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Thinking of My American Friends Today

VoidCat

Pronouns: he/him/they/them
Let me tell you my thoughts on this issue. Bodily autonomy is extremely important to me. As I never had it in my life. Not due to abortion and things like that. But due to other reasons. This poem i wrote lists one of those that is how folk have responded to my autism:
Behavior is communication (link embedded)

There's more reasons why my body has never been mine. I don't wish to go into detail about it. But this isn't good. You should never take someone's bodily autonomy away. And some states will take bodily autonomy away. This is part of why im pro choice. A person with a uterus should be able to decide what happens to their body. They shouldn't have their bodily autonomy taken from them.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
but what source are you using to say it went down after it was legalized?

Yours. As it was shown in the table you have presented. Abortions were significantly rarer last year as they were the year Roe v Wade was passed and from the known statistics we have prior to that. In fact abortions have been in decline in the US since the early 80's and the sharp rise in abortion visible from early 70's to the 80's was already present in the partial data from the mid and late 60's and was due to the baby boomer reaching adulthood. There were a lot of young people in age of having sex back then and contraception wasn't exactly widely publicized or popular.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Yours. As it was shown in the table you have presented. Abortions were significantly rarer last year as they were the year Roe v Wade was passed and from the known statistics we have prior to that. In fact abortions have been in decline in the US since the early 80's.
No, I mean the facts that there were less abortions after it was legalized.

Today, abortions have been significantly rarer because greater understanding is now available and people are more aware that it was being pushed emotionally at places like planned parenthood.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Today, abortions have been significantly rarer because greater understanding is now available and people are more aware that it was being pushed emotionally at places like planned parenthood.

If it were true how come abortions are in decline per capita in pretty much every countries? Hell how come the abortion rate of Canada, the country with the easiest and complete access to abortion without any sort of restriction on time (and completely free), has a lower abortion rate than the US despite abortion rights being more supported by the general population and politicians? How come the US has a level of abortion comparable to most developed nation?

In fact abortions have been in decline in the US and pretty much the rest of the developed world since the early 80's and the sharp rise in abortion visible from early 70's to the 80's was already present in the partial data from the mid and late 60's and was due to the baby boomer reaching adulthood. There were a lot of young people in age of having sex back then and contraception wasn't exactly widely publicized or popular. These were major differences between sexually active adults in the 70's and now; we use a lot more contraception now than then and we had more young people than older one's too while now, it's the opposite.

Hell, what's the proof you that first planned parenthood pushes people into abortion, something for which they receive no financement for providing as opposed to other services and that other abortion providers do it to? Considering there is about as much if not more crisis pregnancy centers which I could just as easily say push an emotionally manipulate and lie about abortion to push people to carry pregnancy to term wouldn't those two competing organization efforts cancel each others?

Abortion Before and After Legalization

Abortion bans don’t reduce abortions, they just make them less safe
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
If it were true how come abortions are in decline per capita in pretty much every countries? Hell how come the abortion rate of Canada, the country with the easiest and complete access to abortion without any sort of restriction on time (and completely free), has a lower abortion rate than the US despite abortion rights being more supported by the general population and politicians? How come the US has a level of abortion comparable to most developed nation?

In fact abortions have been in decline in the US and pretty much the rest of the developed world since the early 80's and the sharp rise in abortion visible from early 70's to the 80's was already present in the partial data from the mid and late 60's and was due to the baby boomer reaching adulthood. There were a lot of young people in age of having sex back then and contraception wasn't exactly widely publicized or popular. These were major differences between sexually active adults in the 70's and now; we use a lot more contraception now than then.

Hell, what's the proof you got that first planned parenthood pushes people into abortion and that other abortion providers do it to? Considering there is about as much if not more crisis pregnancy centers which I could just as easily say push an emotionally manipulate and lie about abortion to push people to carry pregnancy to term wouldn't those two competing organization efforts cancel each others?

Abortion Before and After Legalization

Abortion bans don’t reduce abortions, they just make them less safe
from your site:

"It is easy for Americans to forget that illegal abortion was common before the 1973 Supreme Court decisions that legalized the procedure across the nation—and that denying women access to legal abortion does not prevent them from having abortions, but just increases the likelihood that they will resort to an illegal abortion carried out under unsafe conditions. In a 1976 article, researchers from the Center for Disease Control examined national abortion data from the three years surrounding the rulings and estimated that the number of illegal procedures in the country plummeted from around 130,000 to 17,000 between 1972 and 1974. The number of deaths associated with illegal abortion decreased from 39 to five in that same time period; women who died as a result of illegal abortions typically were black, were more than 12 weeks pregnant and had self-induced in their own community. The researchers concluded that abortion services need to be improved and available more widely, especially for women at high risk for seeking illegal abortions, because “any actions which impede their access to legal abortion may increase their risk of death.” More than 40 years later, their words are a potent reminder of the dangers of restricting abortion access."

Of COURSE illegal abortions plummeted after it was legal. Because they no longer had to do it illegally. But it went from 130,000 to 615,000. almost 500% increase.

