to understand once one realizes that the Bible is just a book written by men.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The countless babies and children weren’t evil, their parents were though. Those who were raising them, those given the responsibility to love, teach, nurture and care for them, but were instead harming their children, teaching them violence and sacrificing them to idols. What hope did those children have? So God intervened and any children who perished went to heaven

Go ahead and break Godwin’s Law. It would just show you are the loser in this discussion.
In some cases breaking Godwin's law is acceptable. This might be such a case. But you have already admitted that God is evil. You are the one that tries to claim that your God has all of the "omnis" but his behavior in the Bible tells us that that is not so.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
In some cases breaking Godwin's law is acceptable. This might be such a case. But you have already admitted that God is evil. You are the one that tries to claim that your God has all of the "omnis" but his behavior in the Bible tells us that that is not so.
No, I have not and do not admit God is evil. You are attempting some kind of narcissists projection of your view onto me or else outright lying as you constantly accuse others of doing.

I don’t make the claim out of thin air or my imagination that God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. The scriptures reveal God to possess these qualities. I, as a finite being would be clueless as to the attributes of an eternal, infinite Being, just as you are, unless I read and understood God’s revelation concerning Himself in the biblical scriptures.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
You may not have said human beings were cars, but you compared them to cars as if there’s not much doing the way they should be designed or operate. I see a huge difference between a non-living mechanical thing and a living human being.
Because you are deliberately avoiding my point by focusing on irrelevant details.

My point is that things designed and created to work flawlessly AS designed won't fail. Adam and Eve did fail. And if God didn't foresee the failure then God is inept. I suspect it was all a set up. The story reads like God knew what he was doing so these beings would not obey a simple rule. Why tempt them if God really, really wanted them to obey?

There was no flaw in God’s design. How could an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Creator create a flawed creation? According to the scriptures. A&E walked with God each day.
So the only alternative is that God created them to fail. Why? Because they failed easily.

All this reminds me of the final scene in A Few Good Men where Jessup ended up admitting that he ordered the code red because according to his testimony no soldier would ever disobey his order to leave Santiago alone. Either Jessup was wrong that no soldier would disobey his order, or he ordered the code red.

The bottom line is that God created beings to obey a rule, and they didn't. Either God was wrong in his creation, or he designed them to not be capable of obeying. Most of us imperfect humans obey simple rules, but A&E couldn't? Both Jessup and God are in a no win situation.

They shared conversation and friendship. They saw the beauty and provision He bestowed upon them in the garden. They knew God’s love for them, They were not uniformed, nor easily deceived. They chose to believe the lie instead of obeying and trusting God’s instruction and wisdom. They already knew it was wrong.
Yet they lacked knowledge. Remember, it was the tree of knowledge they were forbidden to eat from, so had no capacity for thinking or accountability to consequences. The story indicts God as the guilty party to why A&E failed to obey.
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
That's the gist of what you said, as I see it. Humans are responsible for things like cancer, not God (according to you). You also said that sometimes God will miraculously step in and heal babies with cancer, but not always. Just sometimes. Babies are humans. Since humans are responsible for things like cancer, then babies are responsible for their own cancer.
InChrist is obviously repeating the bad claim that due to the Fall of man in the Garden then all humans are sinners. So in essences even if you did not cause your own cancer, you being a human caused it. The odd thing is why do some children get cancer, while not all humans get it? It appears to be a random lottery, so what is God up to? Being human didn't cause the lottery, something else did.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No, I have not and do not admit God is evil. You are attempting some kind of narcissists projection of your view onto me or else outright lying as you constantly accuse others of doing.

I don’t make the claim out of thin air or my imagination that God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. The scriptures reveal God to possess these qualities. I, as a finite being would be clueless as to the attributes of an eternal, infinite Being, just as you are, unless I read and understood God’s revelation concerning Himself in the biblical scriptures.
The problem is that you are being inconsistent. If you were consistent you would realize that you are saying that God is evil. Instead you cherry pick the verses that you like and ignore or even worse interpret them completely backwards. You also have to make excuse for your God's evil works that are not supported by the Bible or reality. If God has all of the omnis that you claim that he does then he is logically to blame for all evils on the Earth.

Would you like to go over the Garden of Eden myth? According to that story God set up Adam to fail.

And you should never assume that proper translations of the Bible are due to my atheism. The Flood was first debunked by early Christian geologists looking for evidence for the Flood. Instead they only found evidence against it. And of course if one reads the Bible in context, without trying to change it to match known facts it is a Flat Earth book. And since the early writers were naturally very ignorant of the Earth at that time that makes sense. Understanding that the world is a sphere is a slightly advanced technological idea. One has to have at least attained seafaring to understand that the world is not flat.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
So, grandmas should be exempt from the law if they violate it? And how does this supposedly violate morals within the Christian context"? :shrug:

Sorry to be late on this as we just got back from a one-week family reunion in my Swedish grandmother's little village where she grew up in on Lake Superior. Like heaven, let me tell ya!
Beautiful.... I know you had a great time!

No, she shouldn't be exempt but I think a fine would have been sufficient. Of course, I'm not the judge.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Beautiful.... I know you had a great time!

No, she shouldn't be exempt but I think a fine would have been sufficient. Of course, I'm not the judge.


For purposefully lying to and trying to distract the police during an insurrection. You think that only merits a fine? I will have to remember this whenever you talk about the punishment for other crimes.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
No, God is not at fault if He knows what He is doing and has a legitimate, valid reason for His plan and for allowing humans to do what they do to fulfill His perfect plan and accomplish something far greater and more wonderful than we can imagine.
So children developing cancer is part of some perfect plan? So those children that are diagnosed with cancer should be allowed to die, and if doctors are able to treat the cancer and save the child's life, after years of painful treatment, it goes against God's perfect plan? Explain.
 
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