The resurection of the "body" ?

michel · Mar 19, 2007

How literally is that to be interpreted ? i.e, will we have flesh and blood in Heaven?

From the Apostle's creed:- I believe in...... The resurrection of the body, and..etc...

from:-http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12792a.htm

"No doctrine of the Christian Faith", says St. Augustine, "is so vehemently and so obstinately opposed as the doctrine of the resurrection of the flesh" (In Ps. Ixxxviii, sermo ii, n. 5). This opposition had begun long before the days of St. Augustine: "And certain philosophers of the Epicureans and of the Stoics ", the inspired writer tells us (Acts 17:18, 32), "disputed with him [Paul] ...and when they had heard of the resurrection of the dead, some indeed mocked, but others said: We will hear thee again concerning this matter." Among the opponents of the Resurrection we naturally find first those who denied the immortality of the soul; secondly, all those who, like Plato, regarded the body as the prison of the soul and death as an escape from the bondage of matter; thirdly the sects of the Gnostics and Manichaeans who looked upon all matter as evil; fourthly, the followers of these latter sects the Priscillianists, the Cathari, and the Albigenses; fifthly, the Rationalists, Materialists, and Pantheists of later times. Against all these we shall first establish the dogma of the resurrection, and secondly consider the characteristics of the risen body. <---------------------------------------------------->

(3) Tradition
It is not surprising that the Tradition of the early Church agrees with the clear teaching of both the Old and New Testaments. We have already referred to a number of creeds and professions of faith which may be considered as part of the Church's official expression of her faith. Here we have only to point out a number of patristic passages, in which the Fathers teach the doctrine of the general resurrection in more or less explicit terms. St. Clement of Rome, I Cor., xxv; St. Justin Martyr, "De resurrect.", vii sqq.; Idem, "Dial. c. Tryph.", Ixxx; Athenagoras, "De resur. carn.", iii; Tatian, "Adv. Graec.", vi; St. Irenaeus, "Contra haer.", I, x; V, vi, 2; Tertullian, "Contra Marcion.", V, ix; Idem, "De praescript.", xiii; Idem, "De resurrect. carn.", I, xii, xv, Ixiii; Minucius Felix, "Octav.", xxxiv; Origen, tom. XVII, in Matt., xxix; Idem, "De princip.", praef., v; Idem, "In Lev.", v, 10; Hippolytus, "Adv. Graec." in P. G., X, 799; St. Cyril of Jerusalem, "Cat.", XVIII, xv; St. Ephraem, "De resurrect. mort."; St. Basil, "Ep. cclxxi", 3; St. Epiphanius, "In ancor.", lxxxiii sq., xcix; St. Ambrose, "De excessu frat. sui Satyri", II, lxvii, cii; Idem, "In Ps. cxviii", serm. x, n. 18; Ps. Ambr., "De Trinit.", xxiii, in P. L. XVII, 534; St. Jerome, "Ep. ad Paul" in LIII, 8; Rufinus, "In symbol.", xliv sq.; St. Chrysostom (Ps. Chrysostom), "Fragm. in libr. Job" in P. G., LXIV, 619; St. Peter Chrysologus, serm. 103, 118; "Apost. Constit.", VII, xli; St. Augustine "Enchirid.", 84; Idem, "De civit. Dei", XX, xx; Theodoret, "De provident.", or. ix; "Hist. eccl.", I, iii.
The general resurrection can hardly be proved from reason, though we may show its congruity.

As the soul has a natural propensity to the body, its perpetual separation from the body would seem unnatural.
As the body is the partner of the soul's crimes, and the companion of her virtues, the justice of God seems to demand that the body be the sharer in the soul's punishment and reward.
As the soul separated from the body is naturally imperfect, the consummation of its happiness, replete with every good, seems to demand the resurrection of the body.

Katzpur · Mar 19, 2007

michel said:
How literally is that to be interpreted ? i.e, will we have flesh and blood in Heaven?

When the risen Christ appeared to His Apostles shortly after His resurrection, He specifically pointed out to them that He had a body of "flesh and bones." He did not, however, mention blood. Blood is, of course, required to nourish and sustain a mortal body. Christ's resurrected body was immortal. While He had the appearance of a man, and was corporeal in nature, it was no longer necessary for blood to course through His veins. As a immortal being, not only could He not die a second time, He was no longer subject to disease or injury. That's what I believe will happen to each of us when we are resurrected.

