Ask about Jehovah's Witnesses

SoulTYPE01 said:

One question, in respones to the thread title, WOJ, is why it seems two JW dudes have so much disagreement. Unless t3gah is not a JW as he claims to be..

DISCLAIMER: I did not mean that as an attack on tegah

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6661

I do not understand why a JW would think that Christmas is the work of the Satan.

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Hi SoulType01,

t3gah does not accurately reflect the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses - therefore, do not take his comments as factual in what JW's believe. If you examine some of his posts, they actually undermine and contradict JW bible truth. Just because somebody says he is somebody, it does neccasarily mean it is so...

A true JW would instantly recognize that what t3gah is posting on this board is not quite right, but since most on this board are unaware/or do no not know better, people take what he says as truth, when in actual fact, it is far from it.

So if t3gah is not a JW, who is he and what is he up to? Your guess is as good as mine...

If you have a genuine question about JW, direct it somebody who is a real JW and is not going to give you a version of half-truths.

WitnessofJah said:

Hi SoulType01,


If you have a genuine question about JW, direct it somebody who is a real JW and is not going to give you a version of half-truths.

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Thankyou WoJ, but through own experience and advice I would watch that last comment for name calling, even if it were true That was good advice on your behalf, I give you some of my own

Actually, the antagonism against the Jews was probably much greater than that against Blacks--referring to Jews, none other than J.F. Rutherford stated "Be it known once and for all that those profiteering, conscienceless, selfish men who call themselves Jews, and who control the greater portion of the finances of the world and the business of the world, will never be the rulers in this new earth. God would not risk such selfish men with such an important position" (1927:343). ...

The Watchtower taught that the curse of Ham applied to the black "race" as late as 1929! ...

- see Jehovah's Witnesses, Blacks and Discrimination

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Could youtell me precisely when and how these views were repudiated?

Deut. 32.8 said:

Could youtell me precisely when and how these views were repudiated?

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Repudiated? JW's have never been racist in their entire history! The wonderful world of the internet! This is a new angle I have never I have never heard of. As far as the quote, can you please post the full article so that we can see the correct context? It is very easy to pull sentences out of the middle of a page, misquote and spin the sentence, and then say that they are saying something in which they are in fact not. Can you you please:

1) Post the name of the publication
2) Post the full article with page numbers

Then I will be able to help you. It is impossible for me to answer otherwise on what the quote is saying other than the fact that we have never been racist in our entire history - and that includes before that book was even written.

As far as your site, I would not hail it as highly credible. It is very biased but I'm glad it recognizes that we are cosmopolitan and welcome all (including blacks and the rest of humanity):

There is no way to know precisely the number of Negro Witnesses in the United States as the Society doesn't reveal or encourage any knowledge about the extent of its Negro membership. Estimates of this membership in the early 1960s ran from 20% to 30% of the total Witnesses in the U.S.... Such... estimates... indicate a considerably higher proportion of Negro Witnesses than there are blacks in the general American population (10.6% according to the 1960 U.S. Census and estimated 12% for 1970). In the Witnesses' circuit assemblies in North and West Philadelphia during the research period, each of which included more than 2,200 persons, 99% of the audience were Negroes, figures well above the 70% Negro population in North Philadelphia and 60% in West Philadelphia (1974:705).

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Unfortunately, the website you posted does not reflect true reality, lacks references in full (if any), adds on doctrines that we have never teached, and then states them as fact! Do you believe them instantanously or are you even going to give us a chance to tell the full story? People are so quick to post up "revelations" found on the internet!

In fact, JW are probably the most cosmopolitan religion on earth - and everybody is equal no matter who they are. Some have more priviledges than others, but this is not even close to being dependant on race.

Revelation 15:4: "Who will not really fear you, Jehovah, and glorify your name, because you alone are loyal? For all the nations will come and worship before you, because your righteous decrees have been made manifest."

WitnessofJah said:

1) Post the name of the publication
2) Post the full article with page numbers

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I'm sorry. I did, in fact, reference the source which, in turn, appears to do a very good job at referencing its sources. Are you suggesting that (a) Rutherford never made the comments attributed to him, and that (b) the JWs never employed the "mark of Ham" in the manner documented?

Deut. 32.8 said:

I'm sorry. I did, in fact, reference the source which, in turn, appears to do a very good job at referencing its sources.