And deaths went down from 39 to 5? How about legal deaths? "The case-fatality rate reported by the CDC was highest during the first period examined by the agency (1973 to 1977), when it was 2.1 deaths to women per 100,000 legal induced abortions."

at 600,000 = 12,000 death.. ???????? improvement?

No... I think you need to take a second look

Planned Parenthood - look at Veritas.

Worldwide, people are wiser and thus less abortions. IMV
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Planned Parenthood - look at Veritas.

You are aware that Project Veritas is a propaganda outlet that lied about it's planned Parenthood investigation didn't you? They purposefully edited their video to serve their agenda and deceive the public. It wasn't the first nor the only time they would do so or attempt to do so.

Project Veritas - Wikipedia

As for your critique I would enjoy it if you read the other sources I quoted you instead than the one specifically on mortality due to abortion practices. Note that in 1972, abortion was legalized in the entire country, but it was already legal in about 20 States prior to Roe v Wade you did not include the legal abortion performed in those States since they were not the subject of this specific article (thus making your calculus completely useless). The purpose of this link was to show that legalizing abortions saved a lot of women's and the second one does show that making abortion illegal (or severely restricting them) doesn't have any impact on their popularity only on the danger they present to women. That's the one that might interest you more.

After all, don't you think its a bit weird that countries where abortions are largely illegal have about the same number if not slightly more than those who allow them very broadly? How do you explain that? What does it say about your methods?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
You are aware that Project Veritas is a propaganda outlet that lied about it's planned Parenthood investigation didn't you? They purposefully edited their video to serve their agenda and deceive the public. It wasn't the first nor the only time they would do so or attempt to do so.

Project Veritas - Wikipedia

As for your critique I would enjoy it if you read the other sources I quoted you instead than the one specifically on mortality due to abortion practices. Note that in 1972, abortion was legalized in the entire country, but it was already legal in about 20 States prior to Roe v Wade you did not include the legal abortion performed in those States since they were not the subject of this specific article. The purpose of this link was to show that legalizing abortions saved a lot of women's and the second one does show that making abortion illegal (or severely restricting them) doesn't have any impact on their popularity only on the danger they present to women.
No... you need to see the videos. Wikipedia is not a source.

So your first source wasn't good?

Will look at the second
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
from your site:

"It is easy for Americans to forget that illegal abortion was common before the 1973 Supreme Court decisions that legalized the procedure across the nation—and that denying women access to legal abortion does not prevent them from having abortions, but just increases the likelihood that they will resort to an illegal abortion carried out under unsafe conditions. In a 1976 article, researchers from the Center for Disease Control examined national abortion data from the three years surrounding the rulings and estimated that the number of illegal procedures in the country plummeted from around 130,000 to 17,000 between 1972 and 1974. The number of deaths associated with illegal abortion decreased from 39 to five in that same time period; women who died as a result of illegal abortions typically were black, were more than 12 weeks pregnant and had self-induced in their own community. The researchers concluded that abortion services need to be improved and available more widely, especially for women at high risk for seeking illegal abortions, because “any actions which impede their access to legal abortion may increase their risk of death.” More than 40 years later, their words are a potent reminder of the dangers of restricting abortion access."

Of COURSE illegal abortions plummeted after it was legal. Because they no longer had to do it illegally. But it went from 130,000 to 615,000. almost 500% increase.

And deaths went down from 39 to 5? How about legal deaths? "The case-fatality rate reported by the CDC was highest during the first period examined by the agency (1973 to 1977), when it was 2.1 deaths to women per 100,000 legal induced abortions."

at 600,000 = 12,000 death.. ???????? improvement?

No... I think you need to take a second look

Planned Parenthood - look at Veritas.

Worldwide, people are wiser and thus less abortions. IMV
Why blame Planned Parenthood? You are blaming the wrong people. You should be blaming your fellow Republicans. If you knew anything at all about Planned Parenthood abortions are only a small part of their operation. Most of it is doing the same thing that they did before abortions were legal. Their number one action has always been providing free or low cost birth control to poor people. And they succeed. Neighborhoods with a planned parenthood have a lower abortion rate than neighborhoods that do not have one.

If you truly wanted to lower the number of abortions in a Christian way you would support planned parenthood.

And now for the blame part. Republicans are to blame for the higher abortion rates because we do not have the social safety net that European countries do. We do not have the free or very low cost birth control that other countries do. And do you know how is to blame for that? One guess. It starts with "R:.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
No... you need to see the videos.

Those video were edited Ken. That's the entire point.

PS: Wikipedia does give you the source of their claim that they were edited which was a book on propaganda published by a reputed publisher and authored by a professor emeritus in international relation named Daniel Hellinger.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No... you need to see the videos. Wikipedia is not a source.

So your first source wasn't good?

