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If Jesus Christ is Almighty God then why are we to pray to God through Jesus Christ?

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
I believe that is false. God is not two different people. He is only one person in Jesus ie using the definition of person as a living human being.

So was He not aware of this when talking to Himself often?

How could the Father be in Heaven while Jesus was on earth?

Also how could Stephan see Christ on Gods right hand if they are the same person?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Christians have ALWAYS believed Jesus is God!.

Jesus is God...
God incarnate... God become man! John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

14 "The WORD BECAME FLESH!"

paarsurrey God the Father "BEGOT" the son through Mary! Until Jesus was born as man he was "The Word" of God! Through the WORD all things were made!
John 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
paarsurrey The words of Jesus... as we are one.

John 17:22
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one

John 20:28
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

paarsurrey Christians are Blessed because they believe as Thomas! Clearly those who reject Jesus is God are NOT Blessed!

Arius WAS a Christians he was AMONG Christians until he taught Jesus is NOT God!
Christians rejected Arius as a "False Teacher"!

paarsurrey This is scripture Prophesy; This holds true with the False Teacher Arius! Christians were NOT AMONG Arius, the prophesy can only work in the one direction "Arius WAS AMONG Christians"!
2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute
.

paarsurrey verse #2 proves those who reject Jesus is God are OUTSIDE of the Way Of Truth; They are those who believe as the False Teacher Arius!
" Christians have ALWAYS believed Jesus is God!. "

So, one acknowledges that it is the Hellenist-Pauline-Christians' claim and not the claim of Yeshua's ; and he was never a "Christian" but the Jewish Messiah, one gathers, please. Right?

Regards
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How is it to be justified as a belief that in order for God to hear our prayers we need to pray through Jesus Christ, in which certain belief systems claim that Jesus Christ is God to whom we are to pray to?
There are five versions of Jesus in the NT ─ those of Paul and the respective authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. Of these five, those of Paul and the author of John are gnostic in outlook. The other three are not.

And unlike the other three, the Jesuses of Paul and of John pre-existed in heaven with God and (1 Corinthians 8:6, John 1:3) created the material universe, in the role of the gnostic demiurge ("craftsman"). The reason it happened that way is because the gnostic god is so exquisitely pure spirit that it would never occur to [him] to have anything to do with a material world, and [he] exists at a great distance from it. For those reasons, in gnosticism an intermediary between God and man is required.

While the idea of Jesus as mediator or advocate for humans has versions in the synoptics as well, the pre-existing and the creating of the universe are unique to Paul and John, and I can't think of an equivalent of John 17 in Paul or other gospels.
Another way of asking the same question is, ‘How is Jesus Christ the same GOD that we are praying to when we pray through him?’
The answer to this won't be found in the gospels, where each of the five versions of Jesus expressly denies he's God.

Jesus doesn't become God until the invention of the Trinity doctrine in the fourth century CE. The doctrine is peculiar in that the churches themselves admit it's incoherent, though the expression they prefer is "a mystery in the strict sense". But a mystery in the strict sense "cannot be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation nor cogently demonstrated by reason once it has been revealed" ─ their words, not mine ─ and if you work through that idea you'll find that it's the same thing as "a nonsense".

The incoherence problem would go away if the churches were to admit that the Trinity doctrine creates three gods, but that would create another problem, namely how does the Trinity decide things? One vote each? Father knows best? How?

But while the standard version remains, another incoherence follows. If there is only one will between them then God is only one person, who can appear in any of three forms (which is of course denied). But if each of the three has [his] own will, then how are decisions made? If there are no differences, no disagreements, then there is indeed only one will. But if God doesn't like idea X and Jesus and the Ghost are all for it, who wins? What is God's view of the matter? More incoherence, as you can see.
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
How is it to be justified as a belief that in order for God to hear our prayers we need to pray through Jesus Christ, in which certain belief systems claim that Jesus Christ is God to whom we are to pray to?

Another way of asking the same question is, ‘How is Jesus Christ the same GOD that we are praying to when we pray through him?’

