If Jesus Died...

paarsurrey said:

That is one' blind faith, as one gave no reasonable argument.
Bible (NT) is nor written by Jesus not is dictated by Jesus. Right?
Have a good day.

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It is Hellenist-Paul who is bent upon making the Pauline-Christians believe that Yeshua-the Jewish Messiah died on the Cross to make him one dying-rising god as per the Hellenism concepts, I understand, please. Right?
Yeshua never claimed to be the "almighty god" and "Yeshua never died a cursed death on the Cross", one gathers, please. Right?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

It is Hellenist-Paul who is bent upon making the Pauline-Christians believe that Yeshua-the Jewish Messiah died on the Cross to make him one dying-rising god as per the Hellenism concepts, I understand, please. Right?
Yeshua never claimed to be the "almighty god" and "Yeshua never died a cursed death on the Cross", one gathers, please. Right?

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"Atonement of sins of Christians" is pegged with "the death of Jesus on Cross" as a bribe/incentive by the Hellenist-Paul, his associates and the Pauline-Church to Christians, so the Christianity people cannot accept that Jesus did not die on the Cross and he survived, as I understand. Right?

Regards

paarsurrey said: ↑
It is Hellenist-Paul who is bent upon making the Pauline-Christians believe that Yeshua-the Jewish Messiah died on the Cross to make him one dying-rising god as per the Hellenism concepts, I understand, please. Right?
Yeshua never claimed to be the "almighty god" and "Yeshua never died a cursed death on the Cross", one gathers, please. Right?

paarsurrey said:

"Atonement of sins of Christians" is pegged with "the death of Jesus on Cross" as a bribe/incentive by the Hellenist-Paul, his associates and the Pauline-Church to Christians, so the Christianity people cannot accept that Jesus did not die on the Cross and he survived, as I understand. Right?

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What a weird Pauline-Christianity people, they cannot stop sinning so they force Jesus to die a cursed death on the Cross for the atonement of their sins? Right?

Regards

Clizby Wampuscat said:

That does not answer my question. Does God have to use violence to make people understand?

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I believe every individual is different. I had to see how useless it was to try to run my own life in order to give it to Jesus. My wife had to have a demon frighten her. I am sure salvation stories vary even more widely that this.

BrightShadow said:

How so? Isn't that the position of many Christians? Don't they believe all sins will be erased just by accepting Jesus? Don't they believe - Jesus died to erase their sins?


If you start from a wrong premise - you will end up with a wrong conclusion. I understand it makes no sense for a supposed god to go through crucifixion because a real god could have saved himself. So, when you start with the wrong premises that Jesus was god - you have to come with an explanation that makes sense and collaborates with that line of thinking. Hence "concept of atonement" (erasing sins for the believers) was introduced. IMO
The concept of atonement is a good deception because it allows some like you to continue to believe his divinity. Without the infusion of this concept -after the crucifixion - no one would have continued to believe Jesus was god. It was an ingenious idea but deceptive! IMO
I strongly believe this concept of atonement came from a source other than God!

As I said in my earlier post #241 - after the rumor started regarding his divinity status - Jesus' immediate disciples didn't squash it. Instead they entertained it - as a result Jesus found himself in a very tight predicament where the only way to convince people that he wasn't God or son of god - was to go through the crucifixion. Just think about it - Jesus was charged with blasphemy, claiming to be son of god and claiming to be messiah (king of Jews). If his divinity status was not entertained by his immediate disciples then there was a chance for him to come out alive. But when you are charged for claiming to be God or son of god - and asked to prove it by saving yourself then there isn't any other way left for you! If real creator had saved Jesus from that predicament and helped him walk out of there alive and continue his preaching then what would have that proved?
Hence I say - no current Christian's sins are erased by Jesus' crucifixion! No one (in my opinion) will have a free pass for just believing. If you commit a sin - you will have to face the consequences yourself.

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I suspect it is the position of people calling themselves Christian when they actually belong to the synagogue of Satan.

I believe so.

I believe we are not starting with a premise but a reality

I believe that is a non-sequitur. God does things for His own reasons not to make doctrine look more reasonable.

I believe this is also a non-sequitur. We believe in His divinity because the Bible says so. And that isn't even addressing the fact that atonement is not a deception.

I believe the only basis you have for that is faulty reasoning.

I do not believe in a free pass either. I believe one must receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. I would also question whether forgiveness is absolution. Absolution says just say a few prayers and the consequences go away. I do not believe that. It is always true that the wages of sin is death. I believe forgiveness simply puts us in right relationship with God.

paarsurrey said:

Then kindly give one's viewpoint supporting with reasonable argument/s please. Right?
Doesn't one hold that Jesus was a reasonable person, please? Right?
And if one cannot quote a reasonable argument from Jesus himself, then it reflects an accusation that Jesus was not a reasonable person, please. Right?

Regards

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I believe Jesus speaks the truth since He said I am the truth. Sometimes the truth does not sound so reasonable or as some put it the truth is stranger than fiction.

Muffled said:

I believe Jesus speaks the truth since He said I am the truth. Sometimes the truth does not sound so reasonable or as some put it the truth is stranger than fiction.

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" I believe "
Sorry, one's is a blind faith/belief and not based on reason, and one is a follower of Hellenist-Paul, Yeshua did not speak that people could remember word for word, he did not author and or write anything, get to know, please.

Regards

Muffled said:

I suspect it is the position of people calling themselves Christian when they actually belong to the synagogue of Satan.

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Actually those who believe in the divinity of Jesus belong in the "house of Constantine". IMO. They deviated from the actual teachings of Jesus! IMO

Muffled said:

I believe we are not starting with a premise but a reality

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Wishful thinking! There is no such thing as an alternate fact! Bible clearly indicates Jesus wasn't a God. Jesus denied being God himself. No need to out-smart Jesus and try and turn him into a God. A real God would not go up the mountain and pray to himself! [Luke 5:16] & [Matthew 14:23]

Muffled said:

God does things for His own reasons not to make doctrine look more reasonable.

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Ha, ha! So, he came down - did the usual things just like any prophet would do (preach) then when the rumor started and he was charged with blasphemy - suddenly out of convenience - he decided to announce that he is dying to erase sins! That is something Constantine wanted people to believe. IMO.
Simple questions can be asked - why Jesus' disciples were sad during the last supper? Why Jesus' companion reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the high priest's guard's ear and slash it off?
If Jesus prepared them and told them the reason why he is allowing himself to die - then why would anyone fight back? Why cut the ear off of the guard?

Muffled said:

We believe in His divinity because the Bible says so.

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Even with the innovations - no where in the Bible Jesus claims to be God and asked anyone to worship him! In the contrary - I can show you many verse where he denied being God or implied not being God at all. [John 7:16], [John 12:49], [John 6:38], [John 5:30], [John 17:1-3], [Mark 10:17-18], [Matthew 7:21], [John 20:17], [John 8:42], [John 12:49], [Luke 9:20-21], [Luke 4:11], [John 14:24], [John 14:28], [Luke 22:42], [Luke 22:42], [Luke 5:16], [Matthew 14:23], and many more!

BrightShadow said:

Actually those who believe in the divinity of Jesus:

1. belong in the "house of Constantine". IMO.
2. They deviated from the actual teachings of Jesus! IMO
3. Wishful thinking! There is no such thing as an alternate fact!
4. Bible clearly indicates Jesus wasn't a God. Jesus denied being God himself.
5. No need to out-smart Jesus and try and turn him into a God.
6. A real God would not go up the mountain and pray to himself! [Luke 5:16] & [Matthew 14:23]

Ha, ha! So, he came down - did the usual things just like any prophet would do (preach) then when the rumor started and he was charged with blasphemy - suddenly out of convenience - he decided to announce that he is dying to erase sins!
That is something Constantine wanted people to believe. IMO.
Simple questions can be asked - why Jesus' disciples were sad during the last supper? Why Jesus' companion reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the high priest's guard's ear and slash it off?
If Jesus prepared them and told them the reason why he is allowing himself to die - then why would anyone fight back? Why cut the ear off of the guard?
Even with the innovations - no where in the Bible Jesus claims to be God and asked anyone to worship him! In the contrary - I can show you many verse where he denied being God or implied not being God at all. [John 7:16], [John 12:49], [John 6:38], [John 5:30], [John 17:1-3], [Mark 10:17-18], [Matthew 7:21], [John 20:17], [John 8:42], [John 12:49], [Luke 9:20-21], [Luke 4:11], [John 14:24], [John 14:28], [Luke 22:42], [Luke 22:42], [Luke 5:16], [Matthew 14:23], and many more!

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Friend @BrightShadow !

A wonderful and reasonable post consisting of good points ,I have numbered some of them for the convenience of my friends here, please. I rated one's above post very happily as "winner". Congratulation for writing such a good post, please!

Isn't making (Jesus) Yeshua G-d a heinous accusation on Yeshua by the Hellenist-Paulines, please? Right?
Yeshua would hate it being called God, one gets to understand, please. Right?

Regards

If Jesus Died...

Jesus didn't die on the Cross in the first place so there is no question of Jesus' resurrection from the dead, one gathers, please. Right?
In that case Paul himself admits Christianity is fake:

1 Corinthians 15:14
14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith.
1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith.
Right?

Regards

Nakosis said:

1 John 2:2

For all of Man's sins, aren't we all then redeemed?
The payment made in full. Nothing else is being asked of us.

To say God asks anything else from us, isn't this denying the payment Jesus already made?

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Jesus death was simply a normal death for a normal man. It did not "accomplish" anything. He is not the messiah, nor is the messiah supposed to be some sort of human sacrifice.

paarsurrey said:

" I believe "
Sorry, one's is a blind faith/belief and not based on reason, and one is a follower of Hellenist-Paul, Yeshua did not speak that people could remember word for word, he did not author and or write anything, get to know, please.

Regards

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I believe you well know what a person without faith is: an infidel.

BrightShadow said:

Actually those who believe in the divinity of Jesus belong in the "house of Constantine". IMO. They deviated from the actual teachings of Jesus! IMO




Wishful thinking! There is no such thing as an alternate fact! Bible clearly indicates Jesus wasn't a God. Jesus denied being God himself. No need to out-smart Jesus and try and turn him into a God. A real God would not go up the mountain and pray to himself! [Luke 5:16] & [Matthew 14:23]




Ha, ha! So, he came down - did the usual things just like any prophet would do (preach) then when the rumor started and he was charged with blasphemy - suddenly out of convenience - he decided to announce that he is dying to erase sins! That is something Constantine wanted people to believe. IMO.
Simple questions can be asked - why Jesus' disciples were sad during the last supper? Why Jesus' companion reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the high priest's guard's ear and slash it off?
If Jesus prepared them and told them the reason why he is allowing himself to die - then why would anyone fight back? Why cut the ear off of the guard?





Even with the innovations - no where in the Bible Jesus claims to be God and asked anyone to worship him! In the contrary - I can show you many verse where he denied being God or implied not being God at all. [John 7:16], [John 12:49], [John 6:38], [John 5:30], [John 17:1-3], [Mark 10:17-18], [Matthew 7:21], [John 20:17], [John 8:42], [John 12:49], [Luke 9:20-21], [Luke 4:11], [John 14:24], [John 14:28], [Luke 22:42], [Luke 22:42], [Luke 5:16], [Matthew 14:23], and many more!

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I believe I go by the Bible according to how the Holy Spirit helps me understand it.

paarsurrey said:

If Jesus Died...

Jesus didn't die on the Cross in the first place so there is no question of Jesus' resurrection from the dead, one gathers, please. Right?
In that case Paul himself admits Christianity is fake:

1 Corinthians 15:14
14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith.
1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith.
Right?

Regards

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I believe you are speaking blasphemy.

paarsurrey said:

If Jesus Died...

Jesus didn't die on the Cross in the first place so there is no question of Jesus' resurrection from the dead, one gathers, please. Right?
In that case Paul himself admits Christianity is fake:

1 Corinthians 15:14
14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith.
1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith.
Right?

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Paul himself knew, how he had faked Hellenist-Christianity which had nothing to do with the real (Jesus) Yeshua-the Israelite Messiah so he made this supposition starting with " if", it transpires from the events, please? Right?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

If Jesus Died...

Jesus didn't die on the Cross in the first place so there is no question of Jesus' resurrection from the dead, one gathers, please. Right?
In that case Paul himself admits Christianity is fake:

1 Corinthians 15:14
14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith.
1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith.
Right?

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So, by his own words Hellenist Paul mislead Followers of Yeshua from the path Yeshua followed:

1. Yeshua did not die on the Cross, many clues in the Bible itself
2. Yeshua did not raise from the dead, many clues in the Bible itself
3. preaching of Pauline-Christianity is worthless
4. faith in Pauline-Christianity is, therefore, useless

Right?

Regards

If Jesus Died...

Jesus did not die on the Cross, is that clear now, please, right?

Regards

paarsurrey said:

If Jesus Died...

Jesus did not die on the Cross, is that clear now, please, right?

Regards

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The body of Jesus of Nazareth died on the cross, the spiritual person of the Son of God did not die, he waited 3 days and returned from the celestial world and appeared to a number of believers. IMOP

Who said gods askin?

paarsurrey said:

If Jesus Died...

Jesus did not die on the Cross, is that clear now, please, right?

Regards

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I'm not sure why you think you proved this. People die from crucifixion. Jesus is dead.