The Generation of the Righteous

Redemptionsong · Jul 11, 2022

Left Coast said:
The passage says nothing about "accepting a sacrifice for sin made on their behalf." Again, this is why it's important to set aside your preconceptions when you read a passage. You're inserting things that aren't there.

Jews don't agree with you.

It's not a question of preconceptions. It's about following the coherent message presented in scripture.

I'm sorry to say it, but Torah Jews do not know the baptism in Holy Spirit!

You say that there is no mention of a sacrifice for sin, but under the law there were sin offerings. Clearly, God did not find these offerings acceptable because had they been acceptable there would have been no need for God to say 'and l will [future] remember their sin no more'!

So, why hasn't God already forgiven their sin? Why has God not accepted the sin offerings of lsrael under the law? Why is lsrael still far from God in knowledge?

Left Coast · Jul 11, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
It's not a question of preconceptions. It's about following the coherent message presented in scripture.

That assumes there is a coherent message. Which is a preconception.

I'm sorry to say it, but Torah Jews do not know the baptism in Holy Spirit!

If you wanted to use this thread to proselytize to Jews, you should have just been up front about that at the outset.

You say that there is no mention of a sacrifice for sin, but under the law there were sin offerings. Clearly, God did not find these offerings acceptable because had they been acceptable there would have been no need for God to say 'and l will [future] remember their sin no more'!

The New Testament also discusses forgiveness of sin in the future tense.

Redemptionsong · Jul 11, 2022

Left Coast said:
If you wanted to use this thread to proselytize to Jews, you should have just been up front about that at the outset.

You've made similar accusations about proselytizing before. Am l talking to a Jew? I don't think so. Is my comment about Torah Jews not knowing the baptism in the Holy Spirit fair? I believe Torah Jews will accept the comment as accurate.

Left Coast · Jul 11, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
You've made similar accusations about proselytizing before.

It's almost like you keep doing the same thing.

Am l talking to a Jew? I don't think so.

You don't have to be talking to a Jew for a non-Jew to recognize that you're proselytizing to them in this thread.

Is my comment about Torah Jews not knowing the baptism in the Holy Spirit fair? I believe Torah Jews will accept the comment as accurate.

Will they also accept that they are "far from God in knowledge," and that they need to "place faith in Jesus as Messiah?"

Enough.

Redemptionsong · Jul 11, 2022

Left Coast said:
It's almost like you keep doing the same thing.

You don't have to be talking to a Jew for a non-Jew to recognize that you're proselytizing to them in this thread.

Will they also accept that they are "far from God in knowledge," and that they need to "place faith in Jesus as Messiah?"

Enough.

In a scriptural debate about the person and role of the Messiah, there are clear differences between Torah Jews and Christians. This is bound to find expression in the views expressed.

When it comes to knowledge of God, this is also a view based on scripture. Maybe you didn't read what Jeremiah wrote? Jeremiah 31:34.
If this knowledge of God exists now, why should it be made a promise for the future? Torah Jews will tell you that Jeremiah's prophecy refers to the Messianic age.

If you really have no interest in the scriptures, why discuss them?

Left Coast · Jul 11, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
When it comes to knowledge of God, this is also a view based on scripture. Maybe you didn't read what Jeremiah wrote? Jeremiah 31:34.
If this knowledge of God exists now, why should it be made a promise for the future? Torah Jews will tell you that Jeremiah's prophecy refers to the Messianic age.

But that prophesied level of knowledge hasn't happened yet either. So it's still future, even for Christians. It had nothing to do with Jesus in the mind of the person who actually wrote the text.

If you really have no interest in the scriptures, why discuss them?

I have an interest in the Bible. Part of my interest is in what we can objectively know and understand about the texts as they were written, and not simply what preachers and apologists claim about the texts and the interpretations they insert into them.

In other words, my interest is primarily academic, not devotional or apologetic. So we approach the texts with different intentions.

If the intent of your thread is simply to tell Jews that they should be Christians, then just come out and say that. If instead you want to have a serious discussion about what is meant in a Psalm written hundreds of years before Jesus was a twinkle in his mother's eye, that's going to require you to lay down some of your preconceived ideas when you analyze the text.

Redemptionsong · Jul 12, 2022

Left Coast said:
But that prophesied level of knowledge hasn't happened yet either. So it's still future, even for Christians. It had nothing to do with Jesus in the mind of the person who actually wrote the text.

I have an interest in the Bible. Part of my interest is in what we can objectively know and understand about the texts as they were written, and not simply what preachers and apologists claim about the texts and the interpretations they insert into them.