Furthermore, the word "resurrection" does not even make sense unless it pertains to the physical body. It refers to the renewal of a life which has been extinguished. If the spirit leaves the body at death, but does not cease to exist in a cognizant state, what is there to return to life except the body. The spirit never ceases to live.

As the soul has a natural propensity to the body, its perpetual separation from the body would seem unnatural.

As the body is the partner of the soul's crimes, and the companion of her virtues, the justice of God seems to demand that the body be the sharer in the soul's punishment and reward.

As the soul separated from the body is naturally imperfect, the consummation of its happiness, replete with every good, seems to demand the resurrection of the body.

I'm not sure what I think about the second of these three statements. The first and the third, however, are in perfect agreement with LDS doctrine.

By the way, michel, most of your links did not appear to be working.

Scuba Pete · Mar 19, 2007

Michel, our bodies are sown "corruptible" and are raised "incorrumptible". What doe this mean? I have no idea, except I don't think we will be flesh and blood but SPIRITUAL in nature.

I believe that the scriptures are trying to convey something for which we have NO WORDS. Think about it, it's like God is trying to tell us about the color blue, but we are color blind and have no words to convey "blue" yet. So he uses "other" words to try and convey the specialness of it all, but we still have a hard time comprehending just what he is talking about. All I know is that I want to BE THERE when we are raised!

Katzpur · Mar 19, 2007

Scuba Pete said:
Michel, our bodies are sown "corruptible" and are raised "incorrumptible". What doe this mean? I have no idea, except I don't think we will be flesh and blood but SPIRITUAL in nature.

To "corrupt" means to destroy or spoil, to change from a sound condition to an unsound one. A body that is "corruptible" is one that is subject to disease and decay, one that can be destroyed. An incorruptible body would be one that cannot be destroyed or made imperfect. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a "spiritual nature." To insist that it does is simply to change the meaning of the word.

I believe that the scriptures are trying to convey something for which we have NO WORDS. Think about it, it's like God is trying to tell us about the color blue, but we are color blind and have no words to convey "blue" yet. So he uses "other" words to try and convey the specialness of it all, but we still have a hard time comprehending just what he is talking about. All I know is that I want to BE THERE when we are raised!

The scriptures are trying to tell us that our bodies will be made perfect and immortal. They aren't trying to describe some concept for which there are no words. As long as you insist that the resurrection is a concept beyond our ability to understand, it will be just that. Jesus had a resurrected body of flesh and bones when He ascended into Heaven and the scriptures tell us He will return to the Earth as He left it. Furthermore, in Matthew 27:52-53, we read: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. The "resurrection of the just" began when these souls were raised from the dead -- in bodily form. It just blows my mind how this could leave any doubt in anyone's mind as to what it means to be resurrected.

Scuba Pete · Mar 19, 2007

Katzpur said:
It just blows my mind how this could leave any doubt in anyone's mind as to what it means to be resurrected.

Oh, I don't know Kat. Let's take a CLOSER look at this scripture, shall we?

I Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." NIV

I have no idea how you can contend that our bodies WILL be flesh and blood if they can't inherit the kingdom of God? Also what about this "changed" part?

Now let's look at Jesus' body:

John 20:26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." NIV

Flesh and blood that passes through a LOCKED door? Not even a vampire could do that. An open wound that does not issue forth with blood? Somehow, I don't think Jesus' body is anything like ours at this point in time. Perhaps he has been raised incorruptible, and we simply don't have any words for what kind of body that is.

But hey, your mileage may vary. Just don't think that my beliefs are THAT outrageous in light of these scriptures.

As an aside, I Cor 15:51 has been cited as the first Biblical nursery.

Katzpur · Mar 19, 2007

Scuba Pete said:
Oh, I don't know Kat. Let's take a CLOSER look at this scripture, shall we?

Sure, let's.

I Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

If you will begin by reading my first post, I specifically said that Jesus did not say that He had a body of "flesh and blood." A body of flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God because a body of flesh and blood is corruptible. But an incorruptible, imperishable, immortal body can and will be able to inherit the kingdom of God.