Also, how is Jesus Christ then different to God such that we pray through Jesus Christ in order to reach the ears of ‘another’ whom is God?

To me, the scriptures, and even Jesus Christ, says that he (Jesus Christ) is a man, a human Being, but a human without sin. And that is the crux that makes it work for me: That because, and only because, Jesus Christ is sinless, analogous to the high priest in the temple, our prayers can only reach THE ALMIGHTY GOD through him, that one considered holy and sinless. In other words, Jesus Christ, like the high priest (and Jesus Christ is himself also a high priest!!) acts as a filter for our prayers to the almighty king, the God of Heaven, Yahweh. This therefore answers my own question saying, ‘No, Jesus Christ is not almighty God’…

But what do you say and how do you justify your ideas on this using scriptures alone?
But - you didn't use the scriptures alone...
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I believe that is false. God is not two different people. He is only one person in Jesus ie using the definition of person as a living human being.
Your belief is confused… You are trying to say two different things - as an objection and as a confirmation at the same time.

1) The definition of a person is not limited to human Beings. A ‘Person’ is an entity with intelligence and free-will (God; Humans; Angels)

2) God is not two different persons… that’s a trinity defence based on reverse psychology. Plus, trinity claims God is three person: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

And ‘God’, itself, is not a person. ‘God’ is the TITLE of a PERSON who is ultimate in a category of things.

We say that the Deity we worship is our God.

We don’t use the word ‘Deity’ these days since we believe in only ONE such person… we simply say ‘God’, which avoids having to define whom we are referring to: a short cut, in effect.

And you will see that ‘our God’ is akin to ‘our King’ or ‘our Monarch’… TITLES, … titles which are placed upon the ultimate leaders of the category of RULING PERSONS (in the cases above, in human society and of a country or realm! Which relates to ‘God’ being ‘King/Monarch’ of Heaven (Spirit realm) and the created world (Physical realm).

A ruler cannot be three persons. What point of purpose is there to three rulers who are each ALL MIGHTY and each having the exact same Will?

YET are each INDEPENDENT?

YET one of these SAME ‘GOD’ submits to ONE of the other self-same ‘GOD’ (aka: himself!!)?

And the third SAME ‘God’ submits to BOTH the other two self-same ‘God’ even to the point of IMPOSSIBLY ‘Acquiring knowledge and abilities’ of one of the others (‘It (the spirit of God) will take of what is mine (the man, Jesus Christ) and give it to you (apostles)’
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
How is it to be justified as a belief that in order for God to hear our prayers we need to pray through Jesus Christ, in which certain belief systems claim that Jesus Christ is God to whom we are to pray to?

Another way of asking the same question is, ‘How is Jesus Christ the same GOD that we are praying to when we pray through him?’

Also, how is Jesus Christ then different to God such that we pray through Jesus Christ in order to reach the ears of ‘another’ whom is God?

To me, the scriptures, and even Jesus Christ, says that he (Jesus Christ) is a man, a human Being, but a human without sin. And that is the crux that makes it work for me: That because, and only because, Jesus Christ is sinless, analogous to the high priest in the temple, our prayers can only reach THE ALMIGHTY GOD through him, that one considered holy and sinless. In other words, Jesus Christ, like the high priest (and Jesus Christ is himself also a high priest!!) acts as a filter for our prayers to the almighty king, the God of Heaven, Yahweh. This therefore answers my own question saying, ‘No, Jesus Christ is not almighty God’

But what do you say and how do you justify your ideas on this using scriptures alone?

Sometimes you can't get a phone call through to the boss, so you have to talk to the secretary. One ringy dingy, two ringy dingies (Lily Thomlin).

Trinity: Father (God), son (Jesus), holy spirit (Christ).

Jesus was buried. He was the half-God that was a vessel for the Christ spirit. Once dead, Jesus didn't rise again (his spirit, Christ, rose).
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
How is it to be justified as a belief that in order for God to hear our prayers we need to pray through Jesus Christ, in which certain belief systems claim that Jesus Christ is God to whom we are to pray to?

Another way of asking the same question is, ‘How is Jesus Christ the same GOD that we are praying to when we pray through him?’