In other words, my interest is primarily academic, not devotional or apologetic. So we approach the texts with different intentions.

If the intent of your thread is simply to tell Jews that they should be Christians, then just come out and say that. If instead you want to have a serious discussion about what is meant in a Psalm written hundreds of years before Jesus was a twinkle in his mother's eye, that's going to require you to lay down some of your preconceived ideas when you analyze the text.

IMO, true objectivity rests with God alone. I would far sooner know what you understand from the scriptures you read, than to be told 'Jews would disagree'!

If you have a point of view to express then make it your own! Is this not the accusation you made against me?

Left Coast · Jul 12, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
IMO, true objectivity rests with God alone.

Well if she shows up, she can put in her two cents. For now, it's just us mortals. But we can do a decent job getting to objectivity if we try.

I would far sooner know what you understand from the scriptures you read, than to be told 'Jews would disagree'!

This thread is about a Jewish text. Obviously what Jews think about the text, how they've historically understood it, etc. is relevant.

If you have a point of view to express then make it your own! Is this not the accusation you made against me?

No, it isn't. I asked you not to proselytize.

I have made several points. One of which you didn't even reply to in the post of mine you just quoted.

Redemptionsong · Jul 12, 2022

Left Coast said:
Well if she shows up, she can put in her two cents. For now, it's just us mortals. But we can do a decent job getting to objectivity if we try.

This thread is about a Jewish text. Obviously what Jews think about the text, how they've historically understood it, etc. is relevant.

No, it isn't. I asked you not to proselytize.

I have made several points. One of which you didn't even reply to in the post of mine you just quoted.

IMO, there is a very fine line between proselytizing and expressing an opinion one holds to be true. In many cases simply adding 'IMO' is enough to make the difference!

In response to your points, l believe that God has already shown up! The meaning of the title 'Immanuel' is 'God with us'. [lsaiah 7:14] Moreover, through the gift of Holy Spirit Christ remains 'with us'.

Let's not forget that the texts that make up the Tanakh are part of the Christian Bible! Furthermore, Jesus Christ came 'to his own', and all the apostles were Jewish.

Gentiles just happen, so far, to have been more open to the message of God's salvation than the majority of Jews! [See lsaiah 11:10]

Left Coast · Jul 12, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
IMO, there is a very fine line between proselytizing and expressing an opinion one holds to be true. In many cases simply adding 'IMO' is enough to make the difference!

Not really. If you're attempting to get people to convert to your religion, that's proselytism. And you'll be moderated as such.

In response to your points, l believe that God has already shown up! The meaning of the title 'Immanuel' is 'God with us'. [lsaiah 7:14] Moreover, through the gift of Holy Spirit Christ remains 'with us'.

Jesus and the Holy Spirit aren't here in the thread either, though. If they'd like to give their opinions, they're free to show up and do so. Thus far they've stayed quiet.

Let's not forget that the texts that make up the Tanakh are part of the Christian Bible! Furthermore, Jesus Christ came 'to his own', and all the apostles were Jewish.

Gentiles just happen, so far, to have been more open to the message of God's salvation than the majority of Jews! [See lsaiah 11:10]

That your religion has adopted texts that were originally Jewish doesn't change the fact that they were originally Jewish. So if we want to understand their context and the author's intent, we need to understand Jewish thought.

TransmutingSoul · Jul 12, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
Psalm 14:5. 'They were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous'.

Who are 'the generation of the righteous'?

It could be seen that they are the ones that embrace the 'Word of God' in the age God has sent the Messenger.

So in the time of Jesus the Christ it was the Christains. In the time of Muhammad it was the Muslims. In the lightening age of the Bab it was the Babi's and in this current age it is those that embrace the Message of Baha’u’llah.

Yet when contemplating that, it is not something I would attribute to my own self.

Regards Tony

Redemptionsong · Jul 12, 2022

Left Coast said:
Not really. If you're attempting to get people to convert to your religion, that's proselytism. And you'll be moderated as such.

Jesus and the Holy Spirit aren't here in the thread either, though. If they'd like to give their opinions, they're free to show up and do so. Thus far they've stayed quiet.

That your religion has adopted texts that were originally Jewish doesn't change the fact that they were originally Jewish. So if we want to understand their context and the author's intent, we need to understand Jewish thought.

It's a bit a joke having you come to a scriptural forum to dictate the terms of discussion!

Scripture refers to sacred writings. Christians regard the Bible as sacred because they see it as God's inspired word. The Tanakh is sacred to Jews, not because they believe it to be the word of man, but because they believe it to be the word of God.

And you, as an atheist, are now trying to dictate terms.