I have no idea how you can contend that our bodies WILL be flesh and blood if they can't inherit the kingdom of God?

Well, I didn't contend that, so let's start by clearing that point up.

Also what about this "changed" part?

They will be changed from corruptible to incorruptable, from perishable to imperishable, from mortal to immortal. It sounds to me as if you're saying that they will be changed from material to immaterial, from having a form to being formless, but none of the words actually used in the scriptures are saying that.

Now let's look at Jesus' body:

John 20:26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." NIV

And what do you think Thomas felt when he reached out to touch Jesus and was convinced that His body actually had been given new life? Air? No! He clearly felt the Savior's wounds.

Flesh and blood that passes through a LOCKED door?

Uh... that would be flesh and bones, not flesh and blood. Or don't you believe that Jesus was being honest when He said, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have"?

Not even a vampire could do that.

Are you seriously suggesting that we should judge Jesus' abilities by what a vampire could supposedly do or not do? Surely you must believe that a God who is omnipotent and omnipresent would have abilities significantly greater than those of a vampire!

Somehow, I don't think Jesus' body is anything like ours at this point in time.

I think it looks much the same as ours, in that we would recognize Him as having the same human form with which He ascended into Heaven. Beyond the physical shape of His body, I would agree with you that His body has little in common with ours. A body that can live for thousands and thousands of years and never age or change is certainly nothing like the bodies we have.

Perhaps he has been raised incorruptible, and we simply don't have any words for what kind of body that is.

Or perhaps we do. Incorruptible = eternally perfect = imperishable = immortal.

But hey, your mileage may vary. Just don't think that my beliefs are THAT outrageous in light of these scriptures.

Well, I'm sure you think mine are every bit as outrageous as I think yours are. I just wish we'd get a few comments from some other people as we're pretty darned soon going to get bored telling each other that we're wrong.

silvermoon383 · Mar 19, 2007

Don't forget about 1 John 3:2- Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Couple that with Moroni 7:48 and you get a cemented doctrine- that all who are resurrected will be like Christ (having a body of flesh and bone): Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

Scuba Pete · Mar 20, 2007

Hey Kat,

I am not ascribing ANY characteristics to this body. I believe it to be fully indescribable using our language which was the thrust of my posts. I think we will just have to settle for imperishable for now. But it is distinctly different from the one I have now: of this I am sure.

michel · Mar 20, 2007

Thanks for your input guys. I have (what may be a simple minded, and childlike) way of looking at this.

The idea of having a "physical " body (as we have on Earth) in Heaven makes no sense to me. The reason is that Heaven (to me) is the same as the garden of Eden.

There, I believe, all creatures lived in peace together - no malice, no ill deeds etc..

How, if we have bodies such as the ones we have now, would we be able to sustain them ? - the immediate thought being that we would have to kill for food - and yet, that seems a complete antithesis of the idea of Heaven.

Does that make sense?

jacquie4000 · Mar 20, 2007

Thanks for your input guys. I have (what may be a simple minded, and childlike) way of looking at this.

The idea of having a "physical " body (as we have on Earth) in Heaven makes no sense to me. The reason is that Heaven (to me) is the same as the garden of Eden.

There, I believe, all creatures lived in peace together - no malice, no ill deeds etc..

How, if we have bodies such as the ones we have now, would we be able to sustain them ? - the immediate thought being that we would have to kill for food - and yet, that seems a complete antithesis of the idea of Heaven.

Does that make sense?

Michel...I think your ideas make sense I do not believe we will have a physical body per say. I don't think we will require food and such as we do now. I believe we will be free from all the needs and wants of this world.

Quiddity · Mar 20, 2007

PeaceSeeker said:
Heaven, God, souls or spirits exist in the spiritual...this is the supernatural existence...the supernatural can not exist on Earth, it would defy God's own perfect laws of nature.

Jesus went to Heaven spiritually and is now a part of God...his body did not arise.

Do you believe Christ was supernatural?

Katzpur · Mar 20, 2007

michel said:
Thanks for your input guys. I have (what may be a simple minded, and childlike) way of looking at this.

No, you're not simple-minded. You just see things differently.

The idea of having a "physical " body (as we have on Earth) in Heaven makes no sense to me. The reason is that Heaven (to me) is the same as the garden of Eden.

So, don't think you could enjoy a place like a Garden of Eden if you had a body? Don't you believe Adam and Eve had physical bodies? Would it make sense to you to be able to hold your wife in your arms and kiss her, or is that something you believe you will have no interest in doing?

There, I believe, all creatures lived in peace together - no malice, no ill deeds etc..

I couldn't agree more. Do you believe all creatures will live together in peace in Heaven, Michel? Could you explain to me, please, how this is going to be the case if all creatures are nothing more than spirits? What bearing does the existence of a body have on the potential for peace between all of God's creations?

How, if we have bodies such as the ones we have now, would we be able to sustain them ? - the immediate thought being that we would have to kill for food - and yet, that seems a complete antithesis of the idea of Heaven.

Does that make sense?

No, it doesn't. If your body is immortal, it has no need of sustenance. You could have the appearance of a human being without having the need to do any of the things humans need to do to remain healthy and alive. You are apparently misunderstanding what it means to be immortal. It's the opposite or mortal. Whereas a mortal being can be injured, get sick or die, there is absolutely nothing that can do any harm or damage to an immortal body.

Katzpur · Mar 20, 2007

jacquie4000 said:
I do not believe we will have a physical body per say. I don't think we will require food and such as we do now. I believe we will be free from all the needs and wants of this world.

Nobody gets it! :shrug:

Nobody has understood a word of what I've said. Who said anything about us needing food, rest or exercise? The whole point of having an immortal body is that it doesn't require any of these things. I don't understand why nobody understands.

PeaceSeeker · Mar 20, 2007

Victor said:
Do you believe Christ was supernatural?

If he was, then he violated God's infallible laws of nature...an impossibility.

Jesus was man...and is NOW a part of God...as a man, upon his baptism (the sky didn't open up...and if God's words were heard physically, it was by schizophrenics)
God's spirit interacted with Jesus' spirit and Jesus was God's messenger.

PeaceSeeker · Mar 20, 2007

Katzpur said:
I couldn't agree more. Do you believe all creatures will live together in peace in Heaven, Michel? Could you explain to me, please, how this is going to be the case if all creatures are nothing more than spirits? What bearing does the existence of a body have on the potential for peace between all of God's creations?
....You are apparently misunderstanding what it means to be immortal. It's the opposite or mortal. Whereas a mortal being can be injured, get sick or die, there is absolutely nothing that can do any harm or damage to an immortal body.

The body is always mortal...the spirit is immortal. IMHO, what man has considered God is spiritual energy. This energy also exists in our brain within the subconscious, a sub-atomic substance which one can call spirit. Upon physical death this energy is united with the source, the spiritual energy that is a progressive spiritual intellect, God.

love · Mar 20, 2007

michel said:
How literally is that to be interpreted ? i.e, will we have flesh and blood in Heaven?

From the Apostle's creed:- I believe in...... The resurrection of the body, and..etc...

from:-http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12792a.htm

"No doctrine of the Christian Faith", says St. Augustine, "is so vehemently and so obstinately opposed as the doctrine of the resurrection of the flesh" (In Ps. Ixxxviii, sermo ii, n. 5). This opposition had begun long before the days of St. Augustine: "And certain philosophers of the Epicureans and of the Stoics ", the inspired writer tells us (Acts 17:18, 32), "disputed with him [Paul] ...and when they had heard of the resurrection of the dead, some indeed mocked, but others said: We will hear thee again concerning this matter." Among the opponents of the Resurrection we naturally find first those who denied the immortality of the soul; secondly, all those who, like Plato, regarded the body as the prison of the soul and death as an escape from the bondage of matter; thirdly the sects of the Gnostics and Manichaeans who looked upon all matter as evil; fourthly, the followers of these latter sects the Priscillianists, the Cathari, and the Albigenses; fifthly, the Rationalists, Materialists, and Pantheists of later times. Against all these we shall first establish the dogma of the resurrection, and secondly consider the characteristics of the risen body. <---------------------------------------------------->

(3) Tradition
It is not surprising that the Tradition of the early Church agrees with the clear teaching of both the Old and New Testaments. We have already referred to a number of creeds and professions of faith which may be considered as part of the Church's official expression of her faith. Here we have only to point out a number of patristic passages, in which the Fathers teach the doctrine of the general resurrection in more or less explicit terms. St. Clement of Rome, I Cor., xxv; St. Justin Martyr, "De resurrect.", vii sqq.; Idem, "Dial. c. Tryph.", Ixxx; Athenagoras, "De resur. carn.", iii; Tatian, "Adv. Graec.", vi; St. Irenaeus, "Contra haer.", I, x; V, vi, 2; Tertullian, "Contra Marcion.", V, ix; Idem, "De praescript.", xiii; Idem, "De resurrect. carn.", I, xii, xv, Ixiii; Minucius Felix, "Octav.", xxxiv; Origen, tom. XVII, in Matt., xxix; Idem, "De princip.", praef., v; Idem, "In Lev.", v, 10; Hippolytus, "Adv. Graec." in P. G., X, 799; St. Cyril of Jerusalem, "Cat.", XVIII, xv; St. Ephraem, "De resurrect. mort."; St. Basil, "Ep. cclxxi", 3; St. Epiphanius, "In ancor.", lxxxiii sq., xcix; St. Ambrose, "De excessu frat. sui Satyri", II, lxvii, cii; Idem, "In Ps. cxviii", serm. x, n. 18; Ps. Ambr., "De Trinit.", xxiii, in P. L. XVII, 534; St. Jerome, "Ep. ad Paul" in LIII, 8; Rufinus, "In symbol.", xliv sq.; St. Chrysostom (Ps. Chrysostom), "Fragm. in libr. Job" in P. G., LXIV, 619; St. Peter Chrysologus, serm. 103, 118; "Apost. Constit.", VII, xli; St. Augustine "Enchirid.", 84; Idem, "De civit. Dei", XX, xx; Theodoret, "De provident.", or. ix; "Hist. eccl.", I, iii.
The general resurrection can hardly be proved from reason, though we may show its congruity.

As the soul has a natural propensity to the body, its perpetual separation from the body would seem unnatural.

As the body is the partner of the soul's crimes, and the companion of her virtues, the justice of God seems to demand that the body be the sharer in the soul's punishment and reward.

As the soul separated from the body is naturally imperfect, the consummation of its happiness, replete with every good, seems to demand the resurrection of the body.

I feel pretty comfortable in my belief it will not be the same body I dwell in now.
Whether or not it will have blood I don't know and don't really care. I know that Jesus Christ give His blood for us. Blood gives life in this realm but doesn't the Holy Spirit give life that is eternal?

Scuba Pete · Mar 20, 2007

Katzpur said:
I don't understand why nobody understands.

Dear Kat,

we understand you just fine: but we disagree to some extent (some more than others).

For me this falls under my "Pantheos" theory. No matter what I believe, it's gonna pan out just the way God wants it to! I certainly don't believe that my status as a Christian is in jeopardy over this and you can be sure that I still love you no matter what you believe here.

Katzpur · Mar 20, 2007

love said:
I feel pretty comfortable in my belief it will not be the same body I dwell in now.
Whether or not it will have blood I don't know and don't really care. I know that Jesus Christ give His blood for us. Blood gives life in this realm but doesn't the Holy Spirit give life that is eternal?

Did someone suggest that we will either need blood or have blood?

Katzpur · Mar 20, 2007

Scuba Pete said:
We understand you just fine.

Judging from the responses to my posts, that doesn't appear to be the case. I don't mind the fact that people don't agree with me. I'm just frustrated by the fact that I can't seem to get my point across. I'm evidently not doing a very good job of explaining what I believe an immortal body to be. Everybody keeps saying, "No, we won't have a body, because a body would require nourishment, etc." Or "No, we won't have flesh and blood," as if I had implied that we would.

No matter what I believe, it's gonna pan out just the way God wants it to!

That's one thing we can agree on.

I certainly don't believe that my status as a Christian is in jeopardy over this and you can be sure that I still love you no matter what you believe here.

Likewise. :yes:

Arben · Mar 21, 2007

If Christ did not arise from the dead, then no one has any hope. He died for our sins, was buried and then He resurrected. It is because of this I am looking forward to that blessed hope - when my sweet Lord will come again, to take me, and all those who call Him Savior and Lord, home.

The resurection of the "body" ?

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