Also, how is Jesus Christ then different to God such that we pray through Jesus Christ in order to reach the ears of ‘another’ whom is God?

To me, the scriptures, and even Jesus Christ, says that he (Jesus Christ) is a man, a human Being, but a human without sin. And that is the crux that makes it work for me: That because, and only because, Jesus Christ is sinless, analogous to the high priest in the temple, our prayers can only reach THE ALMIGHTY GOD through him, that one considered holy and sinless. In other words, Jesus Christ, like the high priest (and Jesus Christ is himself also a high priest!!) acts as a filter for our prayers to the almighty king, the God of Heaven, Yahweh. This therefore answers my own question saying, ‘No, Jesus Christ is not almighty God’…

But what do you say and how do you justify your ideas on this using scriptures alone?
You're in a bit of a predicament, aren't you?

God is not a man
Jesus was a man
Therefore, Jesus cannot be God

Only God is sinless
Jesus was sinless
Therefore, Jesus is God

God is the only Saviour
Jesus saves
Therefore, Jesus is God

So, which is it to be? Or, can you see the solution?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
There are five versions of Jesus in the NT ─ those of Paul and the respective authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. Of these five, those of Paul and the author of John are gnostic in outlook. The other three are not.

And unlike the other three, the Jesuses of Paul and of John pre-existed in heaven with God and (1 Corinthians 8:6, John 1:3) created the material universe, in the role of the gnostic demiurge ("craftsman"). The reason it happened that way is because the gnostic god is so exquisitely pure spirit that it would never occur to [him] to have anything to do with a material world, and [he] exists at a great distance from it. For those reasons, in gnosticism an intermediary between God and man is required.

While the idea of Jesus as mediator or advocate for humans has versions in the synoptics as well, the pre-existing and the creating of the universe are unique to Paul and John, and I can't think of an equivalent of John 17 in Paul or other gospels.
The answer to this won't be found in the gospels, where each of the five versions of Jesus expressly denies he's God.

Jesus doesn't become God until the invention of the Trinity doctrine in the fourth century CE. The doctrine is peculiar in that the churches themselves admit it's incoherent, though the expression they prefer is "a mystery in the strict sense". But a mystery in the strict sense "cannot be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation nor cogently demonstrated by reason once it has been revealed" ─ their words, not mine ─ and if you work through that idea you'll find that it's the same thing as "a nonsense".

The incoherence problem would go away if the churches were to admit that the Trinity doctrine creates three gods, but that would create another problem, namely how does the Trinity decide things? One vote each? Father knows best? How?

But while the standard version remains, another incoherence follows. If there is only one will between them then God is only one person, who can appear in any of three forms (which is of course denied). But if each of the three has [his] own will, then how are decisions made? If there are no differences, no disagreements, then there is indeed only one will. But if God doesn't like idea X and Jesus and the Ghost are all for it, who wins? What is God's view of the matter? More incoherence, as you can see.
this would be categorically wrong in all points. IMO
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
Which aspect of what I asked or said is not from scriptures alone?
The Israelites never prayed through the High Priest. He was never a "filter".

He performed ordinances on behalf of Israel - but they were all free to pray to God without him.

To my knowledge - the Lord Jesus Christ never used the name Yahweh in reference to God.

It also ignores the times when the Lord Jesus Christ spoke as if He Himself were Yahweh - like when He lamented over Jerusalem -

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matthew 23:37)

Or when Thomas exclaimed, "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." (John 20:28) when he saw the Resurrected Lord.

This isn't even to mention all the Old Testament references to Yahweh being the only "Savior" who would "Redeem".

I believe there is more evidence to suggest that the Lord Jesus Christ was Yahweh and He commands that we all pray to the Father by His name.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
If Jesus Christ is Almighty God then why are we to pray to God through Jesus Christ?

Jesus strictly speaking Yeshua- the Jewish Messiah, never claimed to be the almighty G-d, if yes, then please quote from him. Right?
Yeshua- the Jewish Messiah, himself prayed directly to the Almighty G-d, whom he addressed as God-the-Father, so following his example everybody must, one gathers, pray to the almighty G-d directly without any intercession of anybody, I understand. Right?