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"Appears to to do a very good job at referencing" is not a good reason to believe them. That's exactly what they want you to think.

Are you suggesting that (a) Rutherford never made the comments attributed to him, and that (b) the JWs never employed the "mark of Ham" in the manner documented?

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a) The context has not been specified. Give me the full details and I'll do a search on it. One sentence abstracts do not depict truth.

b) 1) I have never heard of the mark of Ham in all my years as a JW. 2) And no, the JW's never employed "mark of Ham" in the manner documented - because we have never been racist.

Don't take what you read on the internet as truth. Suggesting that probably the most cosmopolitan on face of earth is/was racist is one of the most ludicrous things I have ever heard. We are based 235 in different lands where some of the cultures and races are extremely diverse but share one things in common - love for God, his son Jesus, and examining the truth in the Bible. Do you want to undermine these facts? You can accept the things you read on the internet - but that does not have any bearings on the real truth of the matter.

Apparently, the reference to Jews comes from the Society's Golden Age magazine, 23 Feb 1927.

"Appears to to do a very good job at referencing" is not a good reason to believe them. That's exactly what they want you to think.

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It you think the article is wrong, if you think they did not correctly used the data referneced, you must go to the "secondary" references that Deut provide and show that they were misused. Absent that step, you have very little grounds to challange in any way Duet's reference.

These are the refernces you must discredit before you can critise this internet published work.

References

Bergman, Jerry. Jehovah Witnesses and Kindred Groups. New York: Garland, 1984.

__________. "Jehovah's Witnesses II." Controversial and Polemical Pamphlets, New York: Garland, 1990.

Bolling, J.L. "The Story of Uncle Tom's Cabin." Golden Age, Nov., 30, 1927:140-143.

Carr, Firpo W. A History of Jehovah Witnesses from a Black American Perspective. Aurora, MS: Stoops Publishing Co., 1993.

Cohn, Werner. "Jehovah's Witnesses and Racial Prejudice." The Crisis, January 1956:5-9.

Cole, Marley. "Jehovah's Witnesses Religion of Racial Integration." The Crisis, April 1953:205-211, 253-255.

___________. "Training Africans for a Better Life" as told by George Brumley, Color, April 1953a:18-21.

Cooper, Lee R. Publish or Perish: Negro Jehovah's Witness "Adoption in the Ghetto" In Irving I. Zaretsky and Mark P. Leone Religious Movements in Contemporary America, Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1974.

Harrison, Barbara Grizzuti. Visions of Glory. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1978.

Harrison, William. "The Menace of a World Race War." The Golden Age, July 28, 1926:680-682.

Jackson, LaToya. Growing up in the Jackson Family. NY: Dutton, 1991.

Jones, Michael. "Blacks and the Watchtower." Free Minds Journal, July/August, 12(4):9, 1993.

Kosmin, Barry and Seymour Lachman. One Nation Under God. NY: Harmony Books, 1993.

Penton, James. "Apocalypse Delayed." The story of Jehovah's Witnesses, Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1985.

Rutherford, J.F. "A Righteous Government." The Golden Age, Feb. 23, 1927:341-345.

Watters, Randy. "Blacks and The Watchtower." Bethel Ministries, July/August, 7(4):1-2, 12, 1988.

__________. "Was There a Secret Black Man on the Governing Body? A Review of 'A History of Jehovah's Witnesses; From a Black American's Perspective'" Free Minds, March/April, 12(2):11, 1993.

Watchtower Society. Letter from EG; EI to G.M. Crowder, January 25, 1973.

Whalen, William J. Armageddon Around The Corner. New York: John Day Co., 1962.

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But I tell you, it sounds like you are avoiding coming to grips with adverse comment.

Bob

Deut. 32.8 said:

Apparently, the reference to Jews comes from the Society's Golden Age magazine, 23 Feb 1927.

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I don't have the individual issue going that far back in my library, so it is impossible for me to reference it. However, what I can do is give you some background info on Judge Rutherford (the man you are accusing) and what he did which was in favor of the Jews. Case in point:

Brother Rutherford, in 1925, wrote the book Comfort for the Jews. Down till 1932, they understood these to apply specifically to the natural Jews. Thus, they believed that God would show Israel favor again, gradually restoring the Jews to Palestine, opening their eyes to the truth regarding Jesus as Ransomer and Messianic King, and using them as an agency for extending blessings to all nations.