Will look at the second
Actually Wikipedia is a rather reliable source. What makes you think that it is not? You probably have a poor understanding of what it takes to edit an article there.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You are aware that Project Veritas is a propaganda outlet that lied about it's planned Parenthood investigation didn't you? They purposefully edited their video to serve their agenda and deceive the public. It wasn't the first nor the only time they would do so or attempt to do so.

Project Veritas - Wikipedia

As for your critique I would enjoy it if you read the other sources I quoted you instead than the one specifically on mortality due to abortion practices. Note that in 1972, abortion was legalized in the entire country, but it was already legal in about 20 States prior to Roe v Wade you did not include the legal abortion performed in those States since they were not the subject of this specific article (thus making your calculus completely useless). The purpose of this link was to show that legalizing abortions saved a lot of women's and the second one does show that making abortion illegal (or severely restricting them) doesn't have any impact on their popularity only on the danger they present to women. That's the one that might interest you more.

After all, don't you think its a bit weird that countries where abortions are largely illegal have about the same number if not slightly more than those who allow them very broadly? How do you explain that? What does it say about your methods?
But it is okay to lie as long as you lie for Jesus.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
You are aware that Project Veritas is a propaganda outlet that lied about it's planned Parenthood investigation didn't you? They purposefully edited their video to serve their agenda and deceive the public. It wasn't the first nor the only time they would do so or attempt to do so.

Project Veritas - Wikipedia

As for your critique I would enjoy it if you read the other sources I quoted you instead than the one specifically on mortality due to abortion practices. Note that in 1972, abortion was legalized in the entire country, but it was already legal in about 20 States prior to Roe v Wade you did not include the legal abortion performed in those States since they were not the subject of this specific article (thus making your calculus completely useless). The purpose of this link was to show that legalizing abortions saved a lot of women's and the second one does show that making abortion illegal (or severely restricting them) doesn't have any impact on their popularity only on the danger they present to women. That's the one that might interest you more.

After all, don't you think its a bit weird that countries where abortions are largely illegal have about the same number if not slightly more than those who allow them very broadly? How do you explain that? What does it say about your methods?

Second site:

“However, when you consider safety, the picture is different,” WHO said in a statement to Quartz. “In countries where abortion is allowed on broad grounds 9 out of 10 abortions occur safely. But in countries where abortion laws are very restrictive and access to care is limited, only 1 in 4 abortions are safe.”

1 out of 10 are not safe? that is pretty bad odds.

So... if abortions were at

Illegal (1972) 135,000 * .25 = 33,750
Legal (1973) 615,000 * .1 = 61,500

In either case, I wouldn't go for an operation whether by a doctor or doing it myself if those were the odds.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Actually Wikipedia is a rather reliable source. What makes you think that it is not? You probably have a poor understanding of what it takes to edit an article there.
Because I was able to change some information myself. Apparently you have a poor understanding?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Those video were edited Ken. That's the entire point.

PS: Wikipedia does give you the source of their claim that they were edited which was a book on propaganda.

No... apparently you never listened to them.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Second site:

“However, when you consider safety, the picture is different,” WHO said in a statement to Quartz. “In countries where abortion is allowed on broad grounds 9 out of 10 abortions occur safely. But in countries where abortion laws are very restrictive and access to care is limited, only 1 in 4 abortions are safe.”

1 out of 10 are not safe? that is pretty bad odds.

So... if abortions were at

Illegal (1972) 135,000 * .25 = 33,750
Legal (1973) 615,000 * .1 = 61,500

In either case, I wouldn't go for an operation whether by a doctor or doing it myself if those were the odds.

I think you misunderstand what's being said. They say abortions are safe 9 times out of 10 in countries where it's legal meaning that 1 out of 10 is still a "backyard abortion" while in countries where it's not 6 are backyard ones and 4 out of 10 are done with safety comparable to what a legal clinic would offer (so trained personnel, correct market non-altered drugs, etc.).

Again, I note you ignored the portion that said that countries where abortions are broadly illegal don't have less abortions than those who legalize it. What do you say about that fact?
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I think you misunderstand what's being said. They say abortions are safe 9 times out of 10 in countries where it's legal meaning that 1 out of 10 is still a "backyard abortion" while in countries where it's not 6 are backyard ones and 4 out of 10 are done with safety comparable to what a legal clinic would offer (so trained personnel, correct market non-altered drugs, etc.).

Again, I note you ignored the portion that said that countries where abortions are broadly illegal don't have less abortions than those who legalize it. What do you say about that fact?

i think you just don't want to see the figures and when it doesn't match what you want, you move on.

If the sources you gave aren't good, find a good one please
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No... apparently you never listened to them.

I have. They were edited. You can totally change claims by editing them. Are you talking about the recordings where they were discussing the fees for body parts? Do you know how incredibly inexpensive those fees were? They literally only cover the cost of retrieving them. There was no profit there. Your source lied.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I corrected someone else's lie which show how easy it is to have bias
You may have. But if that is what you did you only confirmed that it is valid source. What would show that it was not a valid source is if you posted something false and it was not edited away for an extended period of time. It would also have to be an article of some minor importance at least. Not something that was merely gossip.
 
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