Regards
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
You're in a bit of a predicament, aren't you?

God is not a man
Jesus was a man
Therefore, Jesus cannot be God

Only God is sinless
Jesus was sinless
Therefore, Jesus is God

God is the only Saviour
Jesus saves
Therefore, Jesus is God

So, which is it to be? Or, can you see the solution?
God is not a man
Jesus was a man
Therefore, Jesus cannot be God
Set your premises in any order and the result is still the same:
  • True + False + False + False = False
Once you establish that Jesus is not God (because jesus is a man) in any position of your premises no other premise matters.

So, it is you who has the predicament.

Being sinless is a state that Jesus has to strive to maintain: God is eternally sinless and incapable of sinning therefore maintaining a sinless state is not an issue for God.

God APPOINTED Jesus as the saviour: That’s what occurred at Jesus’ baptism. God never leaves his holy ethereal throne in Heaven and therefore, to show mankind that man CAN LIVE without sinning, God appointed Jesus, who for 30 years, lived a sinless life (albeit he was not TEMPTED ‘in the world’ during those years). Appointing a ‘DOER OF HIS WORD’ does not make the ‘doer’ the God that made him so! Spiritually, One does not ‘become God!’

You didn’t really think out your post, did you!!
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
The Israelites never prayed through the High Priest. He was never a "filter".

He performed ordinances on behalf of Israel - but they were all free to pray to God without him.

To my knowledge - the Lord Jesus Christ never used the name Yahweh in reference to God.

It also ignores the times when the Lord Jesus Christ spoke as if He Himself were Yahweh - like when He lamented over Jerusalem -

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matthew 23:37)

Or when Thomas exclaimed, "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." (John 20:28) when he saw the Resurrected Lord.

This isn't even to mention all the Old Testament references to Yahweh being the only "Savior" who would "Redeem".

I believe there is more evidence to suggest that the Lord Jesus Christ was Yahweh and He commands that we all pray to the Father by His name.
Nothing you just said is of validity in response to my question. Perhaps you are carrying over a debate with someone else from somewhere else!!

But just so don’t think I’m evading answering:
The Israelites never prayed through the High Priest. He was never a "filter".
To “PRAY” means to offer a PETITION to a greater entity. This is what is done during a worship event. The petitioner is requesting something from HIM whom he regards as his ULTIMATE MAJESTY (‘God’ for short). In a courtroom, an accused must speak (make his petition) through a barrister/Lawyer. He cannot speak directly with the judge. The lawyer/Barrister ‘filters’ the testament of the accused so that only sanitised words reach the ears of the judge. This is the same with the sinner and the high priest to God.
He performed ordinances on behalf of Israel - but they were all free to pray to God without him.
Prayers requested directly to God are in danger of blasphemy. Just as an accused who represents himself in court is in danger of making disreputable requests to the judge.
To my knowledge - the Lord Jesus Christ never used the name Yahweh in reference to God.
That’s right… AS FAR AS WE KNOW from scriptures. But this is only because of the Jews who considered that speaking the eternal name of God was blasphemous since they themselves misused the name in their petitions and oaths - and the fear of such further blasphemy by misuse lay greatly on their conscience.
It also ignores the times when the Lord Jesus Christ spoke as if He Himself were Yahweh - like when He lamented over Jerusalem -

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matthew 23:37)
Jesus never spoke as though he were God. Jesus was sent By God to save the Jews, the prayer is reflective of one who desires to do what he was sent to do… simple.
Or when Thomas exclaimed, "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." (John 20:28) when he saw the Resurrected Lord.
Dreary …. This shows you have no idea and have resorted to scraping under the bottom of the proverbial barrel. In that scenario Jesus STATED to Thomas that he (Jesus) was ‘NOT A SPIRIT’. And even you would admit that ‘GOD IS SPIRIT’. Further, Jesus told the Jews, ‘Why do you accuse me - A MAN WHO WAS CONSECRATED BY GOD - of blasphemy…’
This isn't even to mention all the Old Testament references to Yahweh being the only "Savior" who would "Redeem".
The Old Testament reference to ‘only Saviour’ is referring to ‘NO OTHER GODS’. The God of the Jews had not yet sent the one THROUGH WHOM he would save the world (See Isaiah 42:1).