The real issues that exist between Torah Jews and Christians are issues about interpretation. This is a mine field to navigate because Jews disagree amongst themselves over interpretation; so to ask for a Jewish perspective is not as simple as it appears! Furthermore, Jesus and the apostles were all Jewish, so they offer a Jewish perspective that cannot be dismissed.

Redemptionsong · Jul 12, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
It could be seen that they are the ones that embrace the 'Word of God' in the age God has sent the Messenger.

So in the time of Jesus the Christ it was the Christains. In the time of Muhammad it was the Muslims. In the lightening age of the Bab it was the Babi's and in this current age it is those that embrace the Message of Baha’u’llah.

Yet when contemplating that, it is not something I would attribute to my own self.

Regards Tony

Hi Tony,
The Bible does not appear to mention either Muhammad or Bab! It also begins with the creation of heaven and earth [Genesis 1:1], and ends with a new heaven and earth [Rev.21:1]. What bit of human history is not encompassed by this divine plan of redemption?

Left Coast · Jul 12, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
It's a bit a joke having you come to a scriptural forum to dictate the terms of discussion!

The terms of the discussion are the same across debate areas. Rule 8 still applies.

Scripture refers to sacred writings. Christians regard the Bible as sacred because they see it as God's inspired word. The Tanakh is sacred to Jews, not because they believe it to be the word of man, but because they believe it to be the word of God.

Yes, I know that. I explained this already. The Scriptures of religions can be analyzed from multiple perspectives. I approach them academically most of the time.

And you, as an atheist, are now trying to dictate terms.

I'm reminding you of the rules of the site.

The real issues that exist between Torah Jews and Christians are issues about interpretation. This is a mine field to navigate because Jews disagree amongst themselves over interpretation; so to ask for a Jewish perspective is not as simple as it appears!

The same applies to Christian perspectives on Bible interpretation. Yet Jewish perspectives are still relevant to understanding a Jewish text.

Furthermore, Jesus and the apostles were all Jewish, so they offer a Jewish perspective that cannot be dismissed.

Of course. What did Jesus or the Apostles say about the verse you asked about in the OP? Did they ever quote it? How did their perspectives differ from other Jewish views?

TransmutingSoul · Jul 12, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
Hi Tony,
The Bible does not appear to mention either Muhammad or Bab! It also begins with the creation of heaven and earth [Genesis 1:1], and ends with a new heaven and earth [Rev.21:1]. What bit of human history is not encompassed by this divine plan of redemption?

Thank you for the response.

I see the Bible not only mentions Muhammad, the Islamic Nation, the Bab as the Gate, the Lamb of Revelation, but it also mentions Baha'u'llah constantly as the 'Glory of God', or 'Glory of the Lord' and with many other titles.

A new heaven and new earth is the New Message and laws given by God. This is why Jesus was to come with a New Name, there would be a New Jerusalem and Jesus the Son, would return as the 'Glory of God' the Father, which is Baha'u'llah.

Of course, IMHO, but that information has been available commencing in 1844 but was being predicted at the turn of the 19th century.

Such are our choices of being born again.

Regards Tony

Redemptionsong · Jul 13, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
Thank you for the response.

I see the Bible not only mentions Muhammad, the Islamic Nation, the Bab as the Gate, the Lamb of Revelation, but it also mentions Baha'u'llah constantly as the 'Glory of God', or 'Glory of the Lord' and with many other titles.

A new heaven and new earth is the New Message and laws given by God. This is why Jesus was to come with a New Name, there would be a New Jerusalem and Jesus the Son, would return as the 'Glory of God' the Father, which is Baha'u'llah.

Of course, IMHO, but that information has been available commencing in 1844 but was being predicted at the turn of the 19th century.

Such are our choices of being born again.

Regards Tony

The problem is that scripture clearly states that there is only one mediator between God and men. It is not said to be Muhammad, or Baha'ullah!

1 Timothy 2:5. 'For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.'

How do you explain this exclusive claim?

TransmutingSoul · Jul 13, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
The problem is that scripture clearly states that there is only one mediator between God and men. It is not said to be Muhammad, or Baha'ullah!

1 Timothy 2:5. 'For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.'

How do you explain this exclusive claim?

Thank you for the question. I personally see that passage in a different light, I do not see it was offered in the light as an eternally exclusive statement, but applicable to a each 'Day of God'. There was also made at that time many promises yet to come.

I see this passage explains the station of the Messenger, and the Claim current amongst humamity. When the Message was given, it was to that Mediator, Jesus we were to turn and to no other. The requirements for that age were given by God through the Mediator, then known as Jesus, Annointed of the Holy Spirit. Baha'u'llah has explained this in great detail now.