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Ref: Jehovah Chapter 10 Page 141

This is the same Judge Rutherford that you are accusing of being anti-Jew. Another:

"In Germany the common people are peace-loving," Rutherford proclaimed. "The Devil has put his representative Hitler in control, a man who is of unsound mind, cruel, malicious and ruthless . . . He cruelly persecutes the Jews because they were once Jehovah’s covenant people and bore the name of Jehovah, and because Christ Jesus was a Jew."

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Rutherford talking about the wicked deed of the Nazi's.

Ref: Awake! 1995 8/22 Page 6-12

Max Freschel was a Jew who later took the name Maxwell Friend. He writes: ‘When J. F. Rutherford, who was to be the second president of the Watch Tower Society, paid us a visit, he asked me whether I would like to be sent to Austria-Hungary in order to spread the good news of the Messianic Kingdom among the many Jews living there. Gladly I accepted the invitation and went to Prague in the beginning of 1914. Afterward I went to Vienna. There were only four subscribers to The Watchtower in Vienna. I visited them repeatedly to encourage their interest in God’s Word.’

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Even Jews wanted to be of help to Rutherford, but your website says otherwise - which one do you believe?

Ref: Watchtower 1986 6/15 Page 26-28.


Clearly then, it is completely out of character for Judge Rutherford to be anti-Jew, bearing in mind he helped Jews, printed books which praised Jews, and worked with them. This brings me to my next question:

IS THIS THE SAME RUTHERFORD YOUR WEBSITE IS DEPICTING?

Your website does not reflect reality and conveniently ignores the good works he did for Jews - why? Hmmmmmmmmm. It's either a complete mistake OR they are deliberately creating a slant for their own agenda. You decide.

pah said:

It you think the article is wrong, if you think they did not correctly used the data referneced, you must go to the "secondary" references that Deut provide and show that they were misused.

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I just have - give me a chance to do so please. I am not chained to my computer and logged into this site 24/7.

These are the refernces you must discredit before you can critise this internet published work.

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Deut did not ask me about those - he brought up a single point about Jews - and I answered him. I'm not going to discredit references that has not been asked of me, am I? First mistake of that website when I read it: It said we are 12,000,000 - when in actual we are just over 6,000,000. Is this the kind of website you want to reference from?

But I tell you, it sounds like you are avoiding coming to grips with adverse comment.

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Bob

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If you reject what I say, you are not rejecting me personally - remember that.

WitnessofJah said:

Deut did not ask me about those - he brought up a single point about Jews ...

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No, I brought up the issue of antisemitism and racism.

WitnessofJah said:

... and I answered him.

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No, your response was: "I don't have the individual issue going that far back in my library, so it is impossible for me to reference it." That is not an answer, but a reason for not having one at this time. The reason is perfectly legitimate, and Iam more than willing to wait ...

Deut. 32.8 said:

No, I brought up the issue of antisemitism and racism.

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Your allegations are unfounded and absurd. I'm not even going to pursue this any longer this argument is so nonsensical. Some black/former Jew have even died loyal in their faith being a Jehovah's Witness - and you hail that we are a racist organization?! The greatest human who ever walked this earth, Jesus Christ, was a Jew. The allegations of racism really is a last resort when it comes to critics. There are MILLIONS of multicultural JW's who are proud of who they are but at the same time, we are "racist"?!

No, your response was: "I don't have the individual issue going that far back in my library, so it is impossible for me to reference it." That is not an answer, but a reason for not having one at this time. The reason is perfectly legitimate, and Iam more than willing to wait ...

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I did give you an answer, but if you don't want to accept it, that is no fault of my own. I noticed that you did'nt even acknowledge my post on the works of Rutherford, which does not suprise me. Your question is not genuine but an attempt to look for flaws from the very beginning. I am almost 100% sure that you ran a search on us on Google to try and dig up "negatives" and found that obscure website and dumped it in here claiming truth.

If you want to learn about JW, that's fine, I will be happy to answer your questions. However, if you come here to post unfounded and outrageous claims about us in the effort to undermine everything about us, don't expect me answer. One thing is constructive criticism, another is downright slander which denies REAL FACTS!

WitnessofJah

WoJ dude, do you encourage the ethics of doorknocking?