Who is ‘the saviour’? The president who sends an emissary to save the lives of prisoners of war in Iran, or the emissary to carries out the act in the name of the president after being fully briefed as to what he should say and do BY the president? But that’s actually not what is being referred to in the Old Testament.
I believe there is more evidence to suggest that the Lord Jesus Christ was Yahweh and He commands that we all pray to the Father by His name.
If that is your belief then it is no wonder that you err so badly in your other thoughts and ideas. The major error in your calculation only leads to greater errors in all your other calculations as the calculations you make are multiplied.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Set your premises in any order and the result is still the same:
  • True + False + False + False = False
Once you establish that Jesus is not God (because jesus is a man) in any position of your premises no other premise matters.

So, it is you who has the predicament.

Being sinless is a state that Jesus has to strive to maintain: God is eternally sinless and incapable of sinning therefore maintaining a sinless state is not an issue for God.

God APPOINTED Jesus as the saviour: That’s what occurred at Jesus’ baptism. God never leaves his holy ethereal throne in Heaven and therefore, to show mankind that man CAN LIVE without sinning, God appointed Jesus, who for 30 years, lived a sinless life (albeit he was not TEMPTED ‘in the world’ during those years). Appointing a ‘DOER OF HIS WORD’ does not make the ‘doer’ the God that made him so! Spiritually, One does not ‘become God!’

You didn’t really think out your post, did you!!
You think that Jesus can be without sin and still be a man? If that's the case then you don't accept the scriptures as God's inspired word!

Listen carefully to the words of Paul in Romans 5:12. 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:'

Is Jesus not a man? In fact, to you Jesus is nothing more than a man!
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
(Clears throat.).." Um.. .I sometimes pray directly to Jesus, not just in his name."
"In fact I sometimes pray directly to the Holy Spirit too."
(Gets ready to duck.)
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Set your premises in any order and the result is still the same:
  • True + False + False + False = False
Once you establish that Jesus is not God (because jesus is a man) in any position of your premises no other premise matters.

So, it is you who has the predicament.

Being sinless is a state that Jesus has to strive to maintain: God is eternally sinless and incapable of sinning therefore maintaining a sinless state is not an issue for God.

God APPOINTED Jesus as the saviour: That’s what occurred at Jesus’ baptism. God never leaves his holy ethereal throne in Heaven and therefore, to show mankind that man CAN LIVE without sinning, God appointed Jesus, who for 30 years, lived a sinless life (albeit he was not TEMPTED ‘in the world’ during those years). Appointing a ‘DOER OF HIS WORD’ does not make the ‘doer’ the God that made him so! Spiritually, One does not ‘become God!’

You didn’t really think out your post, did you!!
You also say that Jesus is not our Saviour, but scripture tells another story.

Hosea 13:4 'Yet l am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no other god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.'

This passage from Hosea clearly states that God is the only Saviour. Agree?

Then how do you explain John 4:42?
'And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.'
 

InChrist

Free4ever
And...


Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:1-4
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Sometimes you can't get a phone call through to the boss, so you have to talk to the secretary. One ringy dingy, two ringy dingies (Lily Thomlin).
Trinity: Father (God), son (Jesus), holy spirit (Christ).
Jesus was buried. He was the half-God that was a vessel for the Christ spirit. Once dead, Jesus didn't rise again (his spirit, Christ, rose).

Yes, God resurrected dead Jesus (Acts 2:27; 3:15) resurrected Jesus back to his pre-human heavenly spirit body.
Yes, God is a Spirit, a Spirit person. Just like angels are Spirit persons.
God's spirit (Psalms 104:30) is His holy spirit and Not a Spirit person.
Just as in the above posting 'holy spirit' is posted in all lower-case letters because holy spirit is Not a person.
God's spirit is a neuter " it " according to KJV Numbers 11:17,25.
 
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