There are important considerations we need to identify in the verse you have quoted. The verse is saying Jesus was Christ, Christ is not a surname, it is the station of the Mediator, it means Annointed One, annointed of the Holy Spirit.

This is important, because when Jesus asked Peter who he thought Jesus was, Peter replied that you are Christ. This is that verse.

"... Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven..."

Now we can use logic. Jesus said the flesh amounts to nothing and it is the Sprit that is the light and life. The Father is not Jesus as the verse shows the Father was in Heaven and we know the Father was yet to come. The Father is of the same Holy Spirit and thus Jesus could offer as the Christ, that the Father and I are One.

Baha'u'llah wrote to the Pope and offered this,

"O POPE! Rend the veils asunder. He Who is the Lord of Lords is come overshadowed with clouds, and the decree hath been fulfilled by God, the Almighty, the Unrestrained… He, verily, hath again come down from Heaven even as He came down from it the first time. Beware that thou dispute not with Him even as the Pharisees disputed with Him (Jesus) without a clear token or proof.... The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous… This is the day whereon the Rock (Peter) crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: ‘Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!…’ My body longeth for the cross, and Mine head waiteth the thrust of the spear, in the path of the All-Merciful, that the world may be purged from its transgressions…."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 83-86

Much can be discussed if you so choose to.

Regards Tony

Redemptionsong · Jul 13, 2022

TransmutingSoul said:
Thank you for the question. I personally see that passage in a different light, I do not see it was offered in the light as an eternally exclusive statement, but applicable to a each 'Day of God'. There was also made at that time many promises yet to come.

I see this passage explains the station of the Messenger, and the Claim current amongst humamity. When the Message was given, it was to that Mediator, Jesus we were to turn and to no other. The requirements for that age were given by God through the Mediator, then known as Jesus, Annointed of the Holy Spirit. Baha'u'llah has explained this in great detail now.

There are important considerations we need to identify in the verse you have quoted. The verse is saying Jesus was Christ, Christ is not a surname, it is the station of the Mediator, it means Annointed One, annointed of the Holy Spirit.

This is important, because when Jesus asked Peter who he thought Jesus was, Peter replied that you are Christ. This is that verse.

"... Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven..."

Now we can use logic. Jesus said the flesh amounts to nothing and it is the Sprit that is the light and life. The Father is not Jesus as the verse shows the Father was in Heaven and we know the Father was yet to come. The Father is of the same Holy Spirit and thus Jesus could offer as the Christ, that the Father and I are One.

Baha'u'llah wrote to the Pope and offered this,

"O POPE! Rend the veils asunder. He Who is the Lord of Lords is come overshadowed with clouds, and the decree hath been fulfilled by God, the Almighty, the Unrestrained… He, verily, hath again come down from Heaven even as He came down from it the first time. Beware that thou dispute not with Him even as the Pharisees disputed with Him (Jesus) without a clear token or proof.... The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous… This is the day whereon the Rock (Peter) crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: ‘Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!…’ My body longeth for the cross, and Mine head waiteth the thrust of the spear, in the path of the All-Merciful, that the world may be purged from its transgressions…."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 83-86

Much can be discussed if you so choose to.

Regards Tony

I agree that the Spirit of the Father was in Jesus, making him Christ, but to suggest that there is more than one Christ seems to go against the teaching of the NT.

In Ephesians 4:6 it says, 'One Lord, one faith, one baptism'. So who is the Lord? What is the one faith? What is the baptism that all should experience?

TransmutingSoul · Jul 13, 2022

Redemptionsong said:
I agree that the Spirit of the Father was in Jesus, making him Christ, but to suggest that there is more than one Christ seems to go against the teaching of the NT.

In Ephesians 4:6 it says, 'One Lord, one faith, one baptism'. So who is the Lord? What is the one faith? What is the baptism that all should experience?

This is indeed showing is the Oneness of all the Messengers. That there is One God who sends all the Messengers.

All we can know of God is the Messengers, the One Faith is recognition of them One and All, the Baptisim is acceptance of them One and All, and not rejecting the Messenger in the age we live. That is what it is to be born again in the age we live.

Here is a view on the Christ's before Jesus.

The many "Christs" and "Messiahs" that preceded Jesus

This can be explained in greater clarity, but sorry I am only on a short break from work.

Regards Tony

The Generation of the Righteous

Redemptionsong

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Left Coast

This Is Water

Redemptionsong

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Left Coast

This Is Water

Redemptionsong

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Left Coast

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Redemptionsong

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Left Coast

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Left Coast

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