SoulTYPE01 said:

WoJ dude, do you encourage the ethics of doorknocking?

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Yes - I preach on the doors and inform people about the contents of the Bible. Preaching is not something we have decided to do for the sake of it - but something that Jesus commanded us to do and every Christian (JW or not) should follow:

Jesus Christ commanding us in Matthew 24:14: " And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."

ACTS 20:20: "While I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house."

Acts of the disciples:

ACTS 5-42: "And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus."

People claim that because this was written 2000 years ago, it no longer applies. However, if these verses no longer apply, then the WHOLE BIBLE no longer applies. You can't exclude a few verses and apply the rest. Our aim for preaching is to spread the good news and hope for the future in our age of bad news and tragedy and to give people light at the end of the tunnel. We get paid nothing and sacrifice our free time (whatever the weather) for the love of our neighbor and for the love of God.

WitnessofJah said:

Your allegations are unfounded and absurd. I'm not even going to pursue this any longer this argument is so nonsensical.

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I made no allegations. I asked questions motivated by what appears to be a well researched article. Running from the questions seems an unfortunate choice.

Does this doorknocking involve merey preaching, or attempt to convert? I do not mean this in a bad way, just asking..then I will let you continue debating your thing with Deut..

Deut. 32.8 said:

I made no allegations. I asked questions motivated by what appears to be a well researched article.

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Your article has no bearings on reality. Somebody who instantaneously believes the first thing they read has no basis to make an argument in the face of facts. You website conveniently forgets to mention all the things we do for the multicultural community including aid, humanitarian provisions in disasters, missionary work to the most distant lands, and welcoming ALL NATIONALITIES to share in Bible Truth. In fact, probably 2/3 of our membership in non-white. What Racism?

Running from the questions seems an unfortunate choice.

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a) You have not commented on my post on Rutherford which completely uproots your article.

b) Because I cannot get hold of an issue from 80 years ago, I am "running from the question". Since you posted the quote in the first place, the responsibility lies with you to account for and prove yourself right via it. I want to see you post the entire page of the article, and then we can continue the discussion.

c) Are you trying to suggest that your article on a sub-page has more authority than WTBS chronological history in all aspects, many external sources, eye-witnesses in and outside the JW organization, and the fact that I have never heard your allegations to begin with?

WitnessofJah said:

Your article has no bearings on reality.

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Then it should be easy to refute.

WitnessofJah said:

Somebody who instantaneously believes the first thing they read has no basis to make an argument in the face of facts.

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I made no argument. I asked you to address the citations - something which you continue to avoid.

WitnessofJah said:

You website conveniently forgets to mention all the things we do ...

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It is not my website. I have no doubt that you, along with the overwhelming majority of Christian organizations, do good things.

WitnessofJah said:

In fact, probably 2/3 of our membership in non-white. What Racism?

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Then one migh expect the composition of the religious and administrative leadership to reflect this. Does it?

WitnessofJah said:

Since you posted the quote in the first place, the responsibility lies with you to account for and prove yourself right via it.

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I have no interest in proving myself right. You solicited questions. I asked some.

WitnessofJah said:

Are you trying to suggest that your article on a sub-page has more authority than ...

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The Witness doth protest too much! I am trying to suggest nothing. Again, you solicited questions and I asked some.

WitnessofJah said:

Are you refering to what is said in Revelation 20:4-6?

Because if you are the verses say (5,6): "(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)This is the first resurrection. Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.

These scriptures refer to those who will reign with Christ, true believers, and will apparently precede the second, that of non-believers and disbelievers, in point of time.

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So, as an atheist, I will have a thousand years of peace before God starts torturing me?

SoulTYPE01 said:

Does this doorknocking involve merey preaching, or attempt to convert? I do not mean this in a bad way, just asking..then I will let you continue debating your thing with Deut..

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Why we preach:

- Love for god
- Love for Jesus and his commandments to preach
- Love for our neighbor

Our objective to preaching:

- To inform the householder about the good news of the kingdom that God promises that the righteous will inherit
- Offer if they want to learn more about the Bible and progress to a Bible study

However, what you have to keep in mind is that we are not just trying to increase the head-count within our organization for the sake of it, but we only want to reach people who are genuinely interested. If you are not interested, we respect that, and accept your decision. We want to spread the truth to the Bible to whoever is willing to listen - whether that is only just 1 person or 1,000,000.