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The Resurrection is it provable?

joelr

Well-Known Member
Supportive documentation please.
Another interesting coincidence is the name Barabbas itself, an unusual name that means ‘Son of the Father’ in Aramaic, and Jesus is often portrayed as the ‘Son of the Father’ as well. So in this story we have two sons of the father; one released into the wild mob carrying the sins of Israel (such as murder and rebellion), effectively serving as an allegorical scapegoat (Barabbas), and the other sacrificed so his blood may atone for the sins of Israel (Jesus) — and we have one bearing the sins literally, and the other bearing the sins figuratively (just as we find in the Yom Kippur ceremony of Leviticus 16 in the Old Testament). We get further confirmation of this belief in the Epistle to the Hebrews (9-10), where we hear Jesus’ death described as the ultimate Yom Kippur atonement sacrifice. Interestingly enough, it is also implied in this part of Hebrews that Jesus’ death and resurrection would have taken place in the heavens, as that was where the most perfect atonement sacrifice would be made and where the most perfect holy temple would be for which to pour the blood of that sacrifice (another element supporting the contention that Jesus was initially believed to be a celestial deity rather than a historical person). So Mark here appears to be telling us through his own parable, to reject the sins of the Jews (notably violence and rebellion) and instead embrace the eternal salvation offered through the atonement sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Additionally, in this story, Mark seems to be pointing out how the Jews are erroneously viewing Jesus as the scapegoat, where Jesus is scorned, beaten, spat upon, crowned and pierced, and dressed in scarlet, and though Barabbas is the actual scapegoat, the Jews mistakenly embrace him instead. So Mark seems to be portraying the Jews as acting completely blind to the situation and choosing their sins (i.e. Barabbas) rather than their salvation (i.e. Jesus). Finally, this story seems to suggest that the Jews have also chosen the wrong model for the expected messiah. Whereas Barabbas could be seen as the murderous revolutionary, in line with the common Jewish belief that the messiah was expected to be a kind of revolutionary military leader, Jesus on the other hand, exemplified the suffering servant model of the messiah (another Jewish messianic model, though arguably less popular than the former), and one that would circumvent any need for a military revolution by enacting a spiritual victory through his death instead. So the Jews appear to have chosen the type of messiah they want, rather than the type of messiah that God wants instead (or so Mark believes anyway). Furthermore, rather than using a random lottery (i.e. God) to choose which “goat” would serve as the scapegoat, and which would serve as the atonement, the Jews removed God from the equation and made the choice themselves. If one looks at all of these elements together, we can see just how brilliant Mark’s story is, having multiple allegorical layers weaved into one.
Only a few verses later, we read about the rest of the crucifixion narrative and find a link (a literary source) with the Book of Psalms in the Old Testament (OT):

Mark 15.24: “They part his garments among them, casting lots upon them.”

Psalm 22:18: “They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon them.”

Mark 15.29-31: “And those who passed by blasphemed him, shaking their heads and saying, ‘…Save yourself…’ and mocked him, saying ‘He who saved others cannot save himself!’ ”

Psalm 22.7-8: “All those who see me mock me and give me lip, shaking their head, saying ‘He expected the lord to protect him, so let the lord save him if he likes.’ ”

Mark 15.34: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Psalm 22.1: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

On top of these links, Mark also appears to have used Psalm 69, Amos 8.9, and some elements of Isaiah 53, Zechariah 9-14, and Wisdom 2 as sources for his narratives. So we can see yet a few more elements of myth in the latter part of this Gospel, with Mark using other scriptural sources as needed for his story, whether to “fulfill” what he believed to be prophecy or for some other reason.

Earlier in Mark (chapter 5), we hear about another obviously fictional story about Jesus resurrecting a girl (the daughter of a man named Jairus) from the dead, this miracle serving as another obvious marker of myth, but adding to that implausibility is the fact that the tale is actually a rewrite of another mythical story, told of Elisha in 2 Kings 4.17-37 as found in the OT, and also the fact that there are a number of very improbable coincidences found within the story itself. In the story with Elisha, we hear of a woman from Shunem who seeks out the miracle-working Elisha, finds him, falls to his feet and begs him to help her son who had recently fallen gravely ill. Someone checks on her son and confirms that he is now dead, but Elisha doesn’t fret about this, and he goes into her house, works his miraculous magic, and raises him from the dead. In Mark’s version of the story (Mark 5.22-43), the same things occur. We hear about Jairus coming to look for Jesus, finds him, falls to his feet and begs him to help him with his daughter. Someone then comes to confirm that she is now dead, but Jesus (as Elisha) doesn’t fret, and he goes into his house, works his miraculous magic, and raises her from the dead.
As for some other notable coincidences, we see Mark reversing a few details in his version of the story. Instead of a woman begging for her son, it is a man begging for his daughter. While in 2 Kings, an unnamed woman comes from a named town (Shunem) which means “rest”, in Mark we have a named man coming from an unnamed town, and the man’s name (Jairus) means “awaken”. In Mark’s conclusion to this story (5.42), he mentions that “immediately they were amazed with great amazement”, and he appears to have borrowed this line from 2 Kings as well (4.13 as found in the Greek Septuagint version of 2 Kings), which says “You have been amazed by all this amazement for us”. It’s important to note that this verse from 2 Kings (as found in the Greek Septuagint), refers to an earlier encounter between the unnamed woman and Elisha where he was previously a guest in her home and this verse was what the woman had said to Elisha on that occasion. Then Elisha blesses her with a miraculous conception (as she was said to be a barren woman in 2 Kings). In fact, this miraculous conception was of the very son that Elisha would later resurrect from the dead. So to add to this use of 2 Kings we also have another reversal from Mark, reversing the placement of this reaction (double amazement) from the child’s miraculous conception (in 2 Kings) to the child’s miraculous resurrection (in Mark 5.42).
Another hint that Mark is writing historical fiction in his Gospel is the way he structures his narrative such that he can successfully accomplish certain literary goals rather than historical plausibility. One primary example of this is the ceaseless incomprehension of the disciples to what Jesus is saying and doing, where they are quite honestly dumber than can be reasonably believed. This archetype of the “dense lackeys” appears to be adapted either from Homer’s similarly unrealistic portrayal of Odysseus’ fickle and clueless crew, or the portrayal of the Jews in Exodus. Mark’s use of this type of literary device, requiring the invention of narrative material to make the structure work, thus allows him to accomplish a certain literary theme that wouldn’t have been possible otherwise.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Supportive documentation please.
The disciples also behave unrealistically in other ways, such as being gullible beyond belief. For example, in Mark 1.16-20, we read:

“As Jesus walked along the shore of Lake Galilee, he saw two fishermen, Simon and his brother Andrew, catching fish with a net. Jesus said to them, “Come with me, and I will teach you to catch people.” At once they left their nets and went with him. He went a little farther on and saw two other brothers, James and John, the sons of Zebedee. They were in their boat getting their nets ready. As soon as Jesus saw them, he called them; they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired men and went with Jesus.”

So after one brief statement from Jesus, without even a second thought, these random fishermen simply dropped what they were doing and followed him? These fisherman didn’t have to be persuaded at all, even though they know nothing about this man, who Jesus is, or his reputation. They don’t bother making sure that their means of income and food (including their boat) are taken care of as they leave? Instead, they simply drop it all, leave it all, and go without question. This kind of behavior is incredibly improbable in real life, as people simply don’t act like this. However, in myth and (unrealist) fiction, it happens all the time.

Another way Mark develops this theme is through an elegant ring composition, another common literary device popular at the time (used in myth as well as in history). In the central part of Mark’s narrative (revolving around Jesus’ travel by sea), Mark carefully crafted nested cycles of themes specifically to convey an underlying message about faith and one’s ability (or lack thereof) to understand the gospel. Here is what the ring structure looks like:

Cycle 1:

Phase 1 (4.1-34) — Jesus with crowds by the sea (preaching from a boat)

Phase 2 (4.35-41) — Eventful crossing of the sea

Phase 3 (5.1-20) — Landing with healings/exorcisms

Interval 1: Step 1 (5.21-43) — First stop (after an uneventful boating)

Step 2 (6.1-6) — Second stop

Step 3 (6.6-29) — Going around

Cycle 2:

Phase 1 (6.30-44) — Jesus with crowds by the sea (with an uneventful boating)

Phase 2 (6.45-52) — Eventful crossing of the sea

Phase 3 (6.53-55) — Landing with healings/exorcisms

Interval 2: Step 1 (6.56-7.23) — Going around

Step 2 (7.24-30) — First stop

Step 3 (7.31-37) — Second stop

Cycle 3:

Phase 1 (8.1-12) — Jesus with crowds by the sea (with an uneventful boating)

Phase 2 (8.13-21) — Eventful crossing of the sea

Phase 3 (8.22-26) — Landing with healings/exorcisms

It’s really quite brilliantly crafted when you look at it: three triadically composed intervals, each of which contains one triadically composite minimal unit. Furthermore, every “Phase 1” in all cycles, takes place during the day and describes Jesus’ actions with crowds on one side of the sea. Every “Phase 2” occurs on the evening of that same day (though not stated explicitly in Cycle 3’s “Phase 2”, it is implied by what would have been a long sea crossing), and also describes actions between Jesus and the twelve disciples in the boat while in transit across the sea. Each “Phase 3” represents Jesus’ healing (and/or exorcising) of people who either come to him or that are brought to him following his arrival on the other side of the sea. Then there are other healings or exorcisms that are interspersed among the intervals that follow each “Phase 3”. Each cycle of this triad occupies one day, so the whole ring structure represents three days, ending with a resolution on the third day — all of which concludes by transitioning into a debate regarding who Jesus really is and what the gospel really is (Mark 8.27-9.1, which is the first time we hear Jesus speak about any of this himself).
Prior to this triad, Jesus had also journeyed to the sea and taught by the sea three times without embarking on a boat (Mark 1.16, 2.13, and 3.7), and then he embarks on a boat (Mark 4.1, and 3.9), and makes six journeys by boat, three eventful ones (each being a part of a three-phase cycle repeated three times) and three uneventful ones that constitute a looser pattern (Mark 5.21, 6.32, and 8.10). In between the three eventful sea journey cycles, we find two intervals where Jesus travels inland away from the sea of Galilee and back again, and these two journeys also share another triadic pattern: three land journeys in chiastic arrangement. The first one, from the shore to the house of Jairus (Mark 5.22), then another from the house of Jairus to the hometown of Jesus (Mark 6.1), and finally from the hometown of Jesus to circulating around the towns (Mark 6.6), thus completing “Interval 1”. Then the sequence is reversed, first circulating around the towns (Mark 6.56), followed by stopping at Tyre (Mark 7.24), and finally back to the shore (Mark 7.31), thus completing “Interval 2”. So the arrangement appears to be ABC : CBA.
In both intervals, the first stop is always at a house, and in each case involves women and children. Each circulating phase involves both the disciples and the authorities (Herod or the Pharisees). The second stop in each interval is also an inversion of the other. In the first case, in his hometown (a metaphor for Israel), “Those hearing him” are “astonished” and don’t believe in him (a metaphor for the Jews rejecting the gospel), while in the second case, in a foreign country among the gentiles, where he miraculously makes a man “hear” and the people are “astonished” in the exact opposite sense, saying he does everything well and proclaiming and spreading his fame everywhere. So in both cases, “they were amazed”, yet the first was negative amazement, and the second, positive amazement. As we can see, every unit of this narrative appears to serve the same purpose, a particular message about faith and the gospel, with the incomprehension of the disciples and rejection of Jesus by his neighbors and kin on the one hand, and the near instant faith of outsiders on the other hand, despite the fact that they don’t even understand it. We even see this cyclic triad beginning and ending with the theme of “seeing, hearing, understanding” (Mark 4.12 versus Mark 8.17-21), and it continually contrasts human expectations with the actual realities that Mark explains of the gospel.

Adding to this already brilliant triadic ring structure is another one interwoven within it: two matching sequences of five miracles each, interspersed with parables, preaching, and some general references to miracles. All of the narrated miracles in the triad form a well crafted sequential structure:
1st Sequence:

“Mastery of the Waters” (Stilling of the Storm) 4.35-41

“Exorcism of a Gentile Man” (The Gerasene Demoniac) 5.1-20

“Curing an Older Woman” (The Woman with a Hemorrhage) 5.25-34

“Curing of a Younger Woman” (Jairus’ Daughter) 5.21-23, 35-43

“Miraculous Feeding” (Feeding of the 5,000) 6.34-44, 53

2nd Sequence:

“Mastery of the Waters” (Jesus Walks on the Sea) 6.45-51

“Exorcism of a Gentile Woman” (The Syrophoenician Woman) 7.24-30

“Curing of a Deaf Man with Spit” (The Deaf Mute) 7.32-37

“Miraculous Feeding” (Feeding of the 4,000) 8.1-10

“Curing a Blind Man with Spit” (The Blind Man of Bethsaida) 8.22-26

It should be noted that many miracle narratives of Jewish holy men, including Moses, exhibit a sequence of five miracles, and in fact the two sequences that Mark uses have notable correlations with the wilderness narrative of Moses (Exodus 13-17), thus suggesting another likely source that Mark used for his miracle sequences.
Another literary construct that Mark employs involves the way he structured the entire Gospel, basically into four different parts: The Discipling Narrative (Chapters 1-3), The Sea Narrative (as described before, chapters 4.1-8.26), The Road Narrative (Chapters 8.27-10), and The Passover Narrative (Chapters 11-16). While there is already a brilliant internal several-layer triadic ring structure in the Sea Narrative, there is yet another chiastic ring structure surrounding it, where the Discipling Narrative and Road Narrative mirror each other around the central Sea Narrative as follows:
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Supportive documentation please.
A – Peripheral ministry begins (1.14-34)

B – People looking for Jesus to be healed (1.35-38), but Jesus says he needs to teach more people.

C – Jesus ventures out (“throughout all Galilee”; 1.39-45)

D – Jesus stops at Capernaum (2.1-12), and explains that he can forgive sins.

E – Problems and controversies (2.13-3.12)

F – An important gathering on a mountain (3.13-19)

G – Jesus is accused of being in league with Baalzebul (3.20-35), and preaches that those who reject Jesus are damned.

— The Sea Narrative (Chapters 4-8) —

G – Jesus accuses Peter of being in league with Satan (8.27-9.1), and preaches those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit are damned.

F – An important gathering on a mountain (9.2-13)

E – Problems and controversies (9.14-32)

D – Jesus stops at Capernaum (9.33-50)

C – Jesus ventures out (expands his ministry beyond Galilee; 10.1-6)

B – People looking to Jesus for boons (10.17-45)

A – Peripheral ministry ends (10.46-52)

Just as was most typical in the myths and legends of counter-cultural sages, Jesus’ ministry has two phases, the central one (in Jerusalem) and the peripheral one (outside Jerusalem). In Mark’s Gospel, Jesus’ central ministry doesn’t begin until the last narrative, that of the Passover. In the Passover narrative we see a few more ways where Mark employs triads, having three women who appear three times, touching each of the three days of Jesus’ death and resurrection (and at three stages: his death, his burial, and his resurrection). Another notable finding within the Passover Narrative are parallels to Jesus’ Baptism mentioned earlier in Mark. For example:

A- John cries with a loud voice (1.3)

A – Jesus cries with a loud voice (15.34)

B – An allusion is made to Elijah (Mark 1.6; 2 Kings 1.8)

B – An allusion is made to Elijah (15.34-36)

C – The heavens are torn (1.10)

C – The temple curtain is torn (15.38), which is a symbol of the barrier between earth and heaven.

D – Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus (1.10)
D – Holy Spirit departs from Jesus (15.37)

E – God calls Jesus his son (1.11)
E – The centurion calls Jesus God’s son (15.19)

The odds of these coincidences arising by chance is quite small to say the least, so it appears Mark used this Jesus as a model for his own to serve some particular literary or theological purpose. In any case, we can see that Mark is writing fiction here, through and through.


The final parallel that I wanted to mention was that found between the Passover Narrative and the story of a different Jesus, named Jesus ben Ananias. This was a man who was known as an insane prophet that was active in the 60s CE who was then killed in the siege of Jerusalem (around 70 CE). His story was told in Josephus’ Jewish War, and thus Mark was likely to have known about it, and the number of parallels between what Josephus wrote and that of Mark’s Passover Narrative are far too numerous to be a mere coincidence. Clearly Mark either wrote his narrative based off of what Josephus wrote, or based on the same tale known to Josephus. Here are the parallels between Mark’s Jesus and that of Jesus ben Ananias as found in Josephus’ writings:

1 – Both are named Jesus. (Mark 14.2 = JW 6.301)

2 – Both come to Jerusalem during a major religious festival. (Mark 11.15-17 = JW 6.301)

3 -Both entered the temple area to rant against the temple. (Mark 14.2 = JW 6.301)

4 – During which both quote the same chapter of Jeremiah. (Jer. 7.11 in Mk, Jer. 7.34 in JW)

5 – Both then preach daily in the temple. (Mark 14.49 = JW 6.306)

6 – Both declared “woe” unto Judea or the Jews. (Mark 13.17 = JW 6.304, 306, 309)

7 – Both predict the temple will be destroyed. (Mark 13.2 = JW 6.300, 309)

8 – Both are for this reason arrested by the Jews. (Mark 14.43 = JW 6.302)

9 – Both are accused of speaking against the temple. (Mark 14.58 = JW 6.302)

10 – Neither makes any defense of himself against the charges. (Mark 14.60 = JW 6.302)

11 – Both are beaten by the Jews. (Mark 14.65 = JW 6.302)

12 – Then both are taken to the Roman governor. (Pilate in Mark 15.1 = Albinus in JW 6.302)
13 – Both are interrogated by the Roman governor. (Mark 15.2-4 = JW 6.305)

14 – During which both are asked to identify themselves. (Mark 15.2 = JW 6.305)

15 – And yet again neither says anything in his defense. (Mark 15.3-5 = JW 6.305)

16 – Both are then beaten by the Romans. (Mark 15.15 = JW 6.304)

17 – In both cases the Roman governor decides he should release him. (Mark 14.2 = JW 6.301)

18 – But doesn’t (Mark)…but does (JW) — (Mark 15.6-15 = JW 6.305)

19 – Both are finally killed by the Romans: in Mark, by execution; in the JW, by artillery. (Mark 15.34 = JW 6.308-9)

20 – Both utter a lament for themselves immediately before they die. (Mark 15.34 = JW 6.309)

21 – Both die with a loud cry. (Mark 15.37 = JW 6.309)
The odds of these coincidences arising by chance is quite small to say the least, so it appears Mark used this Jesus as a model for his own to serve some particular literary or theological purpose. In any case, we can see that Mark is writing fiction here, through and through.
The last scene in Mark’s Gospel that I’d like to mention is that of Jesus clearing the temple (11.18). This is another unbelievable claim, especially since the temple grounds were enormous, occupying many acres (the temple as a whole occupied nearly forty acres, and a large portion of that, more than ten acres, was devoted to public space), and they were extensively populated. In fact, there would have been hundreds of merchants and moneychangers there, and the temple would have been heavily guarded by an armed force deployed specifically to prevent this sort of thing from happening. Jesus would have been killed on the spot had this actually occurred. It appears that Mark added this scene for another literary purpose, namely the parallel between Jesus and Jeremiah. When Jesus clears the temple he quotes Jeremiah 7.11 (in Mark 11.17). Jeremiah and Jesus both enter the temple (Jer. 7.1-2; Mark 11.15), they both make the same accusation against the corruption of the temple cult (Jeremiah quoting a revelation from the Lord, Jesus quoting Jeremiah), and they both predict the destruction of the temple (Jer. 7.12-14; Mark 14.57-58; 15.29). Mark thus appears to be exhibiting knowledge that the Romans would destroy the temple, further illustrating that he was writing this Gospel after 70 CE, and so he composed a fictional story to suit the fulfillment of that “prediction”.

So we can see a large number of literary sources that Mark merely re-wrote for his fiction, a large number of parallels with other sources, many strange coincidences and other implausibilities, and most impressively several intricately crafted literary structures (some interwoven into others and/or several layers in complexity) and other literary devices that obviously served some overall literary purpose that Mark was trying to accomplish. It’s easy to see why Mark would have to invent the various narrative materials that he did (hence the numerous historical implausibilities) in order to get the literary structure he wanted to work successfully.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Supportive documentation please.
Marks use of the Epistles of Paul are covered in this post,
Mark's Use of Paul's Epistles • Richard Carrier

sourced from:
and from Carrier as well.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I finally had some time to watch the video this morning is there any specific point that you want to have conversation on?

Some of the claims

1 Infinitie past (philosophy): the refutation was based on a strawman, nobody is claiming that the concept of infinity is logically absurd, nobody denies that in the world of mathematics the concept is perfectly coherent and useful. The claim is that in the real world you can’t have an actual infinite number of things (pretty much like in the real world you cant Imaginary numbers, you can’t have i+2 balls in a room

2 Infinite past(science): of course there are models that suggest a past infinite, but having model is not a big of a deal, even YEC and Flat earhthers have their own models. The claim is that the current evidence that we have suggests that the universe had a beginning……. For example everyone in the video agrees that any universe that is UN average on a state of expansion would have to be a universe with a beginning, and our universe seems to be expanding (and has always been expanding) sure we don’t know with 100% certainty, but that is what the evidence suggests.

3 Causality; well WLC provides 3 arguments in support of premise 1 in the KCA and the video only addressed 1 of these argument (the weakest in my opinion) but if the atheist is forces to deny the causal principle in order to avoid the KCA I would see that as a victory for the theist.


I can talk about this but first it has no relation to proving that Muhammad experienced revelations from Gabrielle. It has no relation to the war deity Yahweh copied from Mesopotamian and other religions or the absolute copy-cat myth of Jesus from Hellenism/Persian and some Roman religions. Those are myths, written as myths and taken from myths. There is no chance any of it isn't fiction. General deism has no bearing on Zeus, Yahweh or Krishna.

I just heard Professor Francesca Stavrakopoulou say nothing in the Bible is original. 8:54 after she describes the poem about Inana (the first author ever)

Francesca Stavrakopoulou is a British biblical scholar and broadcaster. She is currently Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Religion at the University of Exeter. The main focus of her research is on the Hebrew Bible, and on Israelite and Judahite history and religion
 

joelr

Well-Known Member

How does that affect the claim that most of the verifiable historical / geographic / demographic / political / economical details reported in the gospels happen to be true?

Most myths (we went through this?) are set among real people, places, events. Fiction still does this?

History Collection | Covering History's Untold Stories
The history of humanity is the history of stories. Fantastical feats of strength by legendary warriors, tales of daring romance, and of great sacrifices or devilish betrayals, mankind is fascinated by a good story. However, when it comes to ancient history, the lines can be difficult to draw between fact and fiction. Whilst Arthur likely did not receive a sword from a woman living in a lake which made him King of England, nor Jesus resurrect himself after being put to death by the Romans, simply because one aspect of a story is untrue does not invalidate the existence of the primary characters themselves. Instead, and most commonly, these abstract and unrealistic individuals are couched in some semblance of real-life, borrowing from persons from history and subsequently embellishing them, sometimes beyond recognition, for the purposes of creating a good narrative.
-Amalgamated by 12th-century chronicler Geoffrey of Monmouth in his Historia Regum Britanniae, written in 1136, the person known to audiences today as Merlin is actually a merging of Myrddin Wyllt and Ambrosius Aurelianus.
-King of Troy in the Trojan War has been identified by archaeologists

-Croseus of Lydia was mentioned in Heroditus Histories
-
Paris of Troy – the chief cause of the Trojan War following his elopement with Helen, Queen of Sparta - has been identified as a living person

Muhammad had eyewitnesses who are real.
The first 4 caliphs, who are the aṣḥāb held in highest esteem among Sunni Muslims, are part of a group of 10 Companions to whom Muhammad promised paradise. The muhājirūn (those who followed the Prophet from Mecca to Medina in the Hijrah), the anṣār (the Medinese believers), and the badriyyūn (those who fought at the Battle of Badr) are all considered Companions of the Prophet. There are differing accounts of who belonged to the various groups.


The Companions, being eyewitnesses, are the most important sources of Hadith, the record of Muhammad’s sayings and activities. Shiʿi Muslims, however, take a more critical approach than the Sunnis toward the reports of the ṣaḥābah, some of whom they consider responsible for the loss of the caliphate by Ahl al-Bayt (the family of the Prophet through ʿAlī and Fāṭimah).

The highly educated writers from the Greek school of rhetoric (there was only one) were setting a story in Israel, this is what scriptures do? The paces and details may be real but the supernatural is not.
Eyewitness or not no angel visited Muhammad.

Embarrassing is simply anything that goes against the purpose or the agenda of the author.

For example if I claimed to have seen a Ghost and I claim that my only witness is my 3yo daughter, then it is likely that I am not just inventing stuff and lying otherwise I would have invented a more credible witness.

The gospels are full of such details, for example death by crucifixion is an example of an embarrassing detail, the messiah was not supposed to die, let alone die in such a shameful way, …. If the authors of the gospels would have had the intend to lie in order to promote their agenda they would have invented a more honorable death.

You don't know what that society considered embarrassing. However martyrdom in Judaism was far from embarrasing.-

Religious martyrdom is considered one of the more significant contributions of Second Temple Judaism to western civilization. It is believed that the concept of voluntary death for God developed out of the conflict between King Antiochus Epiphanes IV and the Jewish people. 1 Maccabees and 2 Maccabees recount numerous martyrdoms suffered by Jews resisting the Hellenizing of their Seleucid overlords, being executed for such crimes as observing the Sabbath, circumcising their children or refusing to eat pork or meat sacrificed to foreign gods. With few exceptions, this assumption has lasted from the early Christian period to this day, accepted both by Jews and Christians.

According to Daniel Boyarin, there are "two major theses with regard to the origins of Christian martyrology, which [can be referred to] as the Frend thesis and the Bowersock thesis". Boyarin characterizes W.H.C. Frend's view of martyrdom as having originated in "Judaism" and Christian martyrdom as a continuation of that practice. Frend argues that the Christian concept of martyrdom can only be understood as springing from Jewish roots. Frend characterizes Judaism as "a religion of martyrdom" and that it was this "Jewish psychology of martyrdom" that inspired Christian martyrdom. Frend writes, "In the first two centuries AD. there was a living pagan tradition of self-sacrifice for a cause, a preparedness if necessary to defy an unjust ruler, that existed alongside the developing Christian concept of martyrdom inherited from Judaism."[6]

In contrast to Frend's hypothesis, Boyarin describes G.W. Bowersock's view of Christian martyrology as being completely unrelated to the Jewish practice, being instead "a practice that grew up in an entirely Roman cultural environment and then was borrowed by Jews". Bowersock argues that the Christian tradition of martyrdom came from the urban culture of the Roman Empire, especially in Asia Minor:

Martyrdom was ... solidly anchored in the civic life of the Graeco-Roman world of the Roman empire. It ran its course in the great urban spaces of the agora and the amphitheater, the principal settings for public discourse and for public spectacle. It depended upon the urban rituals of the imperial cult and the interrogation protocols of local and provincial magistrates. The prisons and brothels of the cities gave further opportunities for the display of the martyr’s faith.[7]

Boyarin points out that, despite their apparent opposition to each other, both of these arguments are based on the assumption that Judaism and Christianity were already two separate and distinct religions. He challenges that assumption and argues that "making of martyrdom was at least in part, part and parcel of the process of the making of Judaism and Christianity as distinct entities".[8]



But also the savior demigod mythology was for the savior to undergo a passion/death whereby they defeat death and pass on to the followers the same ability to live eternally? That is the myth?

The mythical founder of Rome Romulus also has a resurrection narrative but his is a conquest narrative. His gospel is received on the road to Rome and Jesus on the road from Jerusalem. The Romulus scripture was found to be one of Marks sources which Luke greatly expanded on. Luke rewrites the story to communicate the Christian values are different from the Roman values. N.T, Wright has identified many parallels. So the original story, Mark, was transvaluing the myth to meet Christin or Hillilite Jewish standards. So the resurrection fits with savior demigods and it fits with the Christian message as well.
A savior who defeats the enemy (like Romulus) was not their philosophy but it also wasn't their history. They had been constantly invaded and were currently under Roman rule. More reason to have an ethics the opposite of Roman ethics. This is in more detail in Carriers book.

It´s unrealistic to say that the authors of the gospels invented those embarrassing details so that Christian scholars in the year 2000s could formulate arguments.

You are making a claim which doesn't pan out. The theology of Jesus completely fits the events. Turn the other cheek. Hillilite Judaism. Romulus was a military warrior and founder of Rome. His resurrection scripture has him defeat Rome with military might. Also Rome could not be defeated that way. It had to be a spiritual victory.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
So basically your view is

1 A Crusifixtoin: impossible to lie about or to cover up

2 A man resurrecting : no, no that is very easy to lie about and it is very easy to full everybody about that event.

Support that position please.


An other alternative is

The authors reported both events because that is what they thought happened, one is embarrassing and the other is awesome , they decided to report both the good and the bad stuff


All of the savior gods including the founder of Rome Romulus were resurrected and many were crucified. Jesus supposedly took place around 30AD and the myths were not fully around until at least 70 -110.
30-70 is one human lifetime in that time. People lived to the average of 38. Too much time had passes to verify anything.

But from 100 to at least 2-300 Christianity was HALF Gnostic????? According to your beliefs that is complete heresies. The Demiurge and all sorts of mysticism are in the Gnostic gospels as Elaine Pagels shows in her book The Lost Gospels. So according to you 1/2 of Christians DID believe a complete lie?

These various interpretations were called heresies by the leaders of the proto-orthodox church, but many were very popular and had large followings. Part of the unifying trend in proto-orthodoxy was an increasingly harsh anti-Judaism and rejection of Judaizers. Some of the major movements were:

In the middle of the second century, the Christian communities of Rome, for example, were divided between followers of Marcion, Montanism, and the gnostic teachings of Valentinus.

So these Gnostic authors reported these theologies because that is what they thought was true. But why would they think it's true? OR did educated writers write gospels using older theologies, place them in local settings some were strictly Hellenistic and Persian (like the synoptic gospels) and others were from stranger sources, where ever Gnosticism is from? Roman, Egypt, ?????

As to embarrassing events, the infancy gospels would definitely be embarrassing if anything was yet it was written down AND IS FICTION????????

And you have NO IDEA what the Marcionite canon was which was FIRST?????? According to the CHurch it is FALSE, yet people wrote it down. It was fiction and it was written down. So was Gnostic scriptures. So was the Infancy gospel. So was 36 other gospels considered heresies by modern Christians. All were written down with the intent of being real scriptures. They are made up. This lends incredibly strong evidence that all the gospels were made up.
The ONLY way you can rescuse your 4 gospels is to do what the church did. Say God reached down to the councils in Rome and made sure the correct scripture was chosen. Obvious magical thinking and a complete fallacy. Resorting to magical solutions is how your religion is supported. That is total crank.


-"A good example of the second point is found in the stories of the Infancy Gospels. In one account, a very young Jesus is said to use his supernatural powers first to strike dead, and then revive, a playmate who had accidentally bumped into him. If this tradition had been accepted as worthy of inclusion at some key juncture in the formation of the Christian Bible (and hence integrated in one way or another among the Canonical Gospels), arguably many modern Christians would find it quite embarrassing—especially, strict believers in biblical inerrancy; but apparently, as is strongly suggested by the mere existence of this early non-canonical pericope, it must not have been embarrassing to at least some early Christians.[8][9][10][11]"
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
False analogy

If

1 multiple inpendent sources confirm that Elvis was seen after his dead

2 if the witnesses reported clear an unambiguous experiences where they say touched and even ate with Elvis

3 if the witnesses were willing to die for the truth of that believe.

4 if you go to his tomb and the tomb is empty


Then you would have an analogous case,


No, if an educated writer wrote a story where all of this happened and used fictive literary language it would NOT BE REAL and not be reason to think Elvis was alive.

Everything you mention is IN A STORY?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Or.... (rather than using unreliable Wikipedia)


Source #1
Author:
The Gospel of Luke does not identify its author. From Luke 1:1-4 and Acts 1:1-3, it is clear that the same author wrote both Luke and Acts, addressing both to “most excellent Theophilus,” possibly a Roman dignitary. The tradition from the earliest days of the church has been that Luke, a physician and a close companion of the Apostle Paul, wrote both Luke and Acts (Colossians 4:14; 2 Timothy 4:11). This would make Luke the only Gentile to pen any books of Scripture.

Date of Writing: The Gospel of Luke was likely written between A.D. 58 and 65.

Gospel-of-Luke.html


Source #2
The date and place of composition are uncertain, but many date the Gospel to 63–70 CE,

Gospel According to Luke | Description, History, & Facts Encyclopedia Britannica


No Fri$%%%in WAY?!?!?!?!?!
Did you just source that NON-SOURCED, NO AUTHOR WITH NO DEGREE, apologetics site as actual information??? After asking all these people for "source please" C'mon?

OMG, ? Could one religious person debate with equal standards for sources???? You feel that secular people must use scholarship (fairly) and somehow think a amateur site written by a schoolteacher using google to find apologetics fundamentalist webpages is a good source and proves your point?? What the???

And then............you say Wiki isn't a good source, even though everything is attached to some scholar that you can research? Every claim on religious wiki pages is attached to either an encyclopedia or a scholar in the field. But you STILL say it's suspect and then source something with not just no sources but NO AUTHOR???????? Unbelievable.

Then you use an actual source and fail to even relay the actual data????? You had:

"The date and place of composition are uncertain, but many date the Gospel to 63–70 CE,"

but forgot:

"others somewhat later."


and

"Like St. Matthew, Luke derives much of his Gospel from that of St. Mark, generally following Mark’s sequence and incorporating about 50 percent of Mark’s material into his work. The Gospels of Luke and Matthew, however, share a good deal of material not found in The Gospel According to Mark, suggesting that the two evangelists may have had access to another common source."

But recent scholarship has solved this as linked to earlier.
But since this is a good source, let's see what they say about Greek Hellenism?

Greek Hellenism , 300B.C. - 100 A.D., a movement that spread into all local religions and theology.
Baccic Mysteries = Phoenician + Hellenism
Mysteries of Attis and Cybele = Phhrygian + Helleniosm
Mysteries of Baal = Anatolian + Hellenism
Mysteries of Mithras = Persian + Hellenism
Isis = Egyptian + Helleniem
Osirus = Egyptian + Hellenism
Christianity = Judiasm + Hellenism/Zoroastrianism

(P Pakken - Hellenism in Ancient Religion)


Ok, Briticannica on Hellenism-(which was Greek and who occupied Israel a few centuries leading up to Christianity)
Hellenistic religion



-the seasonal drama was homologized to a soteriology (salvation concept) concerning the destiny, fortune, and salvation of the individual after death.


-his led to a change from concern for a religion of national prosperity to one for individual salvation, from focus on a particular ethnic group to concern for every human. The prophet or saviour replaced the priest and king as the chief religious figure.


-his process was carried further through the identification of the experiences of the soul that was to be saved with the vicissitudes of a divine but fallen soul, which had to be redeemed by cultic activity and divine intervention. This view is illustrated in the concept of the paradoxical figure of the saved saviour, salvator salvandus.


-Other deities, who had previously been associated with national destiny (e.g., Zeus, Yahweh, and Isis), were raised to the status of transcendent, supreme



-The temples and cult institutions of the various Hellenistic religions were repositories of the knowledge and techniques necessary for salvation and were the agents of the public worship of a particular deity. In addition, they served an important sociological role. In the new, cosmopolitan ideology that followed Alexander’s conquests, the old nationalistic and ethnic boundaries had broken down and the problem of religious and social identity had become acute.


-Most of these groups had regular meetings for a communal meal (Eucharist) that served the dual role of sacramental participation (referring to the use of material elements believed to convey spiritual benefits among the members and with their deity)


-Hellenistic philosophy (Stoicism, Cynicism, Neo-Aristotelianism, Neo-Pythagoreanism, and Neoplatonism) provided key formulations for Jewish, Christian, and Muslim philosophy, theology, and mysticism through the 18th century


- The basic forms of worship of both the Jewish and Christian communities were heavily influenced in their formative period by Hellenistic practices, and this remains fundamentally unchanged to the present time. Finally, the central religious literature of both traditions—the Jewish Talmud (an authoritative compendium of law, lore, and interpretation), the New Testament, and the later patristic literature of the early Church Fathers—are characteristic Hellenistic documents both in form and content.


-Other traditions even more radically reinterpreted the ancient figures. The cosmic or seasonal drama was interiorized to refer to the divine soul within man that must be liberated.


-Each persisted in its native land with little perceptible change save for its becoming linked to nationalistic or messianic movements (centring on a deliverer figure)


-and apocalyptic traditions (referring to a belief in the dramatic intervention of a god in human and natural events)


- Particularly noticeable was the success of a variety of prophets, magicians, and healers—e.g., John the Baptist, Jesus, Simon Magus, Apollonius of Tyana, Alexander the Paphlagonian, and the cult of the healer Asclepius—whose preaching corresponded to the activities of various Greek and Roman philosophic missionaries


Add this to Judaism and you have Christianity. You need some Persian theology as well for Satan, Revelation, virgin born world saviors,
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The Gospels as Allegorical Myth, Part I of 4: Mark
Previously, I’ve written about the historicity of Jesus, and mentioned how the most recent analysis, in Richard Carrier’s On the Historicity of Jesus (the first comprehensive, academically published, and formally peer-reviewed book written on the subject), showed that it was in fact very unlikely that Jesus Christ ever existed as a historical person, but rather likely began as a celestial deity who was later euhemerized, that is, placed into history as if he were a real person.

Without going through all of you what you wrote (I really appreciate your effort) - this part sets the tone.

With the emboldened letters - this truly shows the bias.

The historicity of Jesus really can't be denied.

Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ? | GotQuestions.org

"In terms of ancient manuscript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D."

There really aren't many people who will support the position that Jesus never existed.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I won't be able to address all your posts... (you are a prolific writer) :)

Another interesting coincidence is the name Barabbas itself, an unusual name that means ‘Son of the Father’ in Aramaic, and Jesus is often portrayed as the ‘Son of the Father’ as well. So in this story we have two sons of the father; one released into the wild mob carrying the sins of Israel (such as murder and rebellion), effectively serving as an allegorical scapegoat (Barabbas), and the other sacrificed so his blood may atone for the sins of Israel (Jesus) — and we have one bearing the sins literally, and the other bearing the sins figuratively (just as we find in the Yom Kippur ceremony of Leviticus 16 in the Old Testament). We get further confirmation of this belief in the Epistle to the Hebrews (9-10), where we hear Jesus’ death described as the ultimate Yom Kippur atonement sacrifice. Interestingly enough, it is also implied in this part of Hebrews that Jesus’ death and resurrection would have taken place in the heavens, as that was where the most perfect atonement sacrifice would be made and where the most perfect holy temple would be for which to pour the blood of that sacrifice (another element supporting the contention that Jesus was initially believed to be a celestial deity rather than a historical person). So Mark here appears to be telling us through his own parable, to reject the sins of the Jews (notably violence and rebellion) and instead embrace the eternal salvation offered through the atonement sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Unfortunately, Barabbas doesn't qualify (as even "Joshua - Jehovah is Salvation" didn't either. Barabbas was a sinner. Jesus was not.

If you go through the actual scapegoat ritual as well as the sacrificing of the lamb during Passover (of which Jesus was going through at the same time) - only Jesus satisfies the picture.

As far as the "heavenly" sacrifice - Yes and No. Yes, even as the Temple pictured the Heavenly Temple - Jesus earthly pouring of his blood was both earthly as well as heavenly but the sacrifice was only on the earth.

Additionally, in this story, Mark seems to be pointing out how the Jews are erroneously viewing Jesus as the scapegoat,:

"Seems" is hardly good enough. Actually, there is absolutely no reference to that.

As stated by Mark " 24 “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them. 25 “Truly I tell you, I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”

and again, " Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

So. I cannot agree.

Furthermore, rather than using a random lottery (i.e. God) to choose which “goat” would serve as the scapegoat, and which would serve as the atonement, the Jews removed God from the equation and made the choice themselves. If one looks at all of these elements together, we can see just how brilliant Mark’s story is, having multiple allegorical layers weaved into one.
Only a few verses later, we read about the rest of the crucifixion narrative and find a link (a literary source) with the Book of Psalms in the Old Testament (OT):

Mark 15.24: “They part his garments among them, casting lots upon them.”

Psalm 22:18: “They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon them.”

Mark 15.29-31: “And those who passed by blasphemed him, shaking their heads and saying, ‘…Save yourself…’ and mocked him, saying ‘He who saved others cannot save himself!’ ”

Psalm 22.7-8: “All those who see me mock me and give me lip, shaking their head, saying ‘He expected the lord to protect him, so let the lord save him if he likes.’ ”

Mark 15.34: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Psalm 22.1: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Yes, Jesus is "weaved" through the whole of the TaNaKh.

As it was quantified:

The Statistical Probability of Jesus Fulfilling the Messianic Prophecies


As for some other notable coincidences, we see Mark reversing a few details in his version of the story. Instead of a woman begging for her son, it is a man begging for his daughter. While in 2 Kings, an unnamed woman comes from a named town (Shunem) which means “rest”, in Mark we have a named man coming from an unnamed town, and the man’s name (Jairus) means “awaken”. In Mark’s conclusion to this story (5.42), he mentions that “immediately they were amazed with great amazement”, and he appears to have borrowed this line from 2 Kings as well (4.13 as found in the Greek Septuagint version of 2 Kings), which says “You have been amazed by all this amazement for us”. It’s important to note that this verse from 2 Kings (as found in the Greek Septuagint), refers to an earlier encounter between the unnamed woman and Elisha where he was previously a guest in her home and this verse was what the woman had said to Elisha on that occasion. Then Elisha blesses her with a miraculous conception (as she was said to be a barren woman in 2 Kings). In fact, this miraculous conception was of the very son that Elisha would later resurrect from the dead. So to add to this use of 2 Kings we also have another reversal from Mark, reversing the placement of this reaction (double amazement) from the child’s miraculous conception (in 2 Kings) to the child’s miraculous resurrection (in Mark 5.42).

These aren't coincidences. This is God sending a love letter to us.

Another hint that Mark is writing historical fiction in his Gospel is the way he structures his narrative such that he can successfully accomplish certain literary goals rather than historical plausibility. One primary example of this is the ceaseless incomprehension of the disciples to what Jesus is saying and doing, where they are quite honestly dumber than can be reasonably believed. This archetype of the “dense lackeys” appears to be adapted either from Homer’s similarly unrealistic portrayal of Odysseus’ fickle and clueless crew, or the portrayal of the Jews in Exodus. Mark’s use of this type of literary device, requiring the invention of narrative material to make the structure work, thus allows him to accomplish a certain literary theme that wouldn’t have been possible otherwise.

So this remains as a personal viewpoint -- The fact that it interlaces with the other Gospels and the whole of the TaNaKh - for me - it makes it true and not historical fiction (although there are many other reasons)
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Without going through all of you what you wrote (I really appreciate your effort) - this part sets the tone.

With the emboldened letters - this truly shows the bias.

The historicity of Jesus really can't be denied.

Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ? | GotQuestions.org

"In terms of ancient manuscript evidence, this is extraordinarily strong proof of the existence of a man named Jesus in Israel in the early first century A.D."

There really aren't many people who will support the position that Jesus never existed.


First, I made a post about that site. You asked for sources from me regarding this post. And now you post a no-author, NON SOURCED internet page???????????
I dealt with this travesty in a recent post , please read it and stop being "that guy". You want sources, you claimed Wiki isn't good and you source UN AUTHORED, NO SOURCED pages who are clearly BIAS apologists?


Anyways. I'm not reading that. Source a historian. I've read Bart Ehrman and many many others so I know.

First, the tone of the blog post I linked to should not be considered. It's the information from Dr Carrier that is important. If you don't think an apologist site is just as bias you are delusional. Just read it for the information which Dr Carrier compiled. There is more about Mark in his book but this explains some of what I said.


2nd, there is a debate about historicity vs mythicism. Carrier and Lataster have peer-reviewed books on mythicism. Many others like Ehrman and other NT historians believe in historicity. So it's a debate. It isn't important for us. The gospels are stories and all historical mentions are talking about people who believe the gospels. Josephus is a forgery and there is plenty of scholarship on that.
Historicity in the historical field means a Jewish Rabbi named Jesus existed. Not a Greek savior demigod who rose in 3 days like many other savior deities. I will source that, with a author, who has a PhD and is an expert in Jesus historicity. No historian believes the gospel Jesus is real, that is a myth. I am fine with granting the myth was set on a real Jewish preacher preaching Hillite wisdom. You can see Rabbi Hillel the elder, on Wiki was teahing, before Jesus, all the same basic material. I have read about this from scholars on Judaism as well but Wiki sums it up.


"When the question of the historicity of Jesus comes up in an honest professional context, we are not asking whether the Gospel Jesus existed. All non-fundamentalist scholars agree that that Jesus never did exist. Christian apologetics is pseudo-history. No different than defending Atlantis. Or Moroni. Or women descending from Adam’s rib.

No. We aren’t interested in that.

When it comes to Jesus, just as with anyone else, real history is about trying to figure out what, if anything, we can really know about the man depicted in the New Testament (his actual life and teachings), through untold layers of distortion and mythmaking; and what, if anything, we can know about his role in starting the Christian movement that spread after his death. Consequently, I will here disregard fundamentalists and apologists as having no honest part in this debate, any more than they do on evolution or cosmology or anything else they cannot be honest about even to themselves.


Historicity Big and Small: How Historians Try to Rescue Jesus • Richard Carrier
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member

How does that affect the claim that most of the verifiable historical / geographic / demographic / political / economical details reported in the gospels happen to be true?


Wjy do you think that help you? Once again, some of the errors are very very egregious.





Embarrassing is simply anything that goes against the purpose or the agenda of the author.

For example if I claimed to have seen a Ghost and I claim that my only witness is my 3yo daughter, then it is likely that I am not just inventing stuff and lying otherwise I would have invented a more credible witness.

The gospels are full of such details, for example death by crucifixion is an example of an embarrassing detail, the messiah was not supposed to die, let alone die in such a shameful way, …. If the authors of the gospels would have had the intend to lie in order to promote their agenda they would have invented a more honorable death.



It´s unrealistic to say that the authors of the gospels invented those embarrassing details so that Christian scholars in the year 2000s could formulate arguments

And not the supid "embarrassing argument BS again! I guess the tank is running on fumes this morning.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I won't be able to address all your posts... (you are a prolific writer) :)



Unfortunately, Barabbas doesn't qualify (as even "Joshua - Jehovah is Salvation" didn't either. Barabbas was a sinner. Jesus was not.

If you go through the actual scapegoat ritual as well as the sacrificing of the lamb during Passover (of which Jesus was going through at the same time) - only Jesus satisfies the picture.

As far as the "heavenly" sacrifice - Yes and No. Yes, even as the Temple pictured the Heavenly Temple - Jesus earthly pouring of his blood was both earthly as well as heavenly but the sacrifice was only on the earth.

That's why Jesus atoned for sins? Your not getting the parable and why it looks like myth. First the Romans didn't historically release prisoners like that. But Barabbas needs to be a murder? That makes the parable perfect? This is brilliant myth making.

"
So Mark seems to be portraying the Jews as acting completely blind to the situation and choosing their sins (i.e. Barabbas) rather than their salvation (i.e. Jesus). Finally, this story seems to suggest that the Jews have also chosen the wrong model for the expected messiah. Whereas Barabbas could be seen as the murderous revolutionary, in line with the common Jewish belief that the messiah was expected to be a kind of revolutionary military leader, Jesus on the other hand, exemplified the suffering servant model of the messiah (another Jewish messianic model, though arguably less popular than the former), and one that would circumvent any need for a military revolution by enacting a spiritual victory through his death instead. So the Jews appear to have chosen the type of messiah they want, rather than the type of messiah that God wants instead (or so Mark believes anyway). Furthermore, rather than using a random lottery (i.e. God) to choose which “goat” would serve as the scapegoat, and which would serve as the atonement, the Jews removed God from the equation and made the choice themselves. If one looks at all of these elements together, we can see just how brilliant Mark’s story is, having multiple allegorical layers weaved into one.

"Seems" is hardly good enough. Actually, there is absolutely no reference to that.

As stated by Mark " 24 “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them. 25 “Truly I tell you, I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”

and again, " Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

So. I cannot agree.
Both quotes do nothing to negate the idea?
We get further confirmation of this belief in the Epistle to the Hebrews (9-10), where we hear Jesus’ death described as the ultimate Yom Kippur atonement sacrifice. The people ARE choosing Barabbas? They are hugging him and making the mistake of choosing their sins instead of salvation. That is exactly whats happening. Mark is writing a brilliant narrative here.
The quotes you posted show Jesus is the atonement, that IS the point?! The correct choice is Jesus but Mark has them choose Barabas at first.

-Whereas Barabbas could be seen as the murderous revolutionary, in line with the common Jewish belief that the messiah was expected to be a kind of revolutionary military leader, Jesus on the other hand, exemplified the suffering servant model of the messiah (another Jewish messianic model, though arguably less popular than the former), and one that would circumvent any need for a military revolution by enacting a spiritual victory through his death instead. So the Jews appear to have chosen the type of messiah they want, rather than the type of messiah that God wants instead (or so Mark believes anyway).

That does happen like that, it's weaving multiple allegories into the story. Yes Jesus is the suffering messianic figure and Barabbas is the militant savior. Mark is writing against the Romulus narrative. Romulus is the savior of Rome who died and was resurrected (a myth) but he was Romes savior through military might.


Yes, Jesus is "weaved" through the whole of the TaNaKh.

As it was quantified:

The Statistical Probability of Jesus Fulfilling the Messianic Prophecies

Oh wow, you really don't care about what is true at all? So again, who is the source? Who is Nick Candy? Is his work peer-reviewed? Is he a PhD in statistical probability?

I'm dissapointed you ended on such wu however because there is a lot of good information in Carriers writing (or other scholars he's using) and you went with a ridiculous apologetics? There is incredibly solid evidence that Mark is re-writing several OT narratives. So he knows the OT and is using it for a source to create. So the odds that the Jesus character was written to fulfill the prophecies is extremely high.
Yet you post an amateur article about how amazing it is that.....? Mark wrote fiction? He wrote the character so he fulfills the prophecy? That's what writers do when writing a next chapter??????

Why would you post this?




These aren't coincidences. This is God sending a love letter to us.

No they are not coincidences, Mark is reversing the story. This is mythology and it isn't even original but the writing is excellent. Interesting to see how fundamentalists deal with this information though.

Now nice of God to send a love letter that the entire Christian scholarship has decided means something entirely different. Is it fun for God to mess with people? That's a love letter? I think you are using the conspiracy theory logic.
But look, if you are going to ask for sources like when I say Mark used sources so we know it wasn't oral tradition, then I bother to give scholarship which demonstrates that Mark very likely used the OT narratives and you hand wave it off with "oh a love letter form God", that is being dishonest.

You don't care if I have sources to demonstrate this or that. You will just say "oh God did it for fun".
"Oh God wanted older savior deities who rose in 3 days just because he blah whatever.......

So you really don't care, you are not here to debate. If you get stuck you just call for magic. That is dishonest and total magic thinking. Fundamentalists do it, Law of Attraction people do it, they pretend to want information but if they can't debunk it they just say "God needs it that way".
So your beliefs can never possibly find new information. Muslims also do this.


So this remains as a personal viewpoint -- The fact that it interlaces with the other Gospels and the whole of the TaNaKh - for me - it makes it true and not historical fiction (although there are many other reasons)

Well your own religion disagrees with you. Bible.org is not a historical site, It is actual Christian scholarship and they support the theology as being real.
Christian scholars have come to terms with the facts which cannot be denied. Mark is the source and that is why the gospels interlace.
To sum up reasons for Markan priority, the following eight arguments have been given.

(1) The argument from length. Although Mark’s Gospel is shorter, it is not an abridgment, nor a gospel built exclusively on Matthew-Luke agreement. In fact, where its pericopae parallel Matthew and/or Luke, Mark’s story is usually the longest. The rich material left out of his gospel is inexplicable on the Griesbach hypothesis.

(2) The argument from grammar. Matthew and especially Luke use better grammar and literary style than Mark, suggesting that they used Mark, but improved on it.

(3) The argument from harder readings. On the analogy of early scribal habits, Luke and Matthew apparently removed difficulties from Mark’s Gospel in making their own. If Matthean priority is assumed, then what is inexplicable is why Mark would have introduced such difficulties.

(4) The argument from verbal agreement. There are fewer Matthew-Luke verbal agreements than any other two-gospel verbal agreements. This is difficult to explain on the Griesbach hypothesis, much easier on the Lachmann/Streeter hypothesis.

(5) The argument from agreement in order. Not only do Luke and Matthew never agree with each other when they depart from Mark’s order, but the reasons for this on the assumption of Markan priority are readily available while on Matthean priority they are not.

(6) The argument from literary agreements. Very close to the redactional argument, this point stresses that on literary analysis, it is easier to see Matthew’s use of Mark than vice versa.

(7) The argument from redaction. The redactional emphases in Mark, especially in his stylistic minutiae, are only inconsistently found in Matthew and Luke, while the opposite is not true. In other words, Mark’s style is quite consistent, while Luke and Matthew are inconsistent—when they parallel Mark, there is consistency; when they diverge, they depart from such. This suggests that Mark was the source for both Matthew and Luke.

(8) The argument from Mark’s more primitive theology. On many fronts Mark seems to display a more primitive theology than either Luke or Matthew. This suggests that Matthew and Luke used Mark, altering the text to suit their purposes.

The Synoptic Problem | Bible.org
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
First, I made a post about that site. You asked for sources from me regarding this post. And now you post a no-author, NON SOURCED internet page???????????
I dealt with this travesty in a recent post , please read it and stop being "that guy". You want sources, you claimed Wiki isn't good and you source UN AUTHORED, NO SOURCED pages who are clearly BIAS apologists?


Anyways. I'm not reading that. Source a historian. I've read Bart Ehrman and many many others so I know.

You are absolutely right... I didn't source it. I saw that it had all the information so I posted it... my apologies.

Would you like me to get all the sources that is common knowledge? Happy to do so.

The information is correct but happy to do so.

Erhman has a noted anti-Bible stance. If that is your diet... I understand why you have the position.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Question...how could a story about a man human be written involving humans science thesis until after all events?

You couldn't.

So your mind says of course the man Jesus hadn't preceded himself.

The story Jesus involved a huge amount of summation study cause effects and human practiced sciences.

So Jesus the man by most of the advice hadn't existed. By the terms explained.

As a man is born a baby lives about 100 years only.

Says a logical human thinker.

The theme evidence why human life was sacrificed hence involved old human Jewish Egyptian advice.

Plus new Roman science control causes

Temple control of pyramid circuit Jeru Salem most important.

Evolved Jewish historical advice updated in a new study named Christianity.

Dual evidence.

Non stop old to new correlations of causes and effects. Very similar phenomena was proven.

Whilst pyramid temple science was practiced.

Humans in machine control the theist thinkers rich humanity not attacked.

The everyday non theist poor humanity attacked.

Common rich man's used theme...you deserve it...you are all nobody.

True to the human behaviour teaching.

Hence only a theist science human could have assessed and written the testimonial.

Not written by the human in the experience as they were living supposedly with no meaning to the rich.

Why you can't trace it to a human man's consciousness

Which is what you are studying bio life mind for today.

For the connective paths of the scientists thoughts as if it's connected to out of space.

Whereas machines communicating a man's design was.

So you preach. No machine just mass was the origin...just a star.

The saviour.

For a human thinker to be forced to think for yourself as an innocent first and not by social rich man reasoning indoctrination lying.

Exact reasons why.

So you must. Be that innocent and think for yourself.

The God theism teaching said mutual family equality was first on gods earth with God terms.

Before man's science evicted life from the garden...science.

Science isn't O natural planet.
Science isn't heavens mass.

Science is man's practice direct.

Caused change then effects.

As no man is God. Exact.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Answering post 162.
Where does the Tanakh say that a messiah will die by crucifixion and be resurrected?

That would depend on which passages are seen as Messianic.
Isa 53 is Messianic and insinuates atoning suffering and death and resurrection.
Psalm 22 shows details of what happened to Jesus when crucified.
Psalm 16:9-11 shows God's Holy/Faithful one not decaying or being left in sheol.


I really don't see how that follows. All four gospel versions of Jesus purported to be God's messenger or envoy, and each expressly denied he was God. Why then would they think his actual death changed what they had come to believe?

The Jesuses of Mark, Matthew and Luke had also each promised that the Son of Man would come and establish the Kingdom of God on earth in the lifetime of some of Jesus' audience. The NT seems to strongly identify Jesus with the Son of Man without actually spelling it out, so why would the apostles go home just because Jesus was dead?

Nobody denies Jesus is God. The gospels do affirm that He is the Son of God however.
Jesus had said that He was to be killed and rise from the dead on the 3rd day. That is why the disciples would go home and back to their day job if He did not rise from the dead.
Why do you think they would tell lies about Jesus rising from the dead at the risk of their own lives?

It's unlikely to the point of impossible that Jesus had suffered irreversible cessation of his body's life functions, and nonetheless returned to life, Given that there is no eyewitness account, no contemporary account, no independent account of the resurrection and that the versions of it in the NT each contradict the others on major points, on the evidence of the bible why would you consider the resurrection a "fact"?

The Bible evidence gives different accounts of the same events at the grave when Jesus rose and so they differ.
There is enough in the accounts to see that Jesus died on the cross and rose again. No eye witness of Jesus actually coming back to life is going to make any difference to people who do not believe the stories.
What you said shows you do not believe because it was miraculous.
John's account was eye witness since John was an apostle.
Matthew's account is of someone who was there and knew Jesus died and rose again.
Luke says his account comes from witnesses and those who were there from the start.
Mark is supposed to have his account from Peter, an eye witness as John and Matthew were.
The evidence shows the 3 synoptic gospels were written between 25 and 30 years after Jesus died.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Oh wow, you really don't care about what is true at all? So again, who is the source? Who is Nick Candy? Is his work peer-reviewed? Is he a PhD in statistical probability?

I'm dissapointed you ended on such wu however because there is a lot of good information in Carriers writing (or other scholars he's using) and you went with a ridiculous apologetics? There is incredibly solid evidence that Mark is re-writing several OT narratives. So he knows the OT and is using it for a source to create. So the odds that the Jesus character was written to fulfill the prophecies is extremely high.
Yet you post an amateur article about how amazing it is that.....? Mark wrote fiction? He wrote the character so he fulfills the prophecy? That's what writers do when writing a next chapter??????

Why would you post this?
Even worse, most of, if not all of the "prophecies that he refers to are not prophecy at all. They are merely quote mines from the Old Testament where someone said "Hey! That verse taken out of context can kinda sorta sound like it is about Jesus". When one quote mines one's "prophecies" the odds of them being "fulfilled" can be as high as 1.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Replying to post 179
Nope. Paul only had visions. Those are his own claims. He never made claims about seeing a material Jesus. And the early Church began to apply names to the Gospels quite a while after they were written. They were not "known".

True Paul did not claim to have seen Jesus, but to have had an encounter with Him.
These claims were accompanied by his blindness and subsequent healing through a Christian whom had been told about Paul.
The early church knew the gospel writers and so applied those names to the gospels.

Citation needed. The prophecy is only one of the factors for dating the Gospels. Have you not noticed that there is more to the dating than that?

What I have noticed is that the prophecy of the temple destruction is what takes the dating to after 70AD or so close that someone might have guessed what would happen.
The evidence for early writing is thrown out do that the naturalistic methodology will not be contradicted.
So in this way the authors have to be people other than the ones we know the gospels by and where and to whom the gospels were written has to be ascertained by this post 70 dating also.
13 Good Historical Reasons For The Early Dating of The Gospels | Is Jesus Alive?
Arguments for a pre-70 CE Dating of Matthew's Gospel — Danny Zacharias
 
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