Two bible passages that I think say you go right to heaven when you die.

Frank Goad said:

Two bible passages that I think say you go right to heaven when you die.

Here they are 2 Timothy 4:18 and 2 Peter 1:10-11.

What do you think?Do you agree?Or disagree?

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Neither verse claims that you go right to heaven when you die.

The first speaks of the writer (Timothy?) speaking of himself. The writer speaks of himself as being one of the elect of God… it is this group of individuals (‘whose name are written in the book of life from the beginning!:Luke 10:20)

Outside of the group of the first group of such elect of God who walked in the ways of Christ Jesus, no one should class themselves as being one of the elect of God and have had their name written in the book of life.

The second of the claimed verses does not even speak of Heaven. It speaks of the kingdom of Jesus Christ… which is PARADISE!!

Paradise is not Heaven!

Paradise is an earthly realm ruled by Jesus Christ.

Heaven is the spirit realm ruled by God.

Again, the verse in Peter speaks not of Heaven, but Paradise, the realm of Jesus Christ.

KenS said:

So if God is in Heaven and there are four and twenty elders at the throne, who are they?

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First, you have to realize that the Book of Revelation is like a dream that John had. He is not seeing actual events. Rev 4:1 says that God is showing him things that will come "hereafter". What God may decide to do at some future does not change the present. If God wants to invite some elders to visit him in heaven at some future time does not mean that Christians die and go to heaven. As of today, no one has gone to heaven. No one can predict the future.

Brian2 said:

Either the dead still exist and sleep in death OR the dead do not sleep but go out of existence at the death of the body.

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Sleep is a metaphor, a simile, for death…not every aspect is consonant
Daniel 12:2

Brian2 said:

As shown in the rest of the Bible, the spirit of man is more than just a life force however.

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No it does not.

Genesis 3:19 indicates no such thing.

Neither does Psalms 146:3-4…. If it did, after the verse says “his spirit departs / goes out”, it would say “and the person goes with it.” But it doesn’t. It agrees with Genesis 3:19.
And Ecclesiastes 3:19-20..”they all have the same spirit / breath.”

The only difference, is that humans, alienated as we are through imperfection, have the hope of the resurrection. John 6:44.

So I guess really then, to you and many others, God was omitting a whole bunch of information to Adam.

And I’m pretty sure that your version of Scripture that you use (since most do), says “hellfire” or fires of hell or similar.
Matthew 18:9
What are you gonna do with that?
You haven’t said one thing about hellfire.
Was that Adam’s destination? If so, that’s a big omission!!
Not explaining any life after death, would be an omission / lie!

You want to believe in *immediate* life after death.

I’d like to think that way, too…. I don’t like knowing that my loved ones are not existing right now, that their bodies are the only thing left, and turning to dust…but I know the truth about death. It is the “enemy” (1 Corinthians 15:26), not the portal to another realm. (That’s ancient Greek philosophy, not truth.) My grandma and all the others are in the safest place: God’s memory. Through His Son, He will resurrect them, all who are in ‘Hades / Hell, the sea, and death.’ Revelation 20:13-14

Hockeycowboy said:

Sleep is a metaphor, a simile, for death…not every aspect is consonant
Daniel 12:2

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You still have the problem of the scriptures not showing that we go out of existence at death.
Any scriptures you have are misinterpreted imo, and for each of those scriptures I have scriptures which show life after death and a place for the souls of the dead. But I admit that the JW have tried to be thorough and so have worked on the meaning of sheol and hades and spirit and soul and death and resurrection to make them all different to what the scriptures tell us imo. It's a tangled web, just like other teachings of the JWs at times such as the idea that Jesus is a created angel. That is certainly a tangled web. But of course it is like the Baha'i interpretations of the Bible. They can so easily be debunked but when we show scriptures that easily debunk, the Baha'is ignore them and then you get dragged into their particular tangled web.
With the trinity btw it is easy to debunk the whole JW idea that Jesus was created with scriptures like John 1:3
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
This is a scripture that shows us that the pre human Jesus was not created and cannot be contradicted. All you can do is alter the meaning of other scriptures to try to make it look as if Jesus was created. But in the background is this scripture which you cannot debunk and which shows the lie in the meaning you give to other scriptures the JWs use.
That was a bit of a ramble wasn't it.

Brian2 said:

But maybe you think that the dead can both sleep and go out of existence. Is that what you believe?

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I believe a person can ' perish ' as found at 2 Peter 3:9. ( the people of Noah's Day perished )
Perish means: 'destroyed' which is in harmony with Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22.
So, the wicked go 'out of existence ' because they are 'destroyed forever'. No more resurrection hope for them.
Please notice Jeremiah 51:39; Jeremiah 51:57 KJV says ' perpetual sleep ' .
Resurrection is for the righteous and unrighteous according to Acts of the Apostles 24:15 (wicked Not included)
The 'righteous and unrighteous' will be awakened from death's sleep on Resurrection Day.(Jesus' 1,000-yr.Day)
Just as Jesus awakened his 4-day dead friend from death's sleep in John chapter 11, so the dead will live again.
The righteous to keep on being righteous and the unrighteous to become righteous to gain everlasting life.
Because Adam's curse upon humanity will be gone the ones proving righteous come to gain everlasting life as a perfect human as Adam was originally created before his downfall.

Brian2 said:

.................... It's a tangled web, just like other teachings of the JWs at times such as the idea that Jesus is a created angel..................

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I wonder how one would answer the question found at Hebrews 1:5 _________________- Psalms 2:7
Who has the archangel's voice according to 1 Thessalonians 4:16 ____________ it's No tangled web.

lostwanderingsoul said:

..... If God wants to invite some elders to visit him in heaven at some future time does not mean that Christians die and go to heaven. ......

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What ! 'Flesh and blood' (physical) can Not inherit the kingdom - 1 Corinthians 15:50
No visit mentioned at Revelation 20:6 but resurrection is.
People who are like the people of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18 (called as saints/holy ones) are resurrected to Heaven.
The majority of people (John 3:13) can be resurrected to happy-and-healthy physical life on Earth.
A future resurrection (Not for saints/holy ones) but for the 'righteous and unrighteous' - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
The first or earlier resurrection is for those called to govern with Christ in Heaven - Revelation 5:9-10
Then, the rest on 'Resurrection Day' ( Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years )

URAVIP2ME said:

What ! 'Flesh and blood' (physical) can Not inherit the kingdom - 1 Corinthians 15:50
No visit mentioned at Revelation 20:6 but resurrection is.
People who are like the people of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18 (called as saints/holy ones) are resurrected to Heaven.
The majority of people (John 3:13) can be resurrected to happy-and-healthy physical life on Earth.
A future resurrection (Not for saints/holy ones) but for the 'righteous and unrighteous' - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
The first or earlier resurrection is for those called to govern with Christ in Heaven - Revelation 5:9-10
Then, the rest on 'Resurrection Day' ( Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years )

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I think you should read Revelation 5:9-10. It says nothing about heaven. It says they will reign ON EARTH. I do not see how you get heaven out of that. Another example of someone taking a verse and trying to make it say something it does not say.

URAVIP2ME said:

What ! 'Flesh and blood' (physical) can Not inherit the kingdom - 1 Corinthians 15:50
No visit mentioned at Revelation 20:6 but resurrection is.
People who are like the people of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18 (called as saints/holy ones) are resurrected to Heaven.
The majority of people (John 3:13) can be resurrected to happy-and-healthy physical life on Earth.
A future resurrection (Not for saints/holy ones) but for the 'righteous and unrighteous' - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
The first or earlier resurrection is for those called to govern with Christ in Heaven - Revelation 5:9-10
Then, the rest on 'Resurrection Day' ( Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years )

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Also Luke 22:28 and Daniel 7:18 do not say anything about HEAVEN.

Listen my cousin, I’m not going to get drawn in on this topic, because this isn’t the thread.

But I’ll reply to this:

Brian2 said:

With the trinity btw it is easy to debunk the whole JW idea that Jesus was created with scriptures like John 1:3
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
This is a scripture that shows us that the pre human Jesus was not created and cannot be contradicted.

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Yes, “through Him”, he was used by the Father as a “master craftsman”… Proverbs 8:30

(Just as it is “through Jesus” that Jehovah God - Jesus’ Father - saves mankind.)

Colossians 1:15-16
Revelation 3:14

lostwanderingsoul said:

I think you should read Revelation 5:9-10. It says nothing about heaven. It says they will reign ON EARTH. I do not see how you get heaven out of that. Another example of someone taking a verse and trying to make it say something it does not say.

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Yes, they reign upon the Earth in that their governing is over Earth but from Heaven with Jesus.
Like Jesus (John 14:19 ) they govern from Heaven - Revelation 20:6
Like Jesus they are resurrected to heavenly life.
The majority of mankind will be resurrected to happy-and-healthy physical life on Earth.

lostwanderingsoul said:

Also Luke 22:28 and Daniel 7:18 do not say anything about HEAVEN.

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I was referring to the type of person who will have a heavenly resurrection ( saints/holy ones ) - a little flock - Luke 12:32
Did you notice the job that 'little flock' has at Luke 22:30 _____________ - 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 1:6.
Those who have an earthly resurrection are Not referred to as saints/holy ones, but either as righteous ones or un-righteous ones - Acts of the Apostles 24:15

URAVIP2ME said:

Yes, they reign upon the Earth in that their governing is over Earth but from Heaven with Jesus.
Like Jesus (John 14:19 ) they govern from Heaven - Revelation 20:6
Like Jesus they are resurrected to heavenly life.
The majority of mankind will be resurrected to happy-and-healthy physical life on Earth.

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Well again, you have to pay attention to the words. It says they will reign ON earth not OVER the earth. They may get their authority from heaven but they do not have to be in heaven to get that authority. You are reading the words to mean what you want them to mean not want they actually say.

lostwanderingsoul said:

Well again, you have to pay attention to the words. It says they will reign ON earth not OVER the earth. They may get their authority from heaven but they do not have to be in heaven to get that authority. You are reading the words to mean what you want them to mean not want they actually say.

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Jesus is in Heaven and stays in Heaven - John 14:19
Those ' brothers' of Jesus have a heavenly resurrection - chapter 15 of 1st Corinthians. - Matthew 25:40

URAVIP2ME said:

Jesus is in Heaven and stays in Heaven - John 14:19
Those ' brothers' of Jesus have a heavenly resurrection - chapter 15 of 1st Corinthians. - Matthew 25:40

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Well all I can do is keep repeating that none of the verses you mention says anything about people going to heaven. You are reading your own beliefs into what is there. You have not given a single verse that says anyone has or will go to heaven.

lostwanderingsoul said:

Well all I can do is keep repeating that none of the verses you mention says anything about people going to heaven. You are reading your own beliefs into what is there. You have not given a single verse that says anyone has or will go to heaven.

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Any thoughts about John 14:2-3 ______________
Where is Jesus but in Heaven - Luke 22:30; Hebrews 9:24 - Heaven itself.
Jesus reigns in Heaven - 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 3:12.
Reigns in Heaven and those of the first or earlier resurrection are with Jesus who is in Heaven - Revelation 20:6

URAVIP2ME said:

Any thoughts about John 14:2-3 ______________
Where is Jesus but in Heaven - Luke 22:30; Hebrews 9:24 - Heaven itself.
Jesus reigns in Heaven - 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 3:12.
Reigns in Heaven and those of the first or earlier resurrection are with Jesus who is in Heaven - Revelation 20:6

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Jesus will reign ON EARTH for 1000years. Rev 3:12 just says they will reign with Jesus. And even if it is not on earth, the verse does not say anything about anyone going to HEAVEN. You are reading that into it. None of these verses say anyone is going to heaven.

URAVIP2ME said:

Any thoughts about John 14:2-3 ______________
Where is Jesus but in Heaven - Luke 22:30; Hebrews 9:24 - Heaven itself.
Jesus reigns in Heaven - 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 3:12.
Reigns in Heaven and those of the first or earlier resurrection are with Jesus who is in Heaven - Revelation 20:6

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John 14:2 says Jesus is coming back to EARTH. And where he is (on earth) people will be with him. It does NOT say they will go to heaven.

lostwanderingsoul said:

John 14:2 says Jesus is coming back to EARTH. And where he is (on earth) people will be with him. It does NOT say they will go to heaven.

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What does John 14:19 say about Jesus but that the world would behold him No more.
Where is God's House according to 1 Kings 8:27 ____________-Isaiah